How are those end game loot again? I thought people consider end game motor and automatic weapon parts...
PC Please stop trying to tell us how to play
- Thread starter Desmondbratcat
- Start date
theFlu
Well-known member
End game? Beakers and acid are what gates a chem station.. which is used to fuel your motor tools.
Steel parts, not end game for tools, but still a gating item.
Schematics for tools.. that's the motor tools which you called end game ...?
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Roland
Moderator
I wouldn't call acid, beakers, schematics for weapons and tools, and steel parts endgame loot. But I also wouldn't call them basic loot either. I also wouldn't call them essential loot. You make do with what you can find and adapt to your circumstances.
Use the creative menu or beg the server admin if you want things to be deterministic. You can throw out mats to pretend you crafted it or throw out dukes to pretend you bought it. People find all sorts of things fun and what frustrates and bores one person is exactly the thing that challenges and delights someone else. There are currently ways to mitigate the bad luck-- particularly if you are playing single player so use those ways if you aren't having fun and move on.
TFP is constantly working on fine tuning the balance and the rarity of particular items and that will continue.
Use the creative menu or beg the server admin if you want things to be deterministic. You can throw out mats to pretend you crafted it or throw out dukes to pretend you bought it. People find all sorts of things fun and what frustrates and bores one person is exactly the thing that challenges and delights someone else. There are currently ways to mitigate the bad luck-- particularly if you are playing single player so use those ways if you aren't having fun and move on.
TFP is constantly working on fine tuning the balance and the rarity of particular items and that will continue.
Marinxar
New member
In some things, he has a point.
TFP applied a lot of quick fixes, that don't make a lot of sense.
Demolisher
Learn By Doing removal
Farming Plot block
These come to mind now, I am sure there are more, but these changes make no practical sense, but drastically changed the way the game can be played if you play vanilla.
Well everyone has an opinion I guess. The game is in alpha, players should point out what's wrong with the current system (again, opinions), your advice in essence goes against the very nature of a game in alpha to suit what is your apparent preference for play style.
I don't mind that I don't find a beaker in the first chem lab I hit, I mind that I hit hospitals, chem labs, drug labs, basement meth labs, corporate pharmacy pois and can't find a beaker. You don't care, but a lot of people think this is silly.
SylenThunder
Community Moderator / IT Guru
Ok, lets take a look at your assumptions here.
Demolisher - How exactly is this a "quick fix"? I can even see it tying into the future story line and Bandit situation. It's also a direct replacement for the Behemoth, which was planned but didn't end up working out. A lot of thought and effort went into this. It wasn't just slapped in, and makes perfect sense.
Learn By Doing removal - Nothing quick about this. It's removal began in a15, and finished in a17. And it's not like it was a "surprise!" change either. The developer has openly discussed it's removal, and the type of skill system that they wanted to replace it with since at least Alpha 9. Wasn't quick, and wasn't a "fix". It was the removal of a placeholder system that was heavily exploited by players with a system that the fit the developers views of how they wanted the game to be. Which again, makes perfect sense.
Farming Plot block - Now this one may be the only one here that was a "quick fix". It exists as a result of the new landscape mesh system not making the old style farm plots visible. A lot of work was done in properly balancing it with a number of other changes that also occurred in that build. To say it makes no practical sense only shows that you haven't actually done your research.
And remember, you're playing a game in Alpha development. This is the stage of development where core game features are designed and implemented. It is exactly where you expect major changes in core systems and gameplay across major builds. If you can't deal with that, then you need to learn how to stay away from Early Access.
Crater Creator
Community Moderator
Even if we accept the argument that TFP are basing decisions off of trends in the player base, they saw the player base taking advantage of... what, exactly? Imbalances, that's what. And they reacted in ways one would if one viewed it as balancing, too...
There are still weak and strong spikes in the game you can use. The art & animation has been improved but the mechanics of a cheap, passive, damaging trap and a cheap, passive, slowing trap still exist. And you can also still build pit bases designed to make zombies take damage from long falls. "Less useful" does not make it a moot point. Fall damage was a critical element of my horde base in A19. Less useful is a matter of balance.
I do agree that the digging animation looks bad, and I think applying actions like digging to a subset of zombies would be better. But as I've said many times, this shouldn't be viewed as a battle of wills that either the players or the devs will win. The devs could easily 'win the battle' if they wanted to, because they don't have to play by the rules. They make the rules! If they really felt that underground bases were wrong they could just teleport you above the surface if you try it on horde night, the way they teleport you away from the trader base at night (minus the pragmatic issue of objectively defining what the "surface" means). They didn't do that. They added digging zombies. So we still have player digging, which can now be countered by zombie digging. That's not outsmarting the player base. That's balancing. Or at the least, it's adding the elements necessary to make it possible to balance.
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Kattla
New member
I agree with the OP on the topic of moving on to the rest of the game. Fix gamebreaking bugs, and then move on to the bandits and story.
With those done, then it may be time to optimize and tidy up what they consider exploits of certain building blocks.
Hopefully it is easier to balance stuff once they see the full picture.
With those done, then it may be time to optimize and tidy up what they consider exploits of certain building blocks.
Hopefully it is easier to balance stuff once they see the full picture.
theFlu
Well-known member
Indeed, and you referred to "motor [parts]" as end game for "most people"; I did assume that means you agree. I described how a lot of those are linked to said motorized phase of the game, and steel parts being a gating item, as in not-exactly-basic either.
That's really the most tiresome argument I hear around here to shut down people's opinions. First of all the game was released nearly TEN years ago so instead of "we are going to completely scrap an entire system and redo it" you would think it would be all about refinement and balance at this point.
Second, since the game is in alpha players should be encouraged to speak their minds about changes and purposed changes, not shut down.
SylenThunder
Community Moderator / IT Guru
If you're going to sit and complain about things changing, it's perfectly accurate.
You're free to speak your mind sure. It is encouraged. However completely ignoring actual facts to come up with a dissident opinion is just silly, and should be stopped. Go ahead and read the rest of the post again. It looks like you missed most of the content contained within that the comment you chose to read was directed towards.
RipClaw
Well-known member
First of all you, are a moderator. So you get a view behind the curtain that a normal player don't get. We only get the outside perspective.
Seen from the outside, the balancing of the Demolisher is more the result of Mad Mole's moods than thorough considerations.
Mad Mole made videos back then in which he tried different builds. The Demolisher at that time did more entity damage than block damage. At one horde night, there was a breach in his defenses and the zombies got into his base. Including two demolishers. These then exploded near his chemistry station but the chemistry station survived.
He sounded disappointed that he was not punished for this negligence. The next day, the damage values of the demolisher were flipped and nothing has been changed since then, to my knowledge.
It was often criticized that the Demolisher is both a tank but also does a lot of damage. Usually either one or the other is the case but never both at the same time.
Again from the outsider perspective, the transition was very quick. A16 had a hybrid system and after 16.4 also solved the spamcrafting problem, it seemed perfect.
Yes there were some players who still hugged a cactus for hours or shot ore with a shotgun. The same players now light campfires and summon screamer hordes. This is a mindset and has nothing to do with any particular progression system.
Then in A17 the learning by doing was gone and I don't need to mention how bad the start of A17 was.
By the way, not everyone reads the forum. Most players only see what was released and sometimes they don't even read the release notes.
In the beginning, the farm plots were very expensive. It took a long time until you had enough rotten meat. Especially since the zombies no longer gave rotten meat. At that time I regularly visited the Doggos and Bear Den to take advantage of the respawn. When the roadkills were added, it got a little better.
Viktoriusiii
New member
@RipClaw very happy to see that there are still users fighting the good fight.
Everything you say I agree with.
16.4 was the best progression system to date
abusers will always exist. Overhauling an entire system because a few players did that is ludicrous
the demolisher not having a single way to counter him is absolutely stupid (shooting his light for a fraction of his hp should deal massive damage to him and deactivate the bomb, not trigger it!)
and farmplots... are alright. In an apocalyptic wasteland, the ground might be irradiated. Fair enough. But now they are no longer the limiting factor, so why do they still exist/are mandatory for farming?
Everything TFPs do feels like you said, like a mood swing. Trying out stuff is nice, but they never think things through. What it affects, how it interacts with the rest of the game. If I had one statement that they would be able to read it is:
"Think things through. Hell I'll even raise these points for free if you ask nicely." because basically every change is a cluster**** and gets patched up with bandaids.
Examples:
And there is much MUCH more that I can't remember because it has been 8 years already.
I just want them to think about it before they implement something, instead of applying a bandaid afterward.
It is like they see a problem and jump on the solution, without questioning it first or doing some more research.
OBVIOUSLY they do... but that is what it feels like. Issues that are pretty obvious, or should be, to those that know what is coming...
Well... my vacation is over tomorrow, so this might be my last rant for quite some time
Hope you enjoyed it
Everything you say I agree with.
16.4 was the best progression system to date
abusers will always exist. Overhauling an entire system because a few players did that is ludicrous
the demolisher not having a single way to counter him is absolutely stupid (shooting his light for a fraction of his hp should deal massive damage to him and deactivate the bomb, not trigger it!)
and farmplots... are alright. In an apocalyptic wasteland, the ground might be irradiated. Fair enough. But now they are no longer the limiting factor, so why do they still exist/are mandatory for farming?
Everything TFPs do feels like you said, like a mood swing. Trying out stuff is nice, but they never think things through. What it affects, how it interacts with the rest of the game. If I had one statement that they would be able to read it is:
"Think things through. Hell I'll even raise these points for free if you ask nicely." because basically every change is a cluster**** and gets patched up with bandaids.
Examples:
Gore blocks - great mechanic. But it took too much processing power and didn't look right, so lets just scrap the whole thing instead of fixing it.
Every other feature that was scrapped instead of fixed when an issue arose.
First LBD system - needed another system to limit it and when that wasn't enough was scrapped, instead of implemented correctly
First iterations of schematics (books) - with no way to get a forge, you were forced to either look for weeks, or use one in a poi, if you found one
wandering hordes - ♬ every Zombie goes: Cha Cha Cha! ♬ the first few iterations were laughable
waking up sleepers - I loved it, but they seemingly didn't think ppl would wake them up and lure them outside. How did you not see that?
RWG debacle of previous alphas - honestly I don't remember anymore. So many changes and even more bugs and weird placements
A17 - .
Traders and their inventory/buy/sellprices
Farming - first farm plots, then rebalancing of seeds, now farm plots are just an annoyance
that whole food poisoning mechanic - I liked it (although I was a strong critic of HOW it was implemented) scrapped completely instead of tweaked and making it more sensible.
And now the sleeper volumes - See my two whole threads about it.
Every other feature that was scrapped instead of fixed when an issue arose.
First LBD system - needed another system to limit it and when that wasn't enough was scrapped, instead of implemented correctly
First iterations of schematics (books) - with no way to get a forge, you were forced to either look for weeks, or use one in a poi, if you found one
wandering hordes - ♬ every Zombie goes: Cha Cha Cha! ♬ the first few iterations were laughable
waking up sleepers - I loved it, but they seemingly didn't think ppl would wake them up and lure them outside. How did you not see that?
RWG debacle of previous alphas - honestly I don't remember anymore. So many changes and even more bugs and weird placements
A17 - .
Traders and their inventory/buy/sellprices
Farming - first farm plots, then rebalancing of seeds, now farm plots are just an annoyance
that whole food poisoning mechanic - I liked it (although I was a strong critic of HOW it was implemented) scrapped completely instead of tweaked and making it more sensible.
And now the sleeper volumes - See my two whole threads about it.
I just want them to think about it before they implement something, instead of applying a bandaid afterward.
It is like they see a problem and jump on the solution, without questioning it first or doing some more research.
OBVIOUSLY they do... but that is what it feels like. Issues that are pretty obvious, or should be, to those that know what is coming...
Well... my vacation is over tomorrow, so this might be my last rant for quite some time
Hope you enjoyed it
This has been discussed years ago when they implemented these changes. You just never agreed to it but then this is not your game and these topics were always split. But most people agree with TFPs. We could never do a poll since most players do not even read these posts. They are more confused than you or me about changes but they can still enjoy the game. Wait till bandits are in the game and you will really flip. I can predict they will be so not fair or balanced when first put into the game.
I just want to add this despite it offending some people. I take this example from a few years ago where I read a developer mentioning "The reviews are good so we're doing good". I think this is a mental trap for the devs. Let me explain.
I suspect that as long as the game doesn't change dramatically for the worse, reviewers won't bother giving bad reviews and it gives the devs a false sense of success and confirmation.
Why finish a product and go on with development when you are still in alpha stage? You can keep changing the same features indefinitely despite it hurting a seemingly small chunk of the player base.
I think a decent solution would be to have open polls announced in steam where people can vote for major redos.
Even better perhaps would be to make experimental versions and get feedback from the player base more often. That's what minecraft has been doing for ages and that's why it became so popular. The player base could always comment on a new feature before it was released. Then again minecraft does allow you to update your worlds in newer versions , which I think it would be significantly harder for the pimps to do.
I suspect that as long as the game doesn't change dramatically for the worse, reviewers won't bother giving bad reviews and it gives the devs a false sense of success and confirmation.
Why finish a product and go on with development when you are still in alpha stage? You can keep changing the same features indefinitely despite it hurting a seemingly small chunk of the player base.
I think a decent solution would be to have open polls announced in steam where people can vote for major redos.
Even better perhaps would be to make experimental versions and get feedback from the player base more often. That's what minecraft has been doing for ages and that's why it became so popular. The player base could always comment on a new feature before it was released. Then again minecraft does allow you to update your worlds in newer versions , which I think it would be significantly harder for the pimps to do.
JCrook1028
New member
Did you not actually read WHY they were put in? Because the new ground system will not support directly farming there... READ!
"It exists as a result of the new landscape mesh system not making the old style farm plots visible."
Ground is irradiated.
Quickly think, how should we fix this issue? Add radiation and rad-x to counter the effects or radiation? Make fertilizer from rotten food? Perhaps use boiled water on cotton to grow plants?
Recipe requires rotten meat.
What? Doesn't this come from the zombies?
Add.Rotten.Meat.To.The.Recipe.
Quickly think, how should we fix this issue? Add radiation and rad-x to counter the effects or radiation? Make fertilizer from rotten food? Perhaps use boiled water on cotton to grow plants?
Recipe requires rotten meat.
What? Doesn't this come from the zombies?
Add.Rotten.Meat.To.The.Recipe.
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Roland
Moderator
Im not certain what you mean by “quick fix” but none of those three things were quick. The Demolisher was a new boss enemy that was added to create new challenges. It wasn’t added to fix anything. Maybe you don’t like what it does or how it was implemented but it wasn’t something thrown in quick and without thought and planning. There was quite a bit of work involved comparable to any of the new zombie models added to the game.Marinxar said:
LBD was a process and not an event. LBD was already on the way out in Alpha 15 when they removed LBD crafting. In Alpha 16 they still had LBD skills but they also had skill points that could be earned to purchase perks. Finally in Alpha 17 the LBD skills were removed and everything was purely by purchase. The removal of LBD was a two-year long process. A17 was cooking for 1.5 years behind the scenes during which the current system was developed internally. There was nothing quick about it.
The farming plot went through about three changes internally that you guys never saw before it landed where it is. When the microsplat tech for terrain textures was adopted it necessitated a change to farming. No longer was the farming texture supported in addition to the overall biome texture. They tried a few different ways of doing it that were a compromise between what we have now and what we originally had but finally decided to do what we have now. It was not a quick slapped together thing. People tend to forget how long of a time between major updates there is and think, “In A16 it was this way and then suddenly in A17 it was completely different”
In that case “suddenly” equaled 18 months of development.
