PC Perks System and Level Gates

[Ghostlight]

There is NO GAME I know that has levelgating and is actually a good game.

I can name one....

7 Days to Die, alpha 16

Everyone forgets that A16 had plenty of level-gating. Steel was locked behind Toolsmithing 6 (level 40), and Chem Stations behind Science 7 (level 60) to name but a few.

You know why people forget this? Because the skill/perk system in A16 was elegant, and had the "get better at x by doing x" factor which most players find very satisfying (and sensible!). In addition, A16 design was elegant enough to NOT lock crucial stuff like making a Forge or boiling an egg behind a perk.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I didn't forget. And I complained back then as well. Because its stupid.

But at least back then it was nothing necessary (like a forge! Or more intentoryspace) and it wasn't level 100, but level 40/60.

But yes. it was way more elegant... even though I still disliked it and I simply abused the traders to get my steelpick level 25 anyways. Also I think it was never that you couldn't craft the things, but that the thing to craft it was locked (crucible and chemstation) you coulod still produce (I think! long time ago) the steel if you found a crucible.

 

[Ghostlight]

See, I think we just want different things. The last thing I wanna hunt for is lame gun parts. Never have done that. In alpha 16 when i was done looting i was done. And i was ok with that. I spend my time grinding and building and I loved it. Will be interesting if that is the same feeling I get in alpha 17.
I get your playstyle and what you want. We just dont want the same things. I would hope you would agree neither of us is right. It's just different playstyles.

Well I am not sure what difficulty you played on Kage, but to me (on max) A16 was always an arms race between me and the zombies. I *had* to go out looting for parts to improve my overall firepower enough to be able to deal with next horde night. Coz those zombies are just getting meaner every day (and also your GS did not fall so drastically on dying as it does now in A17! Another major problem I will need to start a thread on soon).

So there was impetus and necessity driving me to explore. So what was your end-game if it wasn't looting for player progression items?

 

[ktr]

A few points...
1) You are GUARENTEED a Forge at level 20. That's day 5. Which is more or less when you got it on average in A16 depending on your luck with Leather and Short Pipes.

2) Your level 20 is Forge is guarenteed. How is it a challenge? I had 35 Pipes when I hit level 20 last play-through.

3) None of us will ever have to deal with the challenge of facing the first horde with no Iron, since it will never happen again to anyone. Ever.

4) Iron tools are only marginally better than Stone at collecting resources. And given early stamina issues, they are arguable just the same so you don't really need Iron early on. Similarly Wood spikes and the new Wood bars are totally adequate for the first Horde anyway, so again, you really don't need Iron by day 7.

5) Iron Arrows I hear you say? I had 150 of them (from looting) for the first horde and several guns and a ton of ammo, so again....Iron / Forge not needed.

Challenging? Nah, I'll have it at level 20. Guaranteed.

Back in A15 when we had to use animal hides, it sometimes took me until day 5 to get a forge, but I can legit say that in A16, I had one up on the second day, day 3 at the latest and that wasn't from lack of materials to build one but because I hadn't settled on a POI to make my base yet. Leather was easy to come by - couches, animal hides, scrapping leather clothes, the leather chairs. The pipes were also plentiful and at most required beating up a couple of toilets if needed. Stone and clay were both easy to get.

 

[meganoth]

I don't think hardcore players are like that, I think hardcore players are the ones that go far far over triple digit days and build huge elaborate bases. They will want stuff asap.

Well, by your definition a nomad player on insane difficulty isn't hardcore. The "I will want stuff asap"-players in this forum seemed to call themselves sandbox players, as far as I could tell.

The biggest change I think might need to be made is to trader inventories so we aren't totally at the mercy of RNG & level gating. Perhaps there should be a set of tools always in their inventory so that if we are below lvl 20 and RNG really hates us, we still have the guaranteed option to buy. So, now the player again has a choice of opportunity - loot to sell things they don't need to get what they want and/or run trader quests.

Personally, I am finding loot to be more valuable in A17 than in A16 because of the level gating. I can't have iron tools by Day 2 and finding them is a great find whereas in A16, I could already make any tool (except maybe the wrench) long before I found any and any I found were way worse than what I could make. Basically, they were scrap metal and nothing else. I'm finding that to be true of a lot of items that were more or less "Scrap and it go" very early in A16.

If the tools were guaranteed to be found at the trader, there would be no use for other ways of getting them, everyone would just buy them. Sure, they could be made very expensive (and unsellable, otherwise they would be easy duke generators). My experience was that they were easy enough to be found or bought. And if you really missed out on one of them there will always be the "emergency aid" available at level 20.

IMO either the stone axe shouldn't be so much worse than the fire axe so that nobody would be "forced" to have a fire axe, but practically un-upgradbale (with perks or mods) so that the switch to fire axe is still a priority.

Or a stone axe should have its own perk tree (with no or very low gates). Don't find an axe, bite the bullet and upgrade the axe. But even the fully upgraded axe would be just on the level of a blank fire axe. Makes a hard choice between useable axe immediately or better perk usage long term

Fully agree with what you say about early loot and iron tools. At least in the early phase of A17 there is a lot of variety just because you might or might not find some of the tools.

 

[ktr]

Well, by your definition a nomad player on insane difficulty isn't hardcore. The "I will want stuff asap"-players in this forum seemed to call themselves sandbox players, as far as I could tell.


If the tools were guaranteed to be found at the trader, there would be no use for other ways of getting them, everyone would just buy them. Sure, they could be made very expensive (and unsellable, otherwise they would be easy duke generators). My experience was that they were easy enough to be found or bought. And if you really missed out on one of them there will always be the "emergency aid" available at level 20.

IMO either the stone axe shouldn't be so much worse than the fire axe so that nobody would be "forced" to have a fire axe, but practically un-upgradbale (with perks or mods) so that the switch to fire axe is still a priority.

Or a stone axe should have its own perk tree (with no or very low gates). Don't find an axe, bite the bullet and upgrade the axe. But even the fully upgraded axe would be just on the level of a blank fire axe. Makes a hard choice between useable axe immediately or better perk usage long term

Fully agree with what you say about early loot and iron tools. At least in the early phase of A17 there is a lot of variety just because you might or might not find some of the tools.

I think it's expense that might be key if they were made guaranteed and perhaps only Q1's should be guaranteed. My experiences with looting/buying /earning through quests has been a mixed bag. First playthrough - I couldn't find a working forge in any of the traders or forge houses despite there being roughly 10 (I had four traders all in one area and several of the houses). None of those four traders carried tools outside of the knife and hoes. After looting a working a stiffs store and a few other POIs with WS boxes, I had like ten hoes, a nail gun, and a stock pile of wrenches. I think around day 10 I finally found an axe which was bittersweet since I just leveled up to 20 as well.

Another play through, I found several tools and the traders carried a few as well/had them as quest rewards.

I don't really mind it or using the wood axe, yeah it's slow, but I can still gather a surplus of what I need for that first horde night which is all I'm really concerned about. But I also appreciate the advantage of the iron tools and can see were RNG just hating you could be super annoying for people.

 

[Krougal]

Back in A15 when we had to use animal hides, it sometimes took me until day 5 to get a forge, but I can legit say that in A16, I had one up on the second day, day 3 at the latest and that wasn't from lack of materials to build one but because I hadn't settled on a POI to make my base yet. Leather was easy to come by - couches, animal hides, scrapping leather clothes, the leather chairs. The pipes were also plentiful and at most required beating up a couple of toilets if needed. Stone and clay were both easy to get.

Ahh yes, the days when you looked forward to the day 4 dog pack, because you knew (if you lived through it) you were going to build your forge after that.

A16 absolutely, the only delay in me getting a forge was deciding where I wanted to put it.

A17...I don't know who thought they needed iron for day 7 anyway, first horde is cake, even at level 20.

 

[meganoth]

A few points...
1) You are GUARENTEED a Forge at level 20. That's day 5. Which is more or less when you got it on average in A16 depending on your luck with Leather and Short Pipes.

2) Your level 20 is Forge is guarenteed. How is it a challenge? I had 35 Pipes when I hit level 20 last play-through.

3) None of us will ever have to deal with the challenge of facing the first horde with no Iron, since it will never happen again to anyone. Ever.

4) Iron tools are only marginally better than Stone at collecting resources. And given early stamina issues, they are arguable just the same so you don't really need Iron early on. Similarly Wood spikes and the new Wood bars are totally adequate for the first Horde anyway, so again, you really don't need Iron by day 7.

5) Iron Arrows I hear you say? I had 150 of them (from looting) for the first horde and several guns and a ton of ammo, so again....Iron / Forge not needed.

Challenging? Nah, I'll have it at level 20. Guaranteed.

1 and 2. As others said, in A16 you got forge much earlier on average.

4. The difference between stone and iron is considerable as soon as you put a point into mother lode and/or miner69 and use power attack. Which is just sensible to do as soon as one starts to prepare for the first horde night. Still, IMO you are right that you don't need a forge and iron by day 7. Barbed wire, spikes and cobblestone can be built without a forge and that is all you need for day 7.

5, Agreed. Even though a builder type player will not have as much as you.

 

[ktr]

Ahh yes, the days when you looked forward to the day 4 dog pack, because you knew (if you lived through it) you were going to build your forge after that.
A16 absolutely, the only delay in me getting a forge was deciding where I wanted to put it.

A17...I don't know who thought they needed iron for day 7 anyway, first horde is cake, even at level 20.

Wood spikes. If I had to go dog hunting to get a forge, I packed at least 10 wood spikes. At least they weren't quite a deadly then!

My first horde night was pretty intense. I think was around 18-ish. I got good amount of ferals in it and the new pathing was definitely working! Overall, it wasn't too bad though. My base took some damage and I ran out of arrows at one point, but I had a back up pistol to plug the stragglers.

IMO either the stone axe shouldn't be so much worse than the fire axe so that nobody would be "forced" to have a fire axe, but practically un-upgradbale (with perks or mods) so that the switch to fire axe is still a priority.

Or a stone axe should have its own perk tree (with no or very low gates). Don't find an axe, bite the bullet and upgrade the axe. But even the fully upgraded axe would be just on the level of a blank fire axe. Makes a hard choice between useable axe immediately or better perk usage long term

now that I've thought about this a little more, I'm torn on the stone axe having it's own perk line just because the points might feel wasted as soon as you get access to the forge/iron. I wonder if it would work to have the stone axe better tied to Motherload where it's getting a slightly higher increase in gathering than the other tools, but you're still limited to the basic attack? IDK if that'd even be possible.

 

[meganoth]

I didn't forget. And I complained back then as well. Because its stupid.But at least back then it was nothing necessary (like a forge! Or more intentoryspace) and it wasn't level 100, but level 40/60.

But yes. it was way more elegant... even though I still disliked it and I simply abused the traders to get my steelpick level 25 anyways. Also I think it was never that you couldn't craft the things, but that the thing to craft it was locked (crucible and chemstation) you coulod still produce (I think! long time ago) the steel if you found a crucible.

"abuse"? That was a deliberate design by TFP.

I just checked the wiki ( https://7daystodie.gamepedia.com/Steel_Smithing_(Perk) ) , in A16 level 40 for steel was a hard limit, no way around it.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Wood spikes. If I had to go dog hunting to get a forge, I packed at least 10 wood spikes. At least they weren't quite a deadly then!
My first horde night was pretty intense. I think was around 18-ish. I got good amount of ferals in it and the new pathing was definitely working! Overall, it wasn't too bad though. My base took some damage and I ran out of arrows at one point, but I had a back up pistol to plug the stragglers.

now that I've thought about this a little more, I'm torn on the stone axe having it's own perk line just because the points might feel wasted as soon as you get access to the forge/iron. I wonder if it would work to have the stone axe better tied to Motherload where it's getting a slightly higher increase in gathering than the other tools, but you're still limited to the basic attack? IDK if that'd even be possible.

Personnaly I XML out the skills that affect harvest ammount and rebalance tool tiers to only give slightly diffrent ammounts and probably will continue to do so. Never a feature i was a huge fan of.

I actually quite like RPGs and leveling up skills and making choices, its just to me harvesting skills are a pretty ♥♥♥♥ choice, the game is an absolute grind fest if you dont take them. If you do? Gathering resources is ridiculously quick.

- - - Updated - - -

"abuse"? That was a deliberate design by TFP.
I just checked the wiki ( https://7daystodie.gamepedia.com/Steel_Smithing_(Perk) ) , in A16 level 40 for steel was a hard limit, no way around it.

Can mirror the sentiment, people are turning around and going 'so you didnt hate grinding for 10 hours in the previous alpha to get steel, why would you mind it being 30?'

 

[meganoth]

Personnaly I XML out the skills that affect harvest ammount and rebalance tool tiers to only give slightly diffrent ammounts and probably will continue to do so. Never a feature i was a huge fan of. I actually quite like RPGs and leveling up skills and making choices, its just to me harvesting skills are a pretty ♥♥♥♥ choice, the game is an absolute grind fest if you dont take them. If you do? Gathering resources is ridiculously quick.

'

Agree. Tool perks should mainly change stamina use and less the harvest amount/block damage. Means a scavenger could skip them and use coffee or beer for the occasional safe together with a bigger stamina pool through fortitude. A Miner would still take the perk itself as fortitude and sex tyr alone are not enough for uninterrupted mining (after further balancing in A17 that should be the case at least)

 

[Viktoriusiii]

"abuse"? That was a deliberate design by TFP.
I just checked the wiki ( https://7daystodie.gamepedia.com/Steel_Smithing_(Perk) ) , in A16 level 40 for steel was a hard limit, no way around it.

buy steel tools at the trader mate. really not that hard concept to grasp no idea what you are talking about

 

[JCrook1028]

Easy huh? I already had 3 deaths under my belt by the time I found a forge lol. Getting a forge can be challaging. Depends on your luck and skill level. What it really takes is work. Leveling up is work. The game kicks you in the teeth plenty, especially at lower levels.

Maybe you went over this before. But I'll ask here. What are your ideas for "adding more options and expanding gameplay features"?

Yea you had 3 deaths, because you played like it was A16 in your first ever playthrough of A17. I can almost guarantee your next restart you will not have those early deaths.

 

[Krougal]

Wood spikes. If I had to go dog hunting to get a forge, I packed at least 10 wood spikes. At least they weren't quite a deadly then!
My first horde night was pretty intense. I think was around 18-ish. I got good amount of ferals in it and the new pathing was definitely working! Overall, it wasn't too bad though. My base took some damage and I ran out of arrows at one point, but I had a back up pistol to plug the stragglers.

now that I've thought about this a little more, I'm torn on the stone axe having it's own perk line just because the points might feel wasted as soon as you get access to the forge/iron. I wonder if it would work to have the stone axe better tied to Motherload where it's getting a slightly higher increase in gathering than the other tools, but you're still limited to the basic attack? IDK if that'd even be possible.

I don't think I had ferals, but then it can be hard to tell at night anyway. I certainly didn't have any wights.

Stone axe perkline is a terrible idea, just no (yeah, I know it wasn't your idea). Stone axe in A16 was op, because it was so cheap and easy to combine past your "normal" QL for your level. Same for bow and shiv (and constantly having to clean up gore blocks meant blade maxed without even trying). I could go with those 3 for a long time.

Stone axe feels like what it should be now; it's your starter tool and you replace it as soon as you are able. Nobody should be running around with a stone axe late or even mid-game. I wish they'd get rid of the stupid Tazo axe too, "breaks my immersion"

 

[WolfyBlah]

Agree. Tool perks should mainly change stamina use and less the harvest amount/block damage. Means a scavenger could skip them and use coffee or beer for the occasional safe together with a bigger stamina pool through fortitude. A Miner would still take the perk itself as fortitude and sex tyr alone are not enough for uninterrupted mining (after further balancing in A17 that should be the case at least)

Safes are another matter entierly, nothing should be locked with no way to unlock it other than bashing it apart, lock picking is just plain missing and finding keys for things on zombies/nearby the locked thing isnt allowed either apparently.

 

[meganoth]

buy steel tools at the trader mate. really not that hard concept to grasp no idea what you are talking about

Sorry, I'll be more specific:

My "abuse" comment was about your statement that you abused the trader to get a steel axe at lvl 25. And I'm quite sure that it is deliberatly designed that way by TFP and not abuse. Just wanted to mention it, even though it is possible that you just used "abuse" as a joking paraphrase for "buy".

The second comment was a correction to your assumption/guess that you could craft steel before lvl 40 in A16 if you just had a workstation. No, you couldn't.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Sorry, I'll be more specific:
My "abuse" comment was about your statement that you abused the trader to get a steel axe at lvl 25. And I'm quite sure that it is deliberatly designed that way by TFP and not abuse. Just wanted to mention it, even though it is possible that you just used "abuse" as a joking paraphrase for "buy".

The second comment was a correction to your assumption/guess that you could craft steel before lvl 40 in A16 if you just had a workstation. No, you couldn't.

Not saying i agree one way or the other but I can see why he would think of it abuse, to craft the thing requires X hours of farming exp or he can just buy it, might be intended design but it does *feel* like abuse/cheating the system.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Sorry, I'll be more specific:
My "abuse" comment was about your statement that you abused the trader to get a steel axe at lvl 25. And I'm quite sure that it is deliberatly designed that way by TFP and not abuse. Just wanted to mention it, even though it is possible that you just used "abuse" as a joking paraphrase for "buy".

The second comment was a correction to your assumption/guess that you could craft steel before lvl 40 in A16 if you just had a workstation. No, you couldn't.

Traders in A16 were hopelessly broken. I had about 10000 in the first 4-5 days if I REALLY wanted an item they had.

Thats why I meant abuse... they had every item you could want, therefor it lets you skip the levelgate completly.

 

[meganoth]

Not saying i agree one way or the other but I can see why he would think of it abuse, to craft the thing requires X hours of farming exp or he can just buy it, might be intended design but it does *feel* like abuse/cheating the system.

Used that way I would agree. Traders became too important in A16 and are still in A17. I see reasons for this, mainly that non-scavengers need the trader to get stuff they don't get from scavenging, but there really should be limits on what you can get from them. Not the top items in each category at least. Not even with secret stash maxed out.

Judging by what the miners in our group look for that would have been the auger. But the auger should be craftable. Don't remember if it was in A16(?).

Traders in A16 were hopelessly broken. I had about 10000 in the first 4-5 days if I REALLY wanted an item they had. Thats why I meant abuse... they had every item you could want, therefor it lets you skip the levelgate completly.

Agreed. Trader buy to sell ratio could probably have been doubled and they would still have been useful