PC Perks System and Level Gates

[SgtThompson]

I prefer the old A16 perk/skill system (combination points/auto increase) WITH some modifications:

- Auto-increase skills shouldn't be something you spend points on. Perks should be point-based.

I prefer how wellness is advanced by spending points in Fortitude and Agility.

- I went for months not dying, and never starving in 16.4, and I don't think I even maxed out the health. I don't know why, but it was kind of frustrating.

- Stamina is infuriating now. It needs to be much less restrictive insofar as walking around the giant world is concerned.

I prefer no level gates at all. (The points alone are gates)

I prefer a high enough cap on levels so that you can max out your character.

- I don't see any value in this restriction. Basically that means I'll have to log out, log into another character to do the things I need to do that I didn't have points for, then log back into my "main". That's not fun. People I play with tend to specialist anyway, so forcing players to do it seems arbitrarily excessive.

 

[ivailogeimara]

For modders A17 is like the first Doom was for the shooter genre, I believe.
1) a vastly better and more general buff system

2) and the ability to add your own variables to entities

3) and the ability to add mods without overwriting the original xml files or mangle over other mods. Just look into the mod section and see all kinds of small mods (called modlets) that only modify a single feature. And you can install many of them without them interfering with each other.

No comparison with the stone age of A16 really if you only look at the modding systems.

By A16 system I meant the A16 skill system. It's far more flexible than A17 one. I didn't mean modding in general. Modding in general is way better in A17.

Lets say I want to level the strength attribute only by doing specific things. I can't mod the game to behave like that with the A17 system. But I believe I can mod the A16 skill system to behave like A17 one. (I may be wrong because I haven't played A16 in a long time and I don't remember A16 XML files). So with the A16 skill system: I can make it to work like A17 one (or at least close to the A17 one), I can make a new skill system that is mix between A16 and A17 or I can leave it to behave like A16 one.

 

[Greymantle]

Best version ever! After 17 I couldn't play any other version now. With modlets already people can change the experience to be more like earlier versions if that is what they are looking for.

 

[Blue]

Well in either case, Magazines are broken with the current system. Since you can't use them without being the right level and skill level, you end up not ever using them.

 

[ivailogeimara]

Just messed with A16 XML files and I couldn't find anywhere something about what action you should do to level a skill. Is this hard coded?

If TFP bring back the A16 skill system (level by doing + points) we should be able to set what action levels the skill.

And if you want to make it behave like A17 one we will just make everything <perk> and the required_skill_name XML_attribute will be set to something like "PlayerLevel".

I don't understand why is that so hard to make. Why we have to choose between A16 system or A17 one? Make it mod-able so anyone can choose the system they like. If some people want points only (optionally +Level Caps) let them have it. If some people want points+auto_level let them have it. You can also add spending="false" XML_attribute that will block leveling the skill by using points and that way people that want leveling only by doing will get what they want.

I just don't understand why that so hard to make the system that way.

And the A17 system is even less modifiable. WTF? With how modding friendly this game is, I can't believe that the skill system is so locked and inflexible when it comes to modding.

 

[Anarath]

Just messed with A16 XML files and I couldn't find anywhere something about what action you should do to level a skill. Is this hard coded?If TFP bring back the A16 skill system (level by doing + points) we should be able to set what action levels the skill.

And if you want to make it behave like A17 one we will just make everything <perk> and the required_skill_name XML_attribute will be set to something like "PlayerLevel".

I don't understand why is that so hard to make. Why we have to choose between A16 system or A17 one? Make it mod-able so anyone can choose the system they like. If some people want points only (optionally +Level Caps) let them have it. If some people want points+auto_level let them have it. You can also add spending="false" XML_attribute that will block leveling the skill by using points and that way people that want leveling only by doing will get what they want.

I just don't understand why that so hard to make the system that way.

And the A17 system is even less modifiable. WTF? With how modding friendly this game is, I can't believe that the skill system is so locked and inflexible when it comes to modding.

Thats disappointing. Thought we could mod the old system back if we wanted to. Very sad to hear that. Hope TFP will rethink that approach.

 

[ivailogeimara]

Thats disappointing. Thought we could mod the old system back if we wanted to. Very sad to hear that. Hope TFP will rethink that approach.

It's very strange that they didn't just add "PlayerLevel" value to the required_skill_name XML_attribute and just make everything <perk> (That would essentially become the A17 skill system). Why did they spend time rewriting the whole skill system when the could just expand the old one and make it more modifiable and then modify it themselves through the XMLs if they wanted? Who the hell designs these things? With how much stuff is exposed to the XML files overall I just don't understand why they designed the skill system that way.

 

[Aldranon]

Most people have a predisposition to excell at something, so has anyone thought of this:

BEFORE game start, you select what your character is good at doing and optionally, what your character is bad at doing (if you want a focused character).

Using the current A17 system, you can give your character a level gate reduction in any categories (Str, Int, Fort, ect) that totals up to 40%.

If you want a focused character you can increase one category cost by 50% for an additional 30% reduction in one category.

So, I could make a character like this:

Intelligence: 30% reduction in level gate.

Strength: 10% reduction.

If I want to focus my character more on Intelligence for a sacrifice on agility my character would look like this

Intelligence: 60% reduction in level gating.

Strength: 10% Reduction.

Agility: 50% increase to level gating.

Its a thought.

 

[Frekton]

Bumping because this is getting lost and should be pinned seeing as it's the devs own poll. lol....

 

[KingMigi]

Most people have a predisposition to excell at something, so has anyone thought of this:
BEFORE game start, you select what your character is good at doing and optionally, what your character is bad at doing (if you want a focused character).

Using the current A17 system, you can give your character a level gate reduction in any categories (Str, Int, Fort, ect) that totals up to 40%.

If you want a focused character you can increase one category cost by 50% for an additional 30% reduction in one category.

So, I could make a character like this:

Intelligence: 30% reduction in level gate.

Strength: 10% reduction.

If I want to focus my character more on Intelligence for a sacrifice on agility my character would look like this

Intelligence: 60% reduction in level gating.

Strength: 10% Reduction.

Agility: 50% increase to level gating.

Its a thought.

I like it! Obviously it would require fine-tuning, but I like the way it could give players the CHOICE of level gating and specializing but not force them into it. Good idea homie!

 

[Nighty]

Voted for completly learn by doing, wellness by eating, no level gates and no level caps. However from what know, this new system is staying no matter what so who cares what we want.

 

[Kaiote]

Voted for completly learn by doing, wellness by eating, no level gates and no level caps. However from what know, this new system is staying no matter what so who cares what we want.

Thats awesome. Its also exactly the opposite of how I voted. Excited to see where they go either way!

 

[Nighty]

Thats awesome. Its also exactly the opposite of how I voted. Excited to see where they go either way!

Don't hold thy breath, MM loves his new system + he got tons of money for all those years from sales, why shouldn't he follow his dreams no matter the cost then.

Also to point it out, not hating this new system, mostly hating that systems consequences like needing concrete to survive a higher difficulty horde which is level gated. Will just say it like this, is playable, nothing mind blowing or anything but playable, just still prefering the old system where there was any incentive to do different kinds of tasks or exploring for recipes, now those are gone, never exploring past early game bcs can craft anything.

 

[Aldranon]

I like it! Obviously it would require fine-tuning, but I like the way it could give players the CHOICE of level gating and specializing but not force them into it. Good idea homie!

Its just to get the creative wheels turning.

That brings up what you hinted at: "Specialization" and "Gifted" people

"Gifted" at all metal crafting or "Specialized" at making Cutting weapons (for example).

So if you have excellence in one of these you can make LEGENDARY items! A gifted person can spend a long time maybe one full day even! Then the item is a tier 6 with MAX tier mods in it. For example.

You could be Gifted in some strength capacity! That just sounds fun without any explanation.

Of course for balance there would need to be some negatives just like most gifted people IRL.

 

[Aldranon]

I like it! Obviously it would require fine-tuning, but I like the way it could give players the CHOICE of level gating and specializing but not force them into it. Good idea homie!

Its just to get the creative wheels turning.

That brings up what you hinted at: "Specialization" and "Gifted" people

"Gifted" at all metal crafting or "Specialized" at making Cutting weapons (for example).

So if you have excellence in one of these you can make LEGENDARY items! A gifted person can spend a long time maybe one full day even! Then the item is a tier 6 with MAX tier mod in it.

You can be Gifted in some strength capacity! That just sounds fun without any explanation.

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

The last update fixed a lot of the level gating via traders. Now i do missions for money so i can buy concrete. Thanks to the traders i have bypassed multiple level gates to make a high level horde base before the first horde. Granted, if you are playing an rng map, and RNGesus has abandoned you, then you will be in a lot of trouble.

But the trader quests and rewards do help a lot.

 

[RyanX]

Polls are a bad way to decide what changes you will make to a game. You'll end up pissing off half the player base if you implement the results.

 

[Myrrah]

And the removal of RNG is one of the issues people who dislike the perk system have. They (we) don't want RNG to be removed.
And the overall "spirit" of the game now is, that if you want something you: Gotta go kill zombies. Want to unlock the minibike? Kill zombies. Wanna learn how to grill meat? Kill zombies. Wana increase your health? Kill zombies. Wanna kill zombies more effectively? Kill zombies. Well, that last example does "even" make sense.

A16 was diversified. Wanna unlock the minibike? Find the book. Wanna increase your health? Eat well. Wanna improve a skill? Do the corresponding activity. And some thing also were perks (which I found bad too, though).

Everything you have said in this thread are my feelings exactly. ahhh-skyrim. Very few games give you that epic adventure by crafting a character through learning and doing feel like skyrim. This one was headed there i thought

edit: i think the intrinsic problem with most games following the big mmo model of level grinds is that it feels so artificial. You don't just suddenly "git gud" at something simply by aging. Obviously in this scenario-a 50 year old businessman who hardly ever left his office pre zombie apocolypse isn't going to just know how to craft guns and ammo simply because he's 50. He would have to read, practice, etc.

 

[meganoth]

edit: i think the intrinsic problem with most games following the big mmo model of level grinds is that it feels so artificial. You don't just suddenly "git gud" at something simply by aging. Obviously in this scenario-a 50 year old businessman who hardly ever left his office pre zombie apocolypse isn't going to just know how to craft guns and ammo simply because he's 50. He would have to read, practice, etc.

Try it in 7 days: Stay some place. Don't do anything, just sit there and wait for horde night. You might be surprised that you didn't "git gud". :fat:

(Sorry, but I think your example is a little too hyperbole for its own good)

 

[srsen]

i like the perk system in a17.

i prefer wellness separate from eating.

Level gates initially appear very annoying but after a few playthroughs, the games pace is SO MUCH BETTER. Maybe some tweaking is needed based on feedback, but overall its the right way forward.

i think you should be able to choose between maxing out or specializing. so why not make it an option in game setup..?

finally, levelling up a skill by doing said skill should be included but not exclusively or OP. i love the freedom of not having to stick to melee coz you started melee early. i hate having to overkill / cstchup ranged for a week coz ypu started ranged late in the game

Over 300 hours played since A9