Please buff spears

I play on vanilla difficulty, I neglected to mention, when you have the +10% damage for quick succession attacks, you rack up to +30%. That gets really powerful. I use spear almost exclusively unless cornered and several deep, then I will pull out gunpowder.

I could be using the word in a way you disagree with, but I draw them out in a line out in the open and back up and shoot in close. I call that Kiting. you can totally hit 3 at once, you have to shoot in right as the nearest zombies attack anything is ending, and you go up near them, and power attack/headshot, they always die, if you have another lined up, and headshot they die as well. If they don't die, they always fall. Modded out high tier steel spears have been my fav since they introduced them. Then you could throw kill. They were awesome, but you lost a ton of them. Maybe A19? It's been my go to since. Spears have insane range. It's WAY more than you realize until you get used to it.
I think it's important to acknowledge your bias. 

Most people that come out in defense of the spear seem to fall into one of two categories... 

Either it's their main weapon, and they use it exclusively.
Or they like the idea of using a spear, because it's super cool, and they have good memories with it, but they end up using something else in their more recent playthroughs, and haven't touched it in a while. 

My proposed balance changes aren't aiming to attack anyone that uses spears. I'm not trying to say spears are useless or trash, they're not. 

I'm also not saying that they don't have a high enough damage number or attack speed (their stats are fine).

What I am saying is that, fundamentally spears are lacking, mechanically, compared to other weapon categories. 

Because spears have lower knockdown, they should lean more heavily into slowing effects, and get a decent bleed effect (like the knife gets). 
The bleed would help in early-mid game, and the slow would help against animals in mid-late game (it already works against humanoids. 

Imagine being able to slow down a dog or boar with your spear. I assume your experience has either been "headshot it" (with spear) or "shoot it". 
 

I could be using the word in a way you disagree with, but I draw them out in a line out in the open and back up and shoot in close. I call that Kiting. 
For the record, I would probably call that "hit-and-run". Kiting is named after how you interact with a kite (the thing in the sky with a string). With kiting, you want to maintain your safe distance from "your target", so in the spear's case if you were truly kiting, you wouldn't make use of its penetrate, you'd just keep head poking with the power attack. 

you go up near them, and power attack/headshot, they always die, if you have another lined up, and headshot they die as well. If they don't die, they always fall.
It doesn't exactly work that way on higher difficulties against radiated zombies. You need to stab heads multiple times for them to stop chasing you (and zombies get the "rage" speed bonus, too, remember). 

Then you could throw kill. They were awesome, but you lost a ton of them. Maybe A19? It's been my go to since. Spears have insane range. It's WAY more than you realize until you get used to it.
I actually made a post on these forums, years ago, suggesting that spears be divided into two categories: Throwing spears, and non-throwing spears. 
Alas, they instead just removed the ability to throw, and gave them a power attack. 
I still think spears should come in two varieties, personally. 

 
No one is telling you how YOU have to play it but most rections are considering the standard settings as reference. The fact you choose higher difficulty is kudos to you but not relevant for the standard settings. This does not make anything more or less relevant since it is all based on opinions. It for sure does not mean that anyone who admits to agree with someone with a different opinion.
For sure there is the stone cold numbercrunching wich is fine when bots play the game but gues what? It's people that play this game, all with their own preferences and maybe even some bias here and there.

Initialy I wanted to point out why in certain cases I prefere a spear over sledgehammer or club but given the way how bad you take different oppinions I'm giving up on this discussion.

A final note:
- Dissagreeing is NOT trolling
- Getting personal about it and waving Troll- and bias flags again and again... Pretty close to it.

Have a nice day.

Edit: Was typing all this before your latest reaction, your idea about throwing and poking being different makes sense. Not sure I would like it in different spears or as secundary attack but you have a good point there.

 
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most rections are considering the standard settings as reference. The fact you choose higher difficulty is kudos to you but not relevant for the standard settings. This does not make anything more or less relevant since it is all based on opinions.
Difficulty settings only change how much damage zombies give/take to/from players. That is all they do. So weapon balance is relevant to all difficulty settings. 

For sure there is the stone cold numbercrunching wich is fine when bots play the game but gues what? It's people that play this game, all with their own preferences and maybe even some bias here and there.
I don't think anyone has even mentioned numbers in this whole thread? Except for briefly explaining how irrelevant the spear's bleed effect is to gameplay. (Seriously it is useless in its current form, do not use Serrated Head on any weapon for the bleed, unless you have no other mods). 

Initialy I wanted to point out why in certain cases I prefere a spear over sledgehammer or club but given the way how bad you take different oppinions I'm giving up on this discussion.
You're free to not post. Totally your choice. 

A final note:
- Dissagreeing is NOT trolling
- Getting personal about it and waving Troll- and bias flags again and again... Pretty close to it.
So, if someone "disagrees" with me, they're not trolling... But if I "disagree" with someone I'm pretty close to trolling? Almost sounds like you're just arbitrarily deciding what to classify something as, purely based on your subjective opinion. 

Is it trolling to claim you were going to post something relevant to the topic, but then decided not to? Yes. 

Is it trolling to imply that I am a "bot" for making a post on weapon balance? Yes. 

Is it trolling to imply that I am upset about people disagreeing with me, when that's clearly not the issue? Yes. 

Edit: Was typing all this before your latest reaction, your idea about throwing and poking being different makes sense. Not sure I would like it in different spears or as secundary attack but you have a good point there.
I dig through my post history, and here is the original post: 



And actually, it's extremely relevant to this discussion, because it's a ~3.5 year old post about basically the same topic. 

 
I'm not super familiar with how to properly quote on these forums, but I will attempt to quote parts of my old post from 2021. My old ideas actually were pretty fun. 

When it comes to spears, I think they deserve more. From my testing, and from what I can tell, the spear has a "throw" power attack (which requires accuracy, and requires you to collect your weapon after every throw, and they have a light attack that basically has more reach than the other weapons. The perk says that "range" is increased, but I think it means the thrown range. The spear just doesn't seem to have anything significant going for it. The only real use I can find for them is being able to stand further back while in a bunker style melee base for horde night. 
(I think this post was during A19)
Since then the spear was changed. They removed the throw. I'm not sure what else, and I don't want to install A19 to check the XMLs. 

What I'm proposing is that these "new spears" give players a very solid alternative in using long-reach high mobility melee spears for use in open fields, where we can backpedal very comfortably. You *could* put the knife's bleed/slow ability on these "new spears", but I think it would be more fun to get a movespeed boost (especially when backpedaling) while using the "new spears", so you can very effectively kite hordes and keep a safe distance. 
That sounds like a fun option. 

Alternatively, you could just add more melee reach to the spears, and add "+% movespeed while holding a spear when a zombie is within X distance from you" to the last spear perk/skill/talent. (This means spears don't become this "free movement speed" tool, but rather a good kiting/running away weapon.)

This could also help to solve those moments when you're out in the middle of nowhere, and a zombie dog horde rolls up on you. You switch to your spear, and run. 
That also sounds fun. Oh, and zombie dog hordes basically don't exist anymore. (They probably appear very rarely now, but it used to be extremely common for a group of 7 zombie dogs to jump you in the forest. I remember getting mauled by 5+ zombie dogs on day 1 in the forest while building a house)

So, even back in 2021 I acknowledged that spears are lacking in knockdown power, and they should lean more heavily into kiting. That hasn't changed, it seems. 

So, an alternative / extra buff for spears:

3) Give spears a movement speed buff while zombies are close by (or during combat). I'm talking about within 5 meters from the player (spear heavy attack currently has a range of "3.6". I'm not sure if that's meters or yards or what). 

This would prevent the spear from being a general "run fast always" tool, because it would only work when zombies are quite close to you. It also would be a buff that focuses on mobility, not camping behind a door / barrier. 

And again, none of my 3 proposed changes affect how easily you can 1-shot zombies. They only matter against zombies that you can't 1-shot. And especially against animals... Because spears historically were (along with bows) extremely useful against humans and animals alike. 

 
Thinking about how the spear used to be, compared to how it currently is, has brought up another sub-topic that I'd like to mention:
Light attack vs power attack. 

I'm not sure what the general playerbase thinks about this, but in my opinion, the light attack just isn't useful for anything, ever. I never use the spear's light attack. Here's why:

- The power attack does more damage
- The power attack has more reach
- By the numbers, the power attack has a better damage-to-stamina ratio

- Both have the same attack speed
- Light attack literally offers nothing, except a lower stamina cost, so maybe use it against a rabbit or a chicken or a curtain?

So when TFP removed the spear's throw and made the power attack the only relevant attack, it really just removed the throw. There's still only one true melee attack on the spear. 

 
I think it's important to acknowledge your bias. 

Most people that come out in defense of the spear seem to fall into one of two categories... . 
You make an awful lot of assumptions about my mindset and take a excruciating detailed to pick apart why what I am doing isn't working. Of course you can't one shot irradiated or even feral, but those are rare compared to the typical. I don't see your point. I use it because I almost never get hit because I keep a safe distance unless I want to make a perfect strike in a piercing line. Otherwise I am kiting. Let's be real. You just don't like my justification for it being almost OP. Every other melee weapon you are getting whacked by the surprise spin move. I have gone till day 7 with getting hit once many times all because of a spears reach. Once you have parkour, you can hop 2 high blocks and exploit your reach advantage further. 3 high and sneak and you can get head shots on them below you.

 
You make an awful lot of assumptions about my mindset and take a excruciating detailed to pick apart why what I am doing isn't working. Of course you can't one shot irradiated or even feral, but those are rare compared to the typical. I don't see your point. I use it because I almost never get hit because I keep a safe distance unless I want to make a perfect strike in a piercing line. Otherwise I am kiting. Let's be real. You just don't like my justification for it being almost OP. Every other melee weapon you are getting whacked by the surprise spin move. I have gone till day 7 with getting hit once many times all because of a spears reach. Once you have parkour, you can hop 2 high blocks and exploit your reach advantage further. 3 high and sneak and you can get head shots on them below you.
???

I'm so confused. Let my try to break this down, and maybe I'll grasp what you're trying to tell me. 

You make an awful lot of assumptions about my mindset and take a excruciating detailed to pick apart why what I am doing isn't working.
I have no idea what you mean by this sentence. I can't decipher it. 

Of course you can't one shot irradiated or even feral,
You can though, even with stone weapons, if you get a face decap. 

but those are rare compared to the typical.
Maybe in the early game? I usually find myself facing majority ferals for most of my gameplay, with radiated becoming more and more common as I progress. So no, I wouldn't in any way call ferals or radiated zombies rare. 

For example, on my recent insane spear-only single-player (2 hr day) playthrough, on night 4 I took out a POI that had 2 radiated zombies, and roughly half of them were ferals, half basics. By the time I was done, I'd used up ~90% of my level 5 iron spear's durability, and had 57 more kills than before I started. Day 6 the POI's had roughly 8 radiated zombies each. Wouldn't call that rare, exactly. 

I don't see your point. I use it because I almost never get hit because I keep a safe distance unless I want to make a perfect strike in a piercing line. Otherwise I am kiting. Let's be real. You just don't like my justification for it being almost OP.
??? Sorry, I'm not following. What did I say that you're replying to? The part about acknowledging your bias? 

Every other melee weapon you are getting whacked by the surprise spin move. I have gone till day 7 with getting hit once many times all because of a spears reach.
I'll admit, the feral spider zombies are really rough to fight using "stone" tier melee weapons. 

But apart from that? It's a case of "git gud". 

I have made it a point to start insane melee-only playthroughs, and get into a fight with zombies during night 1, and each of the weapons can kill a feral or two out on the street without you getting hit once. 

Once you get comfortable with using your sprint, getting the timing right, and knowing when to move and in which direction, the Bone Knife is far and away the best day 1 melee weapon. Why? Because the more stamina you use, the sooner you'll start starving and dehydrating, and when that happens you'll have less stamina, and less, until you'll be ineffective in combat. 

Once you have parkour, you can hop 2 high blocks and exploit your reach advantage further. 3 high and sneak and you can get head shots on them below you.
Yeah, that is true. I don't generally play that way, but I will admit that spear is the best melee weapon for that particular strategy. 

What I used to do when I was trying to be super safe and careful, is I'd craft and place wooden hatches in doorways, so I could fairly safely melee zombies without them being able to reach me (and I could prevent getting jumped by feral zombies coming into the building behind me, as well). It works for clearing POIs, and it works in a pinch for the first few blood moons as well. 

If something went wrong and they broke a block, I could just retreat back to another doorway. Rinse and repeat until all of the zombies are dead. Works with all melee weapon types, but obviously bone knife is the best for it. 

I only use wooden hatches for horde nights now. I just fight the POI zombies using my melee weapons and whatever terrain already exists, or just beat them up on the street. 

You make an awful lot of assumptions about my mindset and take a excruciating detailed to pick apart why what I am doing isn't working.
I still don't know what you were trying to say with this line, but since you quoted me specifically about the bias thing, maybe I should try to re-explain it in different words? 

So, melee weapons exist in 7 Days To Die. I think we can all agree on that. What it seems we can't agree on is, whether or not the melee weapons should be roughly "as useful" as each other, or if some should just be better than others. 

Currently in 7 Days To Die (and this has been the case for years now, with no significant balance changes), each melee weapon has its own strengths and weaknesses. They each behave slightly differently, and therefore perform differently under different circumstances. 

The core issue I have with what you and Riamus have been saying, is that you're avoiding the topic of the post.

The topic is weapon balance. More specifically, how the spear compares to the other melee weapons. 

Yet neither of you have mentioned any of the other melee weapons, nor have you compared the spear to any other melee weapons. 

If the spear is OP, then which melee weapons is it better than, and in what way?

Jumping on top of a block and poking down is a unique strength of the spear, sure. 

But using a hatch is roughly as strong, and every weapon can do that. Hatch works better for indoors fighting, and making a nerd pole to poke down from sounds like an outdoors thing. But if you're already outside, and have a flat road to move around on, you should be able to fight most enemies anyway. 

The problem for me is, I use the melee weapons for their mechanical benefits. If the spear just has less to offer me, I'm just not going to enjoy using it. The only time I'd want to use spear is if I'm purposefully making the game more difficult for myself by using weak weapons. 

Here's a story:
 

I was playing solo on a public server today (Warrior difficulty), doing quests in the wasteland with my Stone Sledge. When I was opening up the main loot room, fighting my way through a couple of radiated zombies and a few ferals, I had to back up and kite them (because I wasn't building anything to block their path, I was just fighting them inside the rooms). It just so happened that a wandering horde had snuck up behind me, and as I was retreating up a ladder to reposition myself, I ran into some zombies blocking my path at the top of the ladder. I figured, well I'm screwed, I was sandwiched between two groups on a ladder with no escape. But I just power attacked the zombies above me and ragdolled them off the ladder. I managed to get up the ladder to safety, then killed them all and took my loot.

My weapon saved me when I was in a really tough spot. And I fought a couple bears with that same Stone Sledge and survived. 

If my main weapon was a spear in that situation, I would have died. If my main weapon was a spear against those bears, I would have died. 

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes craft a level 1 stone spear for extra reach in the early game (because I don't use bows anymore). Like the shovel, or the wrench, or the bone knife, or the stone axe, or wooden spikes, or wooden hatches, it's a tool for a specific use.

But when it comes to using a melee weapon to take on anything the game can throw at me? Spear just doesn't offer me that. Like I said, I'd rank Steel Spear #5, after Stun Baton, Steel Sledge, Steel Club, Steel Knuckles. 

When you see a bear or a wolf, you pull your gun out, because you know your spear can't handle that fight. 
When I see a bear or a wolf, I go and beat it up with my melee weapon, because I can. 

The reason I even decided it was time to make this post, was because I killed two zombies with 1 swing using a wooden club, and 3 zombies with 1 swing using a pipe baton. It got me thinking about how the spear's penetrate ability isn't that special, and how the spear got buffed compared to how it is in vanilla in one of the modpacks I play. I figured, if the spear can get buffed to be more in-line with the other melee weapons in a modpack, why not see if we can get it buffed in vanilla by going on the forums? 

 
???

I'm so confused. Let my try to break this down, and maybe I'll grasp what you're trying to tell me. 
you quoted me about the same thing 3x. You just made my point about "You make an awful lot of assumptions about my mindset and take a excruciating detailed to pick apart why what I am doing isn't working. "

You are saying how I am playing. You are comparing that to how you play. THAT is where the assumptions live.

Claiming you can one shot ferals with a headshot/decap doesn't make my point irrelevant about common zombies. You are using a uncommon instance to refute my COMMON instance. That doesn't work dude.

Do you read your words before you post them? You asked me what settings I use, I said vanilla, and then your claim of them NOT being rare is explained with this gem.

"So no, I wouldn't in any way call ferals or radiated zombies rare. 

For example, on my recent insane spear-only single-player (2 hr day) playthrough, on night 4 I took out a POI that had 2 radiated zombies, and roughly half of them were ferals, half basics. By the time I was done, I'd used up ~90% of my level 5 iron spear's durability, and had 57 more kills than before I started. Day 6 the POI's had roughly 8 radiated zombies each. Wouldn't call that rare, exactly. "

Ya that insane difficulty is uh.... WAY HARDER. lol Normal difficulty you never see that many feral/radiated zombies by day 6 

Your comparisons are apples to oranges. You can't do that my guy.  At the end of the day, you are painting yourself in a corner and asking TFP to get you out of a scenario you created for yourself.

 
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you quoted me about the same thing 3x. You just made my point about "You make an awful lot of assumptions about my mindset and take a excruciating detailed to pick apart why what I am doing isn't working. "

You are saying how I am playing. You are comparing that to how you play. THAT is where the assumptions live.

Claiming you can one shot ferals with a headshot/decap makes my point irrelevant. You are using a uncommon instance to refute my COMMON instance. That doesn't work dude.

Do you read your words before you post them? You asked me what settings I use, I said vanilla, and then your claim of them NOT being rare is explained with this gem.

"So no, I wouldn't in any way call ferals or radiated zombies rare. 

For example, on my recent insane spear-only single-player (2 hr day) playthrough, on night 4 I took out a POI that had 2 radiated zombies, and roughly half of them were ferals, half basics. By the time I was done, I'd used up ~90% of my level 5 iron spear's durability, and had 57 more kills than before I started. Day 6 the POI's had roughly 8 radiated zombies each. Wouldn't call that rare, exactly. "

Ya that insane difficulty is uh.... WAY HARDER. lol Normal difficulty you never see that many feral/radiated zombies by day 6 

Your comparisons are apples to oranges. You can't do that my guy.  At the end of the day, you are painting yourself in a corner and asking TFP to get you out of a scenario you created for yourself.
Just to note that from my understanding, the difficulty just changes health and damage of zombies, not gamestage.  So difficulty shouldn't affect how quickly you see higher tier zombies.

Now, they are on 2 hour days, so that means it's basically day 8 for anyone playing default settings.  I've seen ferals on the first night when I wasn't even in a POI.  But, generally speaking, you don't see too many ferals and certainly no radiated right away in your game because they are mostly tied to gamestage.  But if you increase your gamestage quickly, you can easily see a lot of them pretty quickly in a game.  I could easily see plenty of ferals and even radiated by the night of day 4 with 2 hour days, especially in POIs.  Add in the fact that POIs can specifically add higher tier zombies regardless of gamestage or POI tier if the POI designer chooses to do so.  If they were using any custom POI, that could also be related, though it doesn't have to be the reason.

Also note what they said... after one POI on the night of day 4, they had killed 57 zombies.  That would have to be at least around a tier 3-4 POI for that many zombies.  There may be a few lower tier ones with that many zombies, but most low tier POI don't have so many.  That means they are in a higher tier POI, which also bumps the difficulty, increasing the chances of seeing higher tier zombies sooner than otherwise.

In the end, the day isn't a full picture of where they are in the game.  You need to also know what biome, what POI, and what gamestage.  I can definitely see having a lot of ferals and even radiated like they are talking about.  As they said, they get more and more feral and radiated zombies as they progress, and they agreed that early game is different.  That is how it would work.

That doesn't change my previous comments about spears being good, of course.  But I see no reason to continue that discussion after the responses to my comments.  Just pointing out that their statements about lots of feral and radiated zombies isn't incorrect.

 
Just a note - TFP have stated that their intent is not to balance the game at harder difficulties.  Their intent is for the game to be balanced at the default difficulty setting.

 
Spears are really strong If you get the penetrant book. And the fact they slow Zombies down, cause bleed and have ranged make it my favorite weapon class

 
Just to note that from my understanding, the difficulty just changes health and damage of zombies, not gamestage.  So difficulty shouldn't affect how quickly you see higher tier zombies.

Also note what they said... after one POI on the night of day 4, they had killed 57 zombies.  That would have to be at least around a tier 3-4 POI for that many zombies.  There may be a few lower tier ones with that many zombies, but most low tier POI don't have so many.  That means they are in a higher tier POI, which also bumps the difficulty, increasing the chances of seeing higher tier zombies sooner than otherwise.
Well that will certainly chew through the durability of your weapons and you will take a lot more damage in the process more than likely. I think when you do 50% damage and they do 250% damage to you, any more than 2, you need distance or a long runway. Melee with that much danger is bananas. One thing I noticed about playing with a health bar, is it completely changes how you manage stamina. If you know a light attack will kill a zombie, you don't waste the stamina. The game seems a lot easier when you have that insight. I don't play with one because it feels like cheating, but all of those small things affect the game in a significant way. Why do I bring that up, I think when you are playing against zombies and know they take 4 hits to the head to kill on normal. Then on insane difficult you are now looking at 8. Now add 4 zombies. You lost count. You can't math out who the easiest one now is. That creates a significantly more difficult mental calculation of how much more it should take to kill them. In my mind that alone makes the combat more difficult. It's a strange comparison to use to say something should be buffed, when you are playing on a difficulty that game isn't balanced for going into a POI at night which is supposed to be a lot harder. That is an artificial difficulty you are imposing on yourself. To ask it be changed to become easier seems both counter intuitive because of your self imposed difficulty and also against the games intended balance.

I am level 11 right now in my currently play through and I haven't seen a single radiated zombie, and only a few ferals. I don't go out at night and spend those mining typically. I play with a mod that makes random horde spawn every 12-24hrs because the game is really slow with so little zombies. I find it way to easy given vanilla population. Now all of my other settings are normal. I level faster because of this obviously, and I am also playing with feral sense on. Screenshot of a horde that surprised me using with the mod I am referring to. I was using a level 1 flaming spear to take them out. This was day 3 I think. I changed to the ax because the flames ruin the screenshot. Encountering 20 "typicals" with a level 1 spear I didn't get hit once, because I was out in the open. This was even with debuffed stamina regen because I was hungry and thirsty at the time.

Spear is a much better weapon out in the open. There is no way I can take of a 1/4 of those in a POI and not get hit. If I trigger a group in a POI I will run to the biggest room and fight them there. If I am not playing with feral sense on, I can usually just snipe my way through with a bow, but that feels cheesy after a while.

image.png
This is at my base in the forest biome.
 

 
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Well that will certainly chew through the durability of your weapons and you will take a lot more damage in the process more than likely. I think when you do 50% damage and they do 250% damage to you, any more than 2, you need distance or a long runway. Melee with that much danger is bananas. One thing I noticed about playing with a health bar, is it completely changes how you manage stamina. If you know a light attack will kill a zombie, you don't waste the stamina. The game seems a lot easier when you have that insight. I don't play with one because it feels like cheating, but all of those small things affect the game in a significant way. Why do I bring that up, I think when you are playing against zombies and know they take 4 hits to the head to kill on normal. Then on insane difficult you are now looking at 8. Now add 4 zombies. You lost count. You can't math out who the easiest one now is. That creates a significantly more difficult mental calculation of how much more it should take to kill them. In my mind that alone makes the combat more difficult. It's a strange comparison to use to say something should be buffed, when you are playing on a difficulty that game isn't balanced for going into a POI at night which is supposed to be a lot harder. That is an artificial difficulty you are imposing on yourself. To ask it be changed to become easier seems both counter intuitive because of your self imposed difficulty and also against the games intended balance.

I am level 11 right now in my currently play through and I haven't seen a single radiated zombie, and only a few ferals. I don't go out at night and spend those mining typically. I play with a mod that makes random horde spawn every 12-24hrs because the game is really slow with so little zombies. I find it way to easy given vanilla population. Now all of my other settings are normal. I level faster because of this obviously, and I am also playing with feral sense on. Screenshot of a horde that surprised me using with the mod I am referring to. I was using a level 1 flaming spear to take them out. This was day 3 I think. I changed to the ax because the flames ruin the screenshot. Encountering 20 "typicals" with a level 1 spear I didn't get hit once, because I was out in the open. This was even with debuffed stamina regen because I was hungry and thirsty at the time.

Spear is a much better weapon out in the open. There is no way I can take of a 1/4 of those in a POI and not get hit. If I trigger a group in a POI I will run to the biggest room and fight them there. If I am not playing with feral sense on, I can usually just snipe my way through with a bow, but that feels cheesy after a while.


This is at my base in the forest biome.
Yeah, how you play the game has a big impact on many things.  I never count hours to see how quickly I'll kill someone.  I just hit it until it dies.  So, for me, it wouldn't matter how much health or the number of zombies because I'm not trying to keep track anyhow.  That said, I will end up noticing if a zombie took more hits to kill than normal just because it feels like more than normal, so I suppose there may be some subconscious "counting" going on.  But that's not really the same thing as those who intentionally count hits.

As far as fighting with a spear, I like it inside just as much.  It works great in halls and doors, especially when you can penetrate to multiple zombies.

 
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Just a note - TFP have stated that their intent is not to balance the game at harder difficulties.  Their intent is for the game to be balanced at the default difficulty setting.
I don't fully understand this, because what actually changes at higher difficulty compared to lower? 

Is it mostly about managing stamina, and zombie "rage" speed bonus? 
 

For example, if a zombie can be killed in 3 hits on standard difficulty, and you have enough stamina to dish out 3 hits in a row... If the difficulty is higher (zombies take 6 hits to kill now), suddenly you need to manage your stamina. Not only does it require you to regenerate stamina for those extra 3 attacks, but also you need to reposition yourself and likely sprint away to avoid harm. So you're spending stamina for mobility, as well as for dealing damage. 

If the implication is that "standard gameplay" doesn't require you to do this, then why do zombies have a "rage bonus" at all? 

The only real difference between the lowest difficulty setting and the highest, is the question of "do I have enough stamina, mobility, and time". On low difficulties, you almost never have to ask yourself that question, but on higher difficulties you do.

On lower difficulties, if you see a zombie bear / dire wolf / cougar, all you have to ask yourself is "do I have a ranged weapon? do I have ammo? do I want to get the loot that animal has?". 

On higher difficulties, in the same situation, you also have to ask "will that thing die before it reaches me if I start shooting it from here? can I kill it without needing to reload? am I able to outrun it, or tank hits from it, if it reaches me? does my gun have enough durability? do I have a backup weapon to switch to? will I be able to harvest it before too many more zombies show up?".

There is a gameplay difference between the difficulty settings, sure. Even though very little mechanically changes, it's that added element of "what can I do to avoid taking damage?". But how is the game being balanced for a particular difficulty setting?

Ok, so hypothetically we're playing on a low difficulty setting, with low gamestage, just taking it easy and just picking off stray zombies during the day. They're slow, we're probably one-shotting them, they're spread out in most cases, sometimes you'll find a juicy pack of them and be like "ooh, easy exp". Cool. 
So yes, obviously a gun, bow, or any projectile weapon is going to be able to "harvest the exp" from further away, so you don't have to move as far. 
After those weapons, when we get down to melee, yes, technically the spear can "harvest the exp" from 3.6 meters instead of 2-2.6 meters of the other melee weapons. 

But normal gameplay isn't that. 

In normal gameplay, you're going in POIs (houses and other buildings, generally), and sometimes you follow the path the POI directs you along, sometimes you mine or build to avoid an obstacle. In these POIs, a lot of them put the player into situations where you're getting ambushed in confined spaces. This is pretty clearly intentional, based on their design. They want you to get jumped in that little room, and if you know the POI you can feel smart by preparing specifically to avoid that potentially unfavorable situation. 

So if it's possible to "not get boxed in and trapped", and it's also possible that "yes you actually did get boxed in and trapped and the zombies are closing in on you with the intention of becoming very close friends", and the game is designed so you can learn the layout of each POI and be rewarded for having tricks and foreknowledge to overcome obstacles in there... 

Then when you do get boxed in, or when you choose to take the fight directly to the zombies (so they're the ones trapped in that room with you), then your choice of weapons, armour, skill build, and what you had for lunch, all suddenly matter. 

If a player is in a melee fight, having a weapon that has a big "glancing blow" area, and those "glancing blows" can stagger or knock-down or face decap, that is a pretty big advantage over a weapon with a smaller hit area, with lower stagger and knock-down chance. 

So what actually happens in a melee fight against a zombie, or a group of zombies? 

Well, you get within your comfortable range, within your preferred timing, and you launch an attack at the zombie. This either means before the zombie swings, or after it's started a swing (that you've hopefully avoided being hit by). 
Then the zombie reacts to being hit by you (provided you hit it). It will either die in one hit. Or it will become knocked-down or stunned. Or it will flinch. Or it will not react and will continue trying to come closer and hit you. 
In the case that it flinches towards you, or just generally keeps coming closer, and especially if it becomes more enraged, it might hit you. The tricky part about this is, you dealing damage to the zombie can actually help it to land a hit on you. 
But if you knock-down or stun the zombie, that generally will not assist it in hitting you. It'll break-even at worst. 

So, defensively, knocking-down or stunning a zombie is better than not being able to do that. 
But not all weapons have an equal chance of knocking-down or stunning zombies. So what do they do instead?

Sledge has good reach (2.6 on both attacks), with a wide arc swing for the power attack. It has a really good knock-down chance (listed at 75%), which can affect multiple enemies per swing, and its big damage assists it with one-shotting. Its downsides being, high stamina costs and slow speed. 

Club is basically a mini-sledge, with a different "feel". Shorter range, less damage-per-hit, faster attack speed. 

Pipe Baton is essentially a Club in a lot of ways. 
Stun Baton combines elements from a few weapons, essentially. AoE knock-downs (from Sledge), generalist stats (from Club), damage-over-time effect (from Knife), and just makes it quirky by visually letting you know when your next hit is guaranteed to apply effects. The 10% chance of insta-kill is uniquely effective in higher difficulty. 

Knuckles are like a mini-Club, with an even different "feel". Shorter range, faster attack speed, weird relationship to damage (they have their own Beer buff dedicated to them). Also weird is they are the only weapon to heal you. 

Knife is a tool/weapon hybrid. Can't beat a bone knife for harvesting crops as a farmer. 
Instead of being a "mini-" any of the other weapons, the knife has a mix of weird elements all on its own. Fastest attack speed light attack, paired with a half-speed power attack (no other weapon does that?). Huge sneak damage boost. Huge damage-to-stamina ratio on the bone knife (double as high as all of the others). Then there's the bleed, a core part of the knife. The bleed stacks up, and when the skill is leveled-up, this bleed can provide a slowing effect *to all targets*. 

The spear, in its own right, is a hybrid of weird things. It's got the highest melee range, but only on the power attack. It can penetrate multiple enemies if they line up (or put dents in the sand under your target). Then it can also ignore some of the target's armour. It does have a slow, but that slow only affects humanoids (so all animals ignore it). 

The axe (iron / steel) is the pseudo 7th melee weapon category, and basically offers nothing over the "real" 6 categories. 

Weapon choice generally comes down to 3 things: What fantasy the player wants to fulfil, what gameplay advantages the weapon offers, and sometimes just what weapon they looted first. Obviously we can't account for the third thing, so let's look at the first two, starting with "advantages the weapon offers".

So, what makes the most sense as a "new player" weapon? Club. It's a good all-rounder with no weaknesses. 
Okay, but what about when you're more experienced, and want something for a specific purpose/playstyle?
Bone Knife in the early game is excellent at conserving stamina. Really unmatched if you're trying to get early kills just so you can put food in your mouth. 
Knuckles uniquely and unapologetically put you "in the face" of the zombies. Higher chance of getting hit, but higher chance of not caring about it. 
Sledge is very defensive (and offensive) in all stages of the game, on all difficulties. Can't beat its per-hit damage or knock-down chance, and it has the 2nd-highest range. 
Stun Baton is unrivalled in all aspects of the game, but only once you're fully geared and built for it. Until then, it's just a mini-Sledge. 
Machete has an excellently gory dismember chance, so you can get up close and separate zombies. 
Spear has the longest range, so you can poke from further away. Easier time stabbing through door gaps, or down onto heads. 
 

Moving on to fantasy: It's just vibes, but what can take you out of the good vibes is bad audio/visual depiction, or bad game balance. Let's dive a little deeper into the fantasy before we get to the balance issues. 

Sledge: It is the #1 best for being a "defender", from start to finish. If you're playing with a friend who "sucks" at the game, and they don't know how to kite, when to run, or any of that, and they find themselves constantly getting swarmed when you turn your back... The sledgehammer is an excellent weapon category. The high knockdown chance means you can "peel" zombies off of your goofy ally better than any other weapons (except maybe the Stun Baton). 

Sledge (part two): It is the #1 highest damage-per-hit weapon, so if you want to have a "big strong hulk smash" vibe, the sledgehammer is also for you. It covers two fantasies. Head-bonking a feral into a sweet ragdoll with a single swing is quite obtainable with a steel sledge. 

Stun Baton: If you're the type to meticulously plan out your build and get a sweet payoff with calculated (but very intense) mid-combat power-spikes that let you face absolutely any challenge in front of you, the Stun Baton is unbeaten. It will crush absolutely anything in front of it better than any other melee weapon can (as long as you're willing to put up with its RNG aspect). You'll want to be tanky when the RNG isn't in your favor. 

Knuckles: Similar fantasy to the Stun Baton, but in some ways the opposite. Instead of planning out your build meticulously, and carefully considering each swing's electricity content, you instead just buy beer, grow hops, and punch things in the head. This is the berserker vibe weapon. Don't think just punch. 

Machete: I'd consider Stun Baton, Knuckles, and Machete to be a trio of sibling weapon fantasies. They all involve wading into hordes of zombies and just getting messy (or at least giving you the ability to). You could wade into hordes with the Sledge, but the attack speed is just too slow for that. The machete lets you be the butcher. It's kind of like a different berserker vibe. Instead of punching, you're chopping, dismembering. Maybe you just love being covered in blood?

Club: Realism? Pragmatism? I don't know if there is a particular fantasy to the clubs. Maybe if you're channeling the vibes of a particular piece of media? 

Spear: ???

So what's wrong here? The club, being the ultimate generalist weapon, can't really have an extreme vibe to it. It's not excellent or awful at anything. That's understandable, but where did the spear go wrong? 

Let's look at spears in media, history, games, and just "take a stab" at what the fantasy could be with spears. 

The spear, for a very long time in history, alongside the bow & arrow, was "the weapon". It's been proven to be extremely effective against all animals and humans alike. Just on a surface level, the spear is the single coolest weapon in 7 Days To Die. So what went wrong within the game? 

Well, there isn't one type of spear in real life, or in media. But in 7dtd, there's just one spear category. A "boar spear", a "dory spear", a "pike", an "assegai spear", and whatever else types of spear are fundamentally different. There are countless types of spear and spear-like polearms to draw inspiration from, but in the game there's just "spear" that comes in 3 tiers, but is functionally the same. 

If 7dtd added a "boar spear", it could be a really cool thing for your stabs to slightly push back zombies (or at least never causing them to stumble forward). The whole point of that genre of spear was to prevent animals from running up the shaft after being impaled. No such thing exists in 7dtd though. 

If 7dtd didn't remove the throw, having a thrown spear could be a cool thing, letting you choose between using it for melee, or throwing it into your target, (hopefully) temporarily disarming you in the process. Spear throwing is a fun aspect, and it's a shame they chose to remove that. 

If 7dtd had a dedicated longer spear (maybe not a pike, but just a generally long spear, up to 3 meters?), you could have that big reach, and focus on making use of it. (No, the current spear isn't "this" currently.)

If 7dtd had a specialized anti-armour spear, that specifically had bonuses to ignoring armour, that would also be cool. 

But it feels like what 7dtd has done, is just slap some spear-type features into one single spear category, and called it a day. There's no real cohesion or through-line about what fantasy the spear is trying to fulfil in this game. What, you're supposed to sit behind a barrier and skewer zombies during blood moon? That's the vibe? If that was how it's supposed to be used, then why does it have a slow on it? The slow doesn't help when you're behind a barrier. But if it's supposed to be used out in the open by using mobility and slows, then why doesn't it affect animals? And how is it a bladed weapon that doesn't apply bleed, while the knifes and machete apply bleeds? How does that make sense? 

The other weapons have visual and mechanical vibes to them. 

Why does the spear partially ignore armour? Is that a nod to realism? If it is, why doesn't the pickaxe have armour ignore?
Is it for gameplay reasons? What, so you can fight demolishers better while you're camping in your base? 

The spear should be **the** anti-animal melee weapon. Yet due to its mechanics it is uniquely unspecialized for animals. 
The sledge, club, stun baton, knuckles all knock-down and/or stun animals, which helps defensively. 
The knife can slow animals, and is good for cutting them up. 
Yet the spear has nothing. 

A spear is fundamentally a long stick with a sharp end. There are so many realistic ways you could buff it. 
Give it a mobility boost, because you can hold it in both hands and run around without the weight throwing you off-balance or needing to worry about the blade cutting you. Make attacks cost less stamina because it's a bladed weapon, so it should be a force multiplier; it should be easier to swing than a club while dealing more damage. Give it the bleed effect of knives, because it's a knife on a stick. Allow its slow to apply to animals, because why does the knife's slow apply to animals but not the spear's? 

The spear won't ever have the raw knock-down defensive power of the sledge / club / baton / knuckles. And it shouldn't. But it needs something to balance it with the other melee weapons. 

Heck, just split it into two weapons. 
One spear can be the anti-armour, penetrating spike. It can ignore armour, penetrate multiple enemies, and can be designed for camping on horde night. 
The other spear can be the bladed spear. It can apply bleeds, slow enemies, and give a mobility boost, designed for kiting in open spaces. 

At least that way both weapons would have distinct identities and fantasies. Instead of the jank spear we currently have. 

 
You are saying how I am playing. You are comparing that to how you play. THAT is where the assumptions live.
I believe you are the one who has been explaining how you play the game. I'm only taking your word for what you've said here. I'm sorry if I've misrepresented your gameplay style or misunderstood anything you've said. 

Do you read your words before you post them? You asked me what settings I use, I said vanilla, and then your claim of them NOT being rare is explained with this gem.
I just wanted accuracy and clarity, and I disagreed with your claim. If I'm 8 hours into a new playthrough, and half of the zombies I'm facing are ferals, and I continue to play at that pace and in that style, that ratio is going to lean even more towards radiated + feral, and less towards basic zombies. 

I also want to point out, if I play on a lower difficulty, that will cause me to be able to kill zombies faster, quest faster, use less resources (stamina, meds, food/water, ammo), and essentially "progress" my gamestage faster, so I'd get ferals and radiated zombies sooner. 

Hypothetically, someone else might play slower than me, and it might take them 80 hours to get to the point I was at 8 hours in. Then what? If they keep playing, they're just going to see a lower ratio of basic zombies. Your whole argument relies on players not progressing. Because if they do progress, ferals and radiated zombies aren't rare. 

Your comparisons are apples to oranges. You can't do that my guy.  At the end of the day, you are painting yourself in a corner and asking TFP to get you out of a scenario you created for yourself.
The corner I am in, is that I've tested the melee weapons extensively across multiple alphas, and I am very familiar with each of them. I get crunchy with those numbers, and I believe that the spear is lacking, both mechanically and cohesively. 

You've made this whole thing about your feelings. You feel like the spear is strong. You feel like I'm misrepresenting you. You feel like I'm incorrect. 
Regardless of how flawed I am as a person, this post isn't about me. I'm just here to bring the topic up about how the spear is lacking in easy-to-fix ways. 
You enjoy the spear. Great, love that for you. I don't enjoy it, because I know too much about how all of the melee weapons perform. 

Early game, the bone knife is really good. Late game the Stun Baton is really good. In all stages of the game Sledge and Club are really good. 
Knuckles deserve to be a quirky option, for quirky people. 
Machete deserves to fall off late game, because bone knife is so good early. 
Pipe Baton deserves to be the most difficult t0 melee weapon to craft, because Stun Baton is so strong in late game. 

Spear doesn't deserve to be as limited as it is in 7dtd. The spear is harder to aim. The spear is kind of slow. The spear costs too much stamina for how much damage it does. The spear has low knock-down. 

But this isn't really about numbers. Numbers can only tell you so much. It's about options. 

If you choose the spear as your main melee weapon, your options become more limited. You can't get close to enemies, because you don't have high knockdown. You can't stay at a distance with animals, because they aren't affected by your slow. 

I think the bigger question is, did you even read my suggested changes in the OP? If not, why not? If you did, why haven't you mentioned anything about them?

Spears are really strong If you get the penetrant book. And the fact they slow Zombies down, cause bleed and have ranged make it my favorite weapon class
Please read the post before replying to it. Thanks. 

The spear's slow doesn't apply to any animals. 

Also, you might want to look into the bleed that spears have. It's basically useless. The knife bleed can stack up to 7 times, you can apply multiple stacks per hit, has a 100% chance to apply, and it applies a slow to all enemies.
Spear bleed has 1 stack only with no slow, at most 32.5% chance (with the perk book + Serrated Blade mod), which is so little damage it might as well not exist. 

 
I can't be bothered to read 3 pages of info that could be written on a notepad as a first draft and then condensed. While I appreciate "your" effort, I don't have the time to read all this to form a response. Distill your thesis down and I will.

 
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I can't be bothered to read 3 pages of info that could be written on a notepad as a first draft and then condensed. While I appreciate "your" effort, I don't have the time to read all this to form a response. Distill your thesis down and I will.
I'm not your AI assistant, lol 

I think a better plan would be, could you tell me how to recreate your results? 

In my most recent multiplayer playthrough (dedicated server, Nomad difficulty), I got lucky and found a level 1 iron hunting knife very early on. Easily takes care of most things that the forest biome throws at me, including ferals. Since it's such a power spike, I skipped putting any points into melee skills, and instead invested in 3/3 Living off the Land and 3/5 The Huntsman. Built a base, have a forge, and working on the crop farm. Used molotovs during blood moon and then started going into The Daring Adventurer, Physician, Advanced Engineering in the Intellect tree. I sometimes use the knife for ferals, sometimes use a level 1 pistol, and sometimes use a level 4 pipe shotgun I found. I went out into the desert at night to just get some kills. Nomad is basically Adventurer. I don't need to invest into any combat skills whatsoever, and am having no difficulties in combat. With the exception that, I got 2 direwolves during blood moon, and I absolutely unloaded my pistol into them. (I am not trying to fight direwolves just yet, haha)

So at this casual playstyle/pace/difficulty, where I'm basically just being a farmer and am unaffected by the day/night cycle in terms of questing or combat, I am quite comfortable. Could I do this with a stone spear? Yes. Could I do this with any melee weapon? Yes. Are there some weapons that would perform better than others? Absolutely. 

So would you be able to "clue me in" as to how I should be playing so that the spear stands out compared to other melee weapons?

 
So would you be able to "clue me in" as to how I should be playing so that the spear stands out compared to other melee weapons?
I think the two most important things to playing with a spear is to get your max hit distance down really well, and never run out of stamina. ALWAYS be able to run. The issue I used to have a lot was I would power attack my way to 0 stamina and then couldn't run to get some distance. If you need to, be patient. I would say 95% of my spear hits are power attack headshots. I don't do anything else unless it's a rabbit or a chicken, or a damn crawler that is always hard to headshot. Everything else, I exclusively do power attack headshots, and never run out of stamina. I also always take parkour and exploit height advantage. If you aren't doing that, you are missing out on an easy way to cheese enemies when they can't reach you. That spear is LONG, their arms are short. That is my whole strategy.

Manage Distance
Manage Stamina
Exploit height advantage whenever possible

 
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The issue I used to have a lot was I would power attack my way to 0 stamina and then couldn't run to get some distance. If you need to, be patient.
You don't get full stamina on a kill with power attack? That feature is something I try to get as soon as possible. Only when dealing with too many zeds at once I might run low on stamina.

 
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You don't get full stamina on a kill with power attack? That feature is something I try to get as soon as possible. Only when dealing with too many zeds at once I might run low on stamina.
That's very late stage game. I am talking about basic tactics prior to getting specific buffs from levels/books

 
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