PC Please Stabilize What You Want This Game To Be

If you're serious about expecting every person with complaints to mod the game to turn it into the game they want, then does that mean you don't consider any criticism valid since any problem can potentially be fixed by a determined enough modder or a version rollback? Because that's what I'm taking away from replies like these, and from similar statements made in multiple other threads. If no criticism is valid since 'modders can fix it' or 'it's just an alpha' then you're basically saying that giving feedback, requesting changes, and explaining why we like or don't like certain things is a waste of time. The devs won't (and indeed, shouldn't) listen to it, since modders can make everything better. Right?
Suppose I'll stop giving feedback, then. What's the point if I'm just going to get dogpiled for it and nobody cares about it anyway? Back to lurking for me.
Criticism is great... its the constant nagging about stuff that's the problem.. Example.. the glass jar.. How many forum posts have been created to complain about that. At some point it is no longer criticism but nagging. Which btw is easily fixed with adding a single property to food items in the xmls. Why havent the devs done it? Maybe they dont want it in. Maybe they see you can make endless jars with just a handful of sand and its considered balanced and they are happy with it. Yet we constantly see that forum post every update.

Im not saying voicing your opinion is bad... By all means, go for it. Just dont expect the devs to drop everything they are working on to fix a small thing that you deem a problem... THAT is why i say learn to mod.

 
If you're serious about expecting every person with complaints to mod the game to turn it into the game they want, then does that mean you don't consider any criticism valid since any problem can potentially be fixed by a determined enough modder or a version rollback? Because that's what I'm taking away from replies like these, and from similar statements made in multiple other threads. If no criticism is valid since 'modders can fix it' or 'it's just an alpha' then you're basically saying that giving feedback, requesting changes, and explaining why we like or don't like certain things is a waste of time. The devs won't (and indeed, shouldn't) listen to it, since modders can make everything better. Right?
Suppose I'll stop giving feedback, then. What's the point if I'm just going to get dogpiled for it and nobody cares about it anyway? Back to lurking for me.
If that is what you took from my comment then you have a reading comprehension problem. I said nothing remotely close to that. Please reread my comment in the context it was given.

 
The Dev's seem unaware or oblivious to a lot of things the community requests, Its putting their own ideas above everyone else and its going to hurt them in the long run.
Uhh, yeah, that's how game development works, especially when you own your own company and aren't locked into any contracts from giant publishers.

You get an idea for a game, it becomes a vision, and you set out to create that game. Outsiders will have a lot of ideas, but unless they go hand-in-hand with your vision, you ignore them. The idea is to create the game you set out to make, and see how many people like/buy it. You don't start a game, then throw your idea under the bus and just start implementing community ideas that go against the idea/point of the game you wanted to make, all in the name of satisfying an ever-growing number of people with different ideas of what is fun.

tl;dr Compromising the vision you have for your game is a terrible idea. As more and more people flock to your game, there will be more and more "ideas" from the community, and if you listen to / implement many of them, you'll ruin your game and alienate your core audience. Very few ideas from the community are ever worth implementing.

 
Take it from the Consumer's perspective before you begin digging yourself a hole you got no way of leaving. People have put money, time and other priceless elements into something they deeply care about. People Complain mainly out of care becuase they want to see the game flourish. (I know ive already said quite a lot of negative things about the devs but) The Dev's seem unaware or oblivious to a lot of things the community requests, Its putting their own ideas above everyone else and its going to hurt them in the long run.
I would much rather see the devs design the game how they want to than completely change it by giving in to every demand from the players. It's great for the devs to listen to the players, and I wholeheartedly believe that they do, but they should never make a change that they are against just because some players want something changed. I feel that players feedback should be more towards balance issues and not gaming changing aspects. Players should definitely discuss game changing ideas because maybe we will come up with an idea that never crossed the devs minds. Just don't expect because you ask for it that the devs will implement it. Also if the devs come out and say that an idea isn't going to happen, *cough* LBD *cough* it will be a good idea to stop bringing it up in every single post. As much money, time and other priceless elements the players have put in the game the devs have devoted so much more. As much as the players love this game it is the devs' baby.

 
Really I think the issue is people are not satisfied with how their concerns are recognized and the lack of ways to meaningfully express that they don't like the way the game is going.

The only ways you have, currently, to say "I don't like the way the game is going" is to say so on the forums (though the common response to concerns/complaints is often, basically, "tough ♥♥♥♥") or to not play the game.

The problem with both those options is they, 99% of the time, have no impact.

Early Access games have basically become game pitches to public investors. The problem is people put their money into the game without any way of pulling it out if the game becomes something they didn't sign up for.

Really, early access games should not be b2p but rather have a very cheap sub ($1-$5 per year or $0.25-$0.50 per month). That way people can say "I'm not going to pay for this" way the game takes a direction they don't like and they also won't feel like they have been given a bait and switch tactic.

 
Really I think the issue is people are not satisfied with how their concerns are recognized and the lack of ways to meaningfully express that they don't like the way the game is going.
The only ways you have, currently, to say "I don't like the way the game is going" is to say so on the forums (though the common response to concerns/complaints is often, basically, "tough ♥♥♥♥") or to not play the game.

The problem with both those options is they, 99% of the time, have no impact.

Early Access games have basically become game pitches to public investors. The problem is people put their money into the game without any way of pulling it out if the game becomes something they didn't sign up for.

Really, early access games should not be b2p but rather have a very cheap sub ($1-$5 per year or $0.25-$0.50 per month). That way people can say "I'm not going to pay for this" way the game takes a direction they don't like and they also won't feel like they have been given a bait and switch tactic.
What game have you played where the devs responded to every concern the players had? If the devs did that then there wouldn't be any time to actually develop the game. A lot of the concerns people post are just complaining that the game isn't exactly how they want it to be or are just repeating things that the devs have already said won't ever be added or changed.

You buy in to Early Access with the knowledge that the game is still in development and that it will be changing. I paid around $10 for the game back in the day and have almost 1100 hours played. I have gotten far more worth out of this game than any other game that I've played. If you aren't willing to play a game that is in Early Access because it might change and might not end up where you want it to then you should wait until it is finished with development and released.

 
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Really, early access games should not be b2p but rather have a very cheap sub ($1-$5 per year or $0.25-$0.50 per month). That way people can say "I'm not going to pay for this" way the game takes a direction they don't like and they also won't feel like they have been given a bait and switch tactic.
I agree that TFP's communication strategy leaves a lot to be desired compared to other early access developers, but a subscription model for an unfinished product seems like a bad idea. Gamers are fickle as hell, and if you have to account for possible mass cancellations because an update rubbed people the wrong way or because the early adopters burned out and went on to greener pastures, you can't really make financial projections and invest in personnel. It's much better to have the income upfront, so you can allocate funds based on what you actually have.

Plus it's not like any of us here "invested" more then a couple of tenners on this, and definitely not with the goal to make more money, which is what actual investors do. As far as I'm concerned, I got my money's worth, even if I think the game still is a janky mess in many ways.

 
Yelp wrong section this is console section.
But I will say welcome to an unfinish game. This is what alpha is. Some stuff comes as some stuff goes. Some stuff are place holder things while they work on other things. Some stuff might be in now because the other part that tries into it isn't finish yet. I mean it is like 100 different things and possibilities of why this and why that. So to sum it up welcome to alpha ;)
Looks like 7DTD is your first and only alpha game. It's more the rule than an exception that the game does not do 180s or 360s like this one.

EDIT

Usually there's a roadmap and you already can imagine what it's going to be when it's done. Alpha doesn't mean that you buy an apple seed to see it become a banana.

"Welcome to an unfinished game"...jesus.

 
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Looks like 7DTD is your first and only alpha game. It's more the rule than an exception that the game does not do 180s or 360s like this one.
EDIT

Usually there's a roadmap and you already can imagine what it's going to be when it's done. Alpha doesn't mean that you buy an apple seed to see it become a banana.

"Welcome to an unfinished game"...jesus.

Oh yes, you know me so well. Bet this is the only game I play as well huh? But hey at least I got a good chuckle out of it I will give ya that. ;)

Sorry but not sorry you don't agree with what I say. You have a right you have a opinion but what I said is very true. If it bothers you I highly recommend not playing alpha games. Because things can change at any given time. Doesn't mean that the roadmap changes could be lots of different things that happen that it comes to being able to get closer to the version that they see and or wanted it to be. Could go all day with why this and why that but it is pointless. But still stick to what I said that seems to have bothered you for some reason because changes even if it isn't what you like in your opinion does and will happen it is part of the experience so again welcome to alpha ;)

Edit: oh my bad I said welcome to an unfinished game lol *shrugs*

 
Looks like 7DTD is your first and only alpha game. It's more the rule than an exception that the game does not do 180s or 360s like this one.
EDIT

Usually there's a roadmap and you already can imagine what it's going to be when it's done. Alpha doesn't mean that you buy an apple seed to see it become a banana.

"Welcome to an unfinished game"...jesus.

Yeah well, most EA games enter EA already in beta. The more fleshed out a game is when entering EA the bigger the chance to find its audience. It is a risk starting early with EA.

But lets do a test: I show you the "roadmap":

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/7daystodie/7-days-to-die-zombie-survival-game
... and you tell me where in 7D2D the apple seed became a banana.

( In a quick check the feature you could actually call an apple seems to be the 5x5 crafting grid where they actually provided too much detail :cocksure: )

 
Really I think the issue is people are not satisfied with how their concerns are recognized and the lack of ways to meaningfully express that they don't like the way the game is going.
The only ways you have, currently, to say "I don't like the way the game is going" is to say so on the forums (though the common response to concerns/complaints is often, basically, "tough ♥♥♥♥") or to not play the game.
I really have to disagree with this assessment. I see people express themselves meaningfully all the time. Especially in the current A18 feedback thread people successfully get their ideas and dislikes in front of Madmole's eyes and he comments on them. Sometimes he agrees and makes a note to change something, sometimes he disagrees and usually gives a reason why (blunt though it may be), and sometimes he reveals that the suggestion is already in the works.

People also express themselves very effectively and meaningfully in the current bug thread which is checked daily by both devs and QA members.

Ranting and venting here in general discussions will rarely get a dev's attention-- usually only when I provide them with a link to a thread that has actual constructive feedback. Even then the devs rarely join in to a debate or a discussion but will lurk and read. General discussions is for discussing issues with fellow gamers. What I see most of the time is that someone comes to a public open forum to post their opinion and then cannot face opposing opinions or viewpoints even when those counterpoints are given without emotion or sarcasm. The fact is that what a lot of people wish is that they could post their opinion and then close the thread so nobody could comment. But that is not how it works. Post in your personal journal or start your own blog and turn off comments if you don't want push back. When you post here people are going to answer back and you are going to learn that many many people sometimes including the devs is #notyou and your preferences and opinions really don't have a lot of impact on them.

The problem with both those options is they, 99% of the time, have no impact.
Sorry but you just aren't posting in the right place then or you are posting in a way that turns off the people you want to convince. I facepalm all the time as I read posts that are so abrasive that I just know that nothing is going to come of it. For some people the desire to impact the game is not nearly as strong as the desire to get a dig in on the devs.

Early Access games have basically become game pitches to public investors. The problem is people put their money into the game without any way of pulling it out if the game becomes something they didn't sign up for.
No. None of us are investors. You are misusing the word. If you think of yourself as an investor rather than an early adopter then you are just setting yourself up for huge disappointments. Early adopters always get the shaft when it comes to pricing, bugs, versions, and deals. But all of that is payment for getting it early and first so you can tell all the late comers that you had it before it was popular.

Really, early access games should not be b2p but rather have a very cheap sub ($1-$5 per year or $0.25-$0.50 per month). That way people can say "I'm not going to pay for this" way the game takes a direction they don't like and they also won't feel like they have been given a bait and switch tactic.
Bait and switch connotes intent to con and that is not what is happening here. The game is developing and the developers have made previous versions available to play so you can always go back to the version you paid for. They have also made the game extremely moddable and given their blessing for people to go crazy and make changes. This model is the antitheses of "bait and switch".

Subscriptions will never happen. There is plenty of "buyer beware" verbage on Steam in regards to Early Access and plenty of first hand experiences you can read about to understand the risks. There is nothing wrong with the current model. Some people are suited for it and some people are not. If people look back over the years and only feel regret for having purchased this game for at most $35 dollars then I submit that they are unsuited for Early Access. If people look back over the years and feel nostalgia for past versions but mostly an appreciation for the journey and an interest in how the game is changing then they are well suited for Early Access. If all someone wants is a fun game to play they should wait until it is done before purchasing it.

 
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I'll take some of that action.

First, Mass Effect (the first one). Cost 2.7 to make, was released as a finished product, fully voice-acted and with a complete multi-branching story. This? 500K, and we don't have full voice acting or full development. Still being sold, even though not finished. Maybe a nit, but it sounds an awful lot like the "apple to banana" thing has some real validity behind it.

Second, how about the combination of the "live off the land" item from your link coupled to the "mining and crafting" bit from your link? At what point does that become "scavenge for baseball bat parts?" Definitely an "apple to banana" thing.

Third, XP and Skill Trees - as of A18, it's not a tree so much as a meandering cluster of arbitrary relationships. You can't become "the ultimate" anything unless you spend points in areas that don't really apply to what you're going for in order to get what you DO want.

So yeah. I can see the "apple to banana" thing pretty clearly.

 
Yeah well, most EA games enter EA already in beta. The more fleshed out a game is when entering EA the bigger the chance to find its audience. It is a risk starting early with EA.
QFT.

 
I really have to disagree with this assessment. I see people express themselves meaningfully all the time. Especially in the current A18 feedback thread people successfully get their ideas and dislikes in front of Madmole's eyes and he comments on them. Sometimes he agrees and makes a note to change something, sometimes he disagrees and usually gives a reason why (blunt though it may be), and sometimes he reveals that the suggestion is already in the works.
Forgive the newbie question but is that "A18 feedback thread" one of the ones in the Sticky topic in General Discussion, or is it somewhere else?

 
I'll take some of that action.
First, Mass Effect (the first one). Cost 2.7 to make, was released as a finished product, fully voice-acted and with a complete multi-branching story. This? 500K, and we don't have full voice acting or full development. Still being sold, even though not finished. Maybe a nit, but it sounds an awful lot like the "apple to banana" thing has some real validity behind it.
We are talking about an apple seed becoming a banana and not comparing apples and oranges although I will pass along your compliment to the devs that you think of them in the same realm as BioWare and their publishing partner Electronic Arts.

Second, how about the combination of the "live off the land" item from your link coupled to the "mining and crafting" bit from your link? At what point does that become "scavenge for baseball bat parts?" Definitely an "apple to banana" thing.
It would have to go a lot farther seeing as you can craft T1 and T2 clubs without parts all the way up to Quality 5 and the only things you need findable parts for are the T3 baseball bats. The game is absolutely playable with everything you can fully craft through mining. Now if they require random scavenging to do ALL crafting then that apples seed becomes a banana, sure. But you folks who are upset about baseball bats and purple quality being scavenge dependent like to gloss over the 100s of other items in the game that are still craftable.

Third, XP and Skill Trees - as of A18, it's not a tree so much as a meandering cluster of arbitrary relationships. You can't become "the ultimate" anything unless you spend points in areas that don't really apply to what you're going for in order to get what you DO want.
So yeah. I can see the "apple to banana" thing pretty clearly.
I see it as a tree. Sorry that you don't. Just because they allow you the freedom to reach into other trees doesn't mean they aren't trees. Everyone will have their own opinion and you are entitled to yours but I see trees.

Apple Trees.

 
I'd just like to pop in to say "If you don't like the product you bought you should fix it yourself" is an argument you'd accept from literally no other kind of company. I'll also point out that the 'two minutes' argument is only true if you're one, changing something very basic, two, already have all the tools, software, and knowledge to do it, and three, are willing to do it every single time the game updates and resets your changes. So it's certainly not something everyone's going to be willing or able to do.
Except I didn't buy a finished product, I bought Early Access, access to proof-of-manufacturability samples from the design team. That's not something you can get from many kinds of companies except the one-shot access you get by going to see a band or comic working out new material at a club or something. You don't get Early Access movies. Have you seen any discussions of what goes on in "making of" movies? The dailies and the early cuts don't look much if anything like the finished product. You don't get public Early Access _anything_ built with protons. They're too ♥♥♥♥ing hard to wrangle.

, you can still get it if you don't like the reworked production release. Imagine paying for a backstage pass and demanding performance changes. Few analogies, and none of these, are any better than slippery
 
What game have you played where the devs responded to every concern the players had? If the devs did that then there wouldn't be any time to actually develop the game. A lot of the concerns people post are just complaining that the game isn't exactly how they want it to be or are just repeating things that the devs have already said won't ever be added or changed.
You buy in to Early Access with the knowledge that the game is still in development and that it will be changing. I paid around $10 for the game back in the day and have almost 1100 hours played. I have gotten far more worth out of this game than any other game that I've played. If you aren't willing to play a game that is in Early Access because it might change and might not end up where you want it to then you should wait until it is finished with development and released.
I have never had a game where there was a development team to every player post/opinion, but I have played plenty of games where there was regular updates on the development, what changes are anticipated, and why the anticipated changes are being made.

Most people buy into early access with the impression that they are buying an unfinished game and that the game will continue to progress along the proposed path.

Where people become upset is when the changes start to go off the proposed path and the game they were pitched initially becomes something else.

If I entered EA with a game proposed as an RPG survival game and came out as a looter shooter, should players not be upset because my vision for the game had changed in the process and they should have known that could happen since it was EA?

 
If I entered EA with a game proposed as an RPG survival game and came out as a looter shooter, should players not be upset because my vision for the game had changed in the process and they should have known that could happen since it was EA?
Sure.....but what game are we talking about?

7 Days to Die is most definitely still firmly on the side of crafting survival game. Everything you need to survive is craftable and obtainable through non-random means (AKA mining/harvesting). Every Tier 1 and Tier 2 weapon and tool can be crafted without need for looting. All building blocks and basic recipes for dozens of things like clothing, vehicles, traps, first aid, food, etc is all craftable from materials you wholly can harvest or mine without chance messing you up and the recipes for these things if not unlocked from the beginning can be unlocked by spending skillpoints so again not determined by looting chance.

So what is dependent upon looting?

Tier 3 Weapons and Tools that have parts that can only be found and not crafted.

Tier 6 Quality Gear that cannot be crafted and can only be found.

There are a few special items that can only be crafted if you find their book

When you line it up you can see that the lion's share of the game is still crafting survival. Yes, I know you want EVERYTHING to be craftable without luck getting in the way but calling this game a "looter shooter" and claiming the devs have pulled a fast one on the customers by pretending they wanted an RPG is just an over-reaction to the changes they've made. AND....they are aware of the fact that you often find stuff before having the opportunity or need to craft it and they have plans to fix it.

But:

T1 - T2 Craftable..................................T3 Loot dependent Craftable

Q1 - Q5 Craftable.................................Q6 Loot only

100's of other items and........................Some special items unlocked by books only

blocks in the game craftable

This is not the picture of abandoning crafting survival for looter shooter. Sorry.

 
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Apologies for being long-winded and pedantic here, but I get that way sometimes. You have been warned.

Right, so, I know I said I wasn't gonna post again, but we all know how that goes. I've had some time to calm down, and I'm going to try something different. I'm going to elaborate a bit on the reason why the specific idea of 'It's an alpha, you should expect it to change' annoys me. This has nothing to do specifically with 7 Days to Die, but is more a general trend I've noticed over the past 9-10 years.

When it comes to video games, the terms 'Alpha,' 'Beta,' and 'Early Access' have become basically meaningless. The only thing that determines whether a game is in alpha, beta, early-access, or launch is what the developer says. I've seen clearly-finished games stay in 'beta' for years because the developer realized the 'beta' tag was a great way to deflect criticism despite the game having launched for all practical intents and purposes. I've seen times where a 'beta' was obviously completely finished and they were just letting people play it a few days early (which I would call early access). I've seen games progress from alpha to beta to launch with no real significant difference between all three versions; heck, most of the mods even still worked. And I've seen the opposite, I've seen launched games that are clearly still in beta, or even launched games that are perfectly fine but get completely overhauled every few months as the developers can't seem to make up their minds what they want the game to be.

With all that firmly in mind, I've had to come up with my own definitions for what is an alpha, a beta, an early-access title, and a launched game, because otherwise the inconsistency with which the industry as a whole applies the terms makes them meaningless. Would I call 7D2D an alpha? No, it's too finished to be an alpha. Alpha builds aren't typically playable, or if they are, tend to be glitchy as heck. Is it early access? Not in its current state, but I'd argue that both A16.3 and A17.4 could have launched as-is and been respectable titles in their own right (though I didn't personally care for A17.4) and would have been early-access. Instead, I'd say the game is in a beta state. Not just a beta though, but a perpetual beta. It's the 'perpetual' part that drives a lot of my frustration here. From my standpoint as an average customer, having played through Alphas 15, 16, 17, and now 18, it feels like, to go back to the title of the post, the developers don't know what they want the game to be. Over the course of four alpha builds the game's whole tone, pace, and feel have changed to the point it's moved from one side of the open-world sandbox genre to the other.

I'm not upset at the developers for making the game they want to make. I'm not upset at having spent money on the game, because it's more than paid for itself. What I'm upset at are the dismissive replies I get from people who consider any argument I make invalid because 'it's just an alpha, you should expect it to change.' Because while I do expect it to change, I also expect those changes to be iterative. I expect it to move along a steady, well-defined path to launch, refining and improving its design through subsequent builds and alphas rather than change its identity every year. But I don't feel that it's not doing that. Instead it really seems, like several other games I've played and am equally frustrated with (some in beta, some launched), that there is no roadmap, there is no iteration, there is no plan. That may very well be because I don't have access to that information, or I don't know where to find it, or I never knew what the plan was from the beginning. But that's also why the 'it's in alpha' logic annoys me so much. Because the way the game is being developed right now, from my perspective, makes that look like an excuse more than a rational argument.

Hope that's cleared some stuff up.

 
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