PC Perks System and Level Gates

[PoppaTot]

I wasn't too found of it either. It sounds terrible, at least on paper, the current level gating.Then i started playing, and.. no, i don't find it too bad anymore. I find that the crucibel to make

steel is probaly gated way to high, since steel is used in other recipes, like mods, and for repairs.

With the current level gating, even the magazines, at least some, can be quite useful. And with

the nerdy glasses, +1 crafting level, i can make purple stuff for selling with only int 8. Maybe

even INT 7, with glasses and magazine for int perks.

If anything, the current system is heaps better then what we started experimental with.

Though, you be right in that it requires fighting zombies. But, levelling seem to be easier

the higher one gets in level. Just play the game and the levels seem to just fly by anyway.

I liked in earlier experimentals that we could craft steel for repairs and mods when we unlocked the forge and made a crucible. Go ahead and level gate the steel tools, that's fine, just please stop level gating the steel itself.

 

[HungryZombie]

I liked in earlier experimentals that we could craft steel for repairs and mods when we unlocked the forge and made a crucible. Go ahead and level gate the steel tools, that's fine, just please stop level gating the steel itself.

would you mind the level gate as much if they guaranteed the trader would have forged steel on hand instead of it being random?

 

[PoppaTot]

would you mind the level gate as much if they guaranteed the trader would have forged steel on hand instead of it being random?

not really to be honest. If TFP is going to make things that I loot or unlock require steel to make, then they should allow me to make steel too. It's really simple. They say it's because they don't want people rushing to steel tools, fine, lock the tools and unlock the steel. EZPZ

 

[SilentAvenger]

My 2cents on the matter is i like being able to totally max my dude in SP, that way im able to be the one man army i need to be, were in MP specing is more my thing cause i know i have friends/allys that are able to back me up so i dont need to be a one man army.

Out of the options i picked learn by doing as to me that makes the most sence, as if your digging you would naturally get better at it instead of oh i leveled up lets just magically get better at shooting at gun somehow, my other pick was the last one having a unlimited level cap to me is kinda eh feels like theirs no goal, were having a cap set high enough to max everything while also giving you a sense of accomplishment by getting there.

hopfully i explained well enough not really the best at that kinda thing XD

 

[JoelleEmmily]

Level gating leads to the game being less fun... so today, for a demonstration, I recorded my play session to show how to exploit the mechanics to get a constant stream of Zombies to kill, how to use their pathing and AI to keep yourself from dying, and how easy it is to protect your staging structure. Some might consider almost a straight hour of zombie face pounding fun, I do not.

All settings are default except for hoard night, which is doubled, and air drops, which are lowered. I cranked the gamma correction so you can more easily see the video when it's nighttime, and I try to remember to turn on my headlamp to more accurately represent normal play. Over the course of the hour, I think I went up 4 or 5 levels. Again, I don't find this play style fun, I find it nessisary so that I may get the perks I want to play the game the way I want.

Also, I don't know why the recording's quality is so bad, OBS is annoying like that sometimes.

 

[Aldranon]

Level gating leads to the game being less fun... so today, for a demonstration, I recorded my play session to show how to exploit the mechanics to get a constant stream of Zombies to kill, how to use their pathing and AI to keep yourself from dying, and how easy it is to protect your staging structure. Some might consider almost a straight hour of zombie face pounding fun, I do not.
All settings are default except for hoard night, which is doubled, and air drops, which are lowered. I cranked the gamma correction so you can more easily see the video when it's nighttime, and I try to remember to turn on my headlamp to more accurately represent normal play. Over the course of the hour, I think I went up 4 or 5 levels. Again, I don't find this play style fun, I find it nessisary so that I may get the perks I want to play the game the way I want.

I understand what you were trying to show in the video, but there is a much easier way...

Open up progression.xml and change some or all of the level gates to 1 or whatever seems right for you. I have dropped most of the level gating to "1", except for the few perks that make the character too OP (until you are swimming in radiated zombies that is).

For me the top "Hammer & Forge" and "Tyrannosaurus" I put (modified) gates on. Those two with some other key perks let me walk into any POI, fall into any trap... and face-roll everything. (Until radiated get abundant, then its "Game On!" again).

In a game: "If its fun, its right" is the law.

 

[UtahSleeper]

Am I the only one that liked books for the big jumps? To me it properly represented how it might be during a zombie apocalypse. You don't learn something from just killing, you learn books or doing.

I like some aspects, like back pack encumbering you. Lots of plus and minuses, but the perks and level gating seems to suck some of the fun out. I enjoyed getting lucky and finding the books I needed early for things.

 

[RayneAngelus]

To expound upon my poll answers:

I prefer the old A16 perk/skill system (combination points/auto increase)

I liked the "you get better at stuff by doing it" system with pointbuy as a focus option and for specializing within an activity (perks)

I prefer how wellness is advanced by spending points in Fortitude and Agility

Before too long you got to the point where you couldn't actually advance your Wellness very quickly because you needed to eat, but were always full. I would actually intentionally give myself hypothermia by going outside wearing thermally negative clothing at night and partly submerging myself in water so that I would burn food stores faster and be able to eat more. Doing it by attributes is much more clean.

I prefer no level gates at all.

Let everyone do everything the way they want it, rather than following a fairly specific progression path. Is mobility/tech level more important to you than upkeep? Combat capability? Dump those points in Intelligence!

I prefer a high enough cap on levels so that you can max out your character.

Though the chance is I will never reach the cap in a given game, I somehow accidentally glitched to 300 on b240 exp but couldn't flesh out the entire tree, and this made me sad.

Am I the only one that liked books for the big jumps? To me it properly represented how it might be during a zombie apocalypse. You don't learn something from just killing, you learn books or doing.
I like some aspects, like back pack encumbering you. Lots of plus and minuses, but the perks and level gating seems to suck some of the fun out. I enjoyed getting lucky and finding the books I needed early for things.

I really miss the books. Learning serious stuff like how to build a bike just by spending an experience point feels... weak. Although it is nice to not have to go several weeks in game without mechanized transport just because you're unlucky, so I guess I'm both happy and sad about it?

 

[Iirlyaccess]

Am I the only one that liked books for the big jumps? To me it properly represented how it might be during a zombie apocalypse. You don't learn something from just killing, you learn books or doing.
I like some aspects, like back pack encumbering you. Lots of plus and minuses, but the perks and level gating seems to suck some of the fun out. I enjoyed getting lucky and finding the books I needed early for things.

You are definitely not the only one who misses the books. I totally miss them. When i found that minibike book i felt like I had finally earned that bike. Or i earned that Crossbow. I also felt like exploring was a bit more fun and finding one of those big Crack a books was like Christmas morning. Also leveling up a skill by using it. that is something I really miss. The level gating doesn't bug me except for the fact that some of it just doesn't make sense. I can make a forge at level ten, yet I still can't make metal tools for 10 more levels? That makes no sense.

 

[grieferbastard]

Nobody really ever used iron tools, no reason to. Jesus I hated spamming crafting to advance crafting skills to get the things I needed for when I gelt like farming zombies -

Because there was 0 risk in A16. You'd spend a couple days of mind numbing boredom in a cave spamming crafts and mining, then you'd go kite zombies at book stores (again, 0 risk if you're not completely dense) and see if RNG gave you the books you needed. That always felt arbitrary and divorced from any skill or decisions I made.

Then you'd slam out top tier steel gear and if you felt like it make a zombie killing trap of a base where you'd eat popcorn and watch zombies die for 15 minutes. It was Minecraft Creative mode with a graphics overhaul but even less threatening enemies.

Then you were done with A16 and that's when some of us uninstalled.

I think a lot can change in the level gating but it has me making strategic choices about resources and points. I don't feel safe and I feel like all my advancement is done commensurate with risk. It would also be cool if I could only be able to craft to a certain level and top level stuff gets looted only.

 

[Dunkurtin]

Nobody really ever used iron tools, no reason to. Jesus I hated spamming crafting to advance crafting skills to get the things I needed for when I gelt like farming zombies -
Because there was 0 risk in A16. You'd spend a couple days of mind numbing boredom in a cave spamming crafts and mining, then you'd go kite zombies at book stores (again, 0 risk if you're not completely dense) and see if RNG gave you the books you needed. That always felt arbitrary and divorced from any skill or decisions I made.

Then you'd slam out top tier steel gear and if you felt like it make a zombie killing trap of a base where you'd eat popcorn and watch zombies die for 15 minutes. It was Minecraft Creative mode with a graphics overhaul but even less threatening enemies.

Then you were done with A16 and that's when some of us uninstalled.

I think a lot can change in the level gating but it has me making strategic choices about resources and points. I don't feel safe and I feel like all my advancement is done commensurate with risk. It would also be cool if I could only be able to craft to a certain level and top level stuff gets looted only.

What about all the single player people who didn't use the exploits because we weren't competing with others? So we used the system as intended while waiting for the exploits to actually be ironed out? Instead what we got was an update that gutted the game removing 80% of the content and replacing it with new systems that only fill about 50% of the huge hole that was created.

WIth the old system, what you decided to dedicate any given day to mattered. You can work on gathering materials and stockpiling food, or base improvements(which are now just completely pointless as nomad is now the optimal meta instead of a challenge run), go out scavenging for specific items you need(because if you wanted and auger you had to look in hardware stores or construction sites specifically not just go anywhere and bash zombie heads till you magically know how to make one). Oftern you could not do more than one or two of these tasks at any gven time. If you nelected one thing too much it would leave a weakness in your defence come horde night. Now you always have one priority task every day except for the half day before horde night. Go and fight zombies. Meaning has been removed from all player decisions and actions. The game is now "play how madmole likes or don't play at all" (and lets be honest, madmole is a simple dude, which is why all the changes are simplifications of previously rich and diverse systems).

This update was a downgrade in features. No matter how much they try to spin it as anything else.

 

[SerotoninCraver]

Level gating leads to the game being less fun... so today, for a demonstration, I recorded my play session to show how to exploit the mechanics to get a constant stream of Zombies to kill, how to use their pathing and AI to keep yourself from dying, and how easy it is to protect your staging structure. Some might consider almost a straight hour of zombie face pounding fun, I do not.
All settings are default except for hoard night, which is doubled, and air drops, which are lowered. I cranked the gamma correction so you can more easily see the video when it's nighttime, and I try to remember to turn on my headlamp to more accurately represent normal play. Over the course of the hour, I think I went up 4 or 5 levels. Again, I don't find this play style fun, I find it nessisary so that I may get the perks I want to play the game the way I want.

You can cheese this base design even further. On the long bridge to your fighting platform, place a full block of cobblestone every other block along its length.

Zombies have built-in delays of around 1.5 seconds every time they jump or land from a jump. By forcing them to jump and land repeatedly in order to traverse that bridge, you can slow down their progress considerably, and they will almost never strike the blocks they need to jump over. In your video it looks like it takes runners about 7 seconds to get from the top of the stairs to you, where they fall. By adding the jump blocks, it'll be more like 25 seconds. You can also replace the staircase stair blocks with full blocks for more delay.

 

[grieferbastard]

What about all the single player people who didn't use the exploits because we weren't competing with others? So we used the system as intended while waiting for the exploits to actually be ironed out? Instead what we got was an update that gutted the game removing 80% of the content and replacing it with new systems that only fill about 50% of the huge hole that was created.
WIth the old system, what you decided to dedicate any given day to mattered. You can work on gathering materials and stockpiling food, or base improvements(which are now just completely pointless as nomad is now the optimal meta instead of a challenge run), go out scavenging for specific items you need(because if you wanted and auger you had to look in hardware stores or construction sites specifically not just go anywhere and bash zombie heads till you magically know how to make one). Oftern you could not do more than one or two of these tasks at any gven time. If you nelected one thing too much it would leave a weakness in your defence come horde night. Now you always have one priority task every day except for the half day before horde night. Go and fight zombies. Meaning has been removed from all player decisions and actions. The game is now "play how madmole likes or don't play at all" (and lets be honest, madmole is a simple dude, which is why all the changes are simplifications of previously rich and diverse systems).

This update was a downgrade in features. No matter how much they try to spin it as anything else.

I would argue that nothing you did mattered because the game was a risk free environment. Your decisions were meaningless in the same way building a nice base in Minecraft Creative mode is meaningless, because there's no real risk or challenge unless you arbitrarily create one.

Which is fine. Play how you want. The question is, what's the default experience. Because A16 was never a zombie survival game. Not even close. It was a watered down crating game that hard zombies you could go kill when you wanted to.

I do hate the new stamina system, especially starting out. It's like you start out as a 60 year old asthmatic couch potato who struggles if he's got to walk to the kitchen for another beer and needs a meal and a nap if he's got to climb some stairs.

Not saying A17 is perfect but if the polls are any indication about half the players found A16 more or less pointless and unplayable. I'm all for crafting being viable and bases being able to be sturdy enough to be relevant but if you can simply ignore the zombies and go craft to level up you're eliminating all the risk while getting the same reward. That sort of situation should be possible but via a creative mode or toggle, even just toggles on zombie behavior. Not the default.

 

[Dunkurtin]

I would argue that nothing you did mattered because the game was a risk free environment. Your decisions were meaningless in the same way building a nice base in Minecraft Creative mode is meaningless, because there's no real risk or challenge unless you arbitrarily create one.
Which is fine. Play how you want. The question is, what's the default experience. Because A16 was never a zombie survival game. Not even close. It was a watered down crating game that hard zombies you could go kill when you wanted to.

I do hate the new stamina system, especially starting out. It's like you start out as a 60 year old asthmatic couch potato who struggles if he's got to walk to the kitchen for another beer and needs a meal and a nap if he's got to climb some stairs.

Not saying A17 is perfect but if the polls are any indication about half the players found A16 more or less pointless and unplayable. I'm all for crafting being viable and bases being able to be sturdy enough to be relevant but if you can simply ignore the zombies and go craft to level up you're eliminating all the risk while getting the same reward. That sort of situation should be possible but via a creative mode or toggle, even just toggles on zombie behavior. Not the default.

And I would argue that there is no risk in A17, seeing as the optimal play style is now to have no base. Your generalisation of A16 having no risk only applies to those who played in a way to minimize risk, which was one of many playstyles(and should still be a valid one in a sandbox survival rpg as it's a legitimate survival strat, but this update changed the game to an action survival game with light rpg elements). If you can't come up with any arguments that don't rely on that faulty premise then your argument is obviously not very solid is it?

ANd what polls are you looking at? Every poll available that I can find is over half preferred the old systems. Or is there a secret poll in some A17 fan club the rest of us haven't voted in?

EDIT: Seriously though, on that last point, WHAT polls are you looking at? Because you aren't looking at the one right here that's for certain. Specifically on the perk system, not even a full third of voters support the new system. Just over 30%, while the remaining ~68% prefer either the old system or one that is purely "learn by doing". The majority do not want this archaic, lazy progression system that does not suit this genre of game.

And funnily enough, out of all the poorly implemented changes, the perk system is the one that madmole is intent on "dyng on", when it's also the one system that isn't fixable by mere balancing and tweaking. You can't tweak poor core game design into something good.

 

[SevenDaysToDieModEditor]

I prefer the skill system of a15.

I think that spamming crafting can be improved by one or more of the following.

1 Set to obtain appropriate exp for each creation tool.

In order to do spaming crafting it is necessary to gather materials. spam crafting creates stone shovel, but iron axe has more exp, so it will be done there. Iron material is hard to gather from stones and woods so spaming crafting makes it more difficult.

2 waste fullness and stamina with craft.

If wasting fullness and stamina with craft it will be necessary to gather more food.

3 Get smith skill's exp not only with craft but with tool use and repair.

4 Reduce the exp obtained by crafting continuously.

5 Make zombie more responsive to craft noise.

6 Change the quality depending on the type of craft tool.

tool smith lv 20 stone axe quality 200 iron axe quality 25 steel axe quality 25.

tool smith lv 40 stone axe quality 300 iron axe quality 200 steel axe quality 25.

tool smith lv 60 stone axe quality 400 iron axe quality 300 steel axe quality 200.

My idea is above, but there may be other better ways as well.

 

[Dunkurtin]

Craft spamming can be fixed just by implementing diminishing returns on every craft beyond first time. Set a lower limit of say 10% of original xp gain.

Set tools and weapons to hit lower limit after 100 crafts. Building items that require to be built/rebuilt more often after 1000. Sure its technically still possible to grind like this but it is now extremely slow. Problem solved. Or just gut the whole game. That's logical. :rolleyes2:

 

[Poojam]

Craft spamming can be fixed just by implementing diminishing returns on every craft beyond first time. Set a lower limit of say 10% of original xp gain. Set tools and weapons to hit lower limit after 100 crafts. Building items that require to be built/rebuilt more often after 1000. Sure its technically still possible to grind like this but it is now extremely slow. Problem solved. Or just gut the whole game. That's logical. :rolleyes2:

Spam crafting was the modus operandi in A15 and removed in A16. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Dunkurtin]

Spam crafting was the modus operandi in A15 and removed in A16. I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm merely responding to the ridiculous reason that keeps getting waved around as a reason this update is supposedly good. Craft spamming was never something I did personally, even in A15, as such I wasn't 100% sure if there was still some way to do it and benefit in A16. I never went out of my way to look for ways to level easier. That's just what people keep screaming about to justify this train wreck.

 

[grieferbastard]

And I would argue that there is no risk in A17, seeing as the optimal play style is now to have no base. Your generalisation of A16 having no risk only applies to those who played in a way to minimize risk, which was one of many playstyles(and should still be a valid one in a sandbox survival rpg as it's a legitimate survival strat, but this update changed the game to an action survival game with light rpg elements). If you can't come up with any arguments that don't rely on that faulty premise then your argument is obviously not very solid is it?
ANd what polls are you looking at? Every poll available that I can find is over half preferred the old systems. Or is there a secret poll in some A17 fan club the rest of us haven't voted in?

EDIT: Seriously though, on that last point, WHAT polls are you looking at? Because you aren't looking at the one right here that's for certain. Specifically on the perk system, not even a full third of voters support the new system. Just over 30%, while the remaining ~68% prefer either the old system or one that is purely "learn by doing". The majority do not want this archaic, lazy progression system that does not suit this genre of game.

And funnily enough, out of all the poorly implemented changes, the perk system is the one that madmole is intent on "dyng on", when it's also the one system that isn't fixable by mere balancing and tweaking. You can't tweak poor core game design into something good.

There are two pinned polls and a 3rd poll on page 4 about zombie loot. Given that the poll about 'do you like A17 better' is about 70% preferring it and the zombie loot poll is about 60/40, the only place that likes the old system more is people are about 60/40 in favor of no level gating.

Your argument is entirely based upon a faulty premise. Requiring assumption of risk to advance QUICKLY (because you can still advance without risk, dig to bedrock and bike around on horde night) doesn't invalidate any other approach to the game. If you really, really want to you can dig to bedrock and spam stone axes until you've leveled to 100. It's just no longer the optimal way to advance in the game.

As I said before, give digging zombies a toggle button, just like zombies running at night. If someone wants an easier game where they can just putter around and dig a hole and skip right to steel tools and make a trap base where they can sip tea and watch zombies die or godmode out in elite gear just like A16.

The only thing in question there is what's the default experience. The game has a creative mode, you can still play whatever playstyle you want. No choices were removed there just the illusion that playing with near 0 risk is the same challenge level as playing in an environment that isn't safe.

The perk system is likely to stay because gating in one form or another is the only way to create progression. A16 had 0 progression. It was more or less playing in creative mode but with 15-30 minutes of kiting daytime zombies and digging a tunnel to go craft in before creative was largely unlocked and you could just make steel whatever, kite zombies out of bookstores and apartments, go collect books and make whatever. It was window dressing on a creativemode game environment. Can the perk system be improved? Absolutely. Is the game likely to go back to 0 meaningful progression and low/no risk advancement being as fast or faster than some/high risk advancement? Unlikely, at least as the default experience.

Madmole is likely dedicated to the perk system because in any game development players generally want it all now. They don't want to use stone or iron tools. They don't want to fight to get stuff. They want to get to the best stuff as fast as possible, at least if you ask them. In game play however that means that 90% of the content just exists to remind players that their tools/equipment/armor is the *best* tools/equipment/armor. So if you only had steel tools and such people would say there's not enough content, but then complain if they have to use anything that's not the best stuff.

Hence gating, to force players to use lower tier gear for a while so that you're progressing to the top tier stuff not all but starting with it. A16 nobody used stone tools and iron tools save to mine the resources to get steel ones... so why not just remove them?

 

[Dunkurtin]

There are two pinned polls and a 3rd poll on page 4 about zombie loot. Given that the poll about 'do you like A17 better' is about 70% preferring it and the zombie loot poll is about 60/40, the only place that likes the old system more is people are about 60/40 in favor of no level gating.
Your argument is entirely based upon a faulty premise. Requiring assumption of risk to advance QUICKLY (because you can still advance without risk, dig to bedrock and bike around on horde night) doesn't invalidate any other approach to the game. If you really, really want to you can dig to bedrock and spam stone axes until you've leveled to 100. It's just no longer the optimal way to advance in the game.

As I said before, give digging zombies a toggle button, just like zombies running at night. If someone wants an easier game where they can just putter around and dig a hole and skip right to steel tools and make a trap base where they can sip tea and watch zombies die or godmode out in elite gear just like A16.

The only thing in question there is what's the default experience. The game has a creative mode, you can still play whatever playstyle you want. No choices were removed there just the illusion that playing with near 0 risk is the same challenge level as playing in an environment that isn't safe.

The perk system is likely to stay because gating in one form or another is the only way to create progression. A16 had 0 progression. It was more or less playing in creative mode but with 15-30 minutes of kiting daytime zombies and digging a tunnel to go craft in before creative was largely unlocked and you could just make steel whatever, kite zombies out of bookstores and apartments, go collect books and make whatever. It was window dressing on a creativemode game environment. Can the perk system be improved? Absolutely. Is the game likely to go back to 0 meaningful progression and low/no risk advancement being as fast or faster than some/high risk advancement? Unlikely, at least as the default experience.

Madmole is likely dedicated to the perk system because in any game development players generally want it all now. They don't want to use stone or iron tools. They don't want to fight to get stuff. They want to get to the best stuff as fast as possible, at least if you ask them. In game play however that means that 90% of the content just exists to remind players that their tools/equipment/armor is the *best* tools/equipment/armor. So if you only had steel tools and such people would say there's not enough content, but then complain if they have to use anything that's not the best stuff.

Hence gating, to force players to use lower tier gear for a while so that you're progressing to the top tier stuff not all but starting with it. A16 nobody used stone tools and iron tools save to mine the resources to get steel ones... so why not just remove them?

Why should i bother reading this entire post when you start by not even bothering to properly represent the poll results. The other poll you mention, 30% prefer it, ~30% are happy to tolerate it for the few improvements with hope the rest will be fixed (aka they dont like it as is but have hope) and the rest are ambivalent or dislike it.

ANd you never actually pointed out how my premise was faulty? Just misrepresented it completely. Responding to me actually explaining the fault in your premise with the same accusation doesn't make it true. Digging to bedrock and mass crafting was never efficient in A16, let alone the most efficient. Are you incapable of making an argument without relying on completely fabricated exaggerations? Also what is your issue with being able to do something else to level other skills when that is what this entire patch revolves around? Except now it IS the most efficient way to do everything, instead of being slow and innefficient like it should be.

Gating is not the only way to create progression, A16 arguably had more progression than A17, just because you say it didn't doesn't make it true. Especially as you can't back it up by making all the different skills you needed to actually work on disappear. There is actually a really good post in another thread that explains how gated perk trees came into being and why they are not suitable for this game style. They are an archaic form of artificially slowing progression for end game boss fights. Something this game doesn't have. They work best for story driven games, something this game is not. A gated perk system in a survival sandbox is lazy and bad game design. The old system was rich and diverse, giving varying rewards for different playstyles, the new one gives the same rewards for the one optmal playstyle. Replayability is dead with this update. Every playthrough will feel the same as the last because you don;t have options anymore.

This isn't a crafting survival horde rpg anymore, it's an action game with lightweight rpg, survival and crafting elements now.

Madmole is dedicated to the perk system because it's simple, and unfortunately, he is rather simple minded, as he has proven extensively with his response to the criticism of this update and his innability to understand why people are so unhappy.