PC Perks System and Level Gates

[Corbit]

Not a terrible idea. 2 issues.
That was alpha 16. I played alpha 16, for 16 months. I want totally new stuff.

Also the hardcore will still complain. If it doesn't take them a hundred hours to get something then it's too easy.

And lastly one thing i cant say about alpha 17 is it needs more challenge. Its plenty challaging. Dont bother telling me it's not, this is my subjective opinion lol.

So next update you want them to add a new perk system?

I don't think hardcore players are like that, I think hardcore players are the ones that go far far over triple digit days and build huge elaborate bases. They will want stuff asap.

Its really easy to get a forge in a17, like really super easy. You could go out and find one in a house or get level 20 which isn't hard. All I am suggesting is to make it fun and engaging and maybe a little bit challenging.

It boggles my mind why people prefer *ding* spend a point over adding more options and expanding gameplay and features.

 

[KhaineGB]

As for rng. Nothing burns me up more than days and days of hard work searching for an item and not getting it. My time is valuable and i dont appreciate it being wasted.
But people need a reason to go out and loot. So how do we give then that?

Recipes are perks and can be learned via reading a book OR spending points.

Done. You can say to yourself "Right, I'm spending no more than 2 days looking for X. If I don't find it, I'm spending the points."

Players then have 2 days to get what they want, and can be achieving other things (getting XP, looking for other items of interest) while trying to get the book/schematic they want.

 

[Kage848]

Recipes are perks and can be learned via reading a book OR spending points.
Done. You can say to yourself "Right, I'm spending no more than 2 days looking for X. If I don't find it, I'm spending the points."

Players then have 2 days to get what they want, and can be achieving other things (getting XP, looking for other items of interest) while trying to get the book/schematic they want.

Not a bad idea. But then I'll be aganizing over spending the points or not lol. Give me my point back if find the book then. Still gives good reasons to explore.

 

[ktr]

I think the old alpha 16 skill/perk system was really good. Makes way more sense to learn by doing. But I really love the new perk system too.
I'm going to say I think the alpha 17 perk system is better. But ill be honest, it might be just because its new. A breath of fresh air over an old tired skill system I was using for years.

I think we should 100% be able to get all perks, like we can now. That shouldn't change. Limiting perks is a simple slap in the face to the sp gamer. Let's face it, this is already the update that made mp better than sp, let's not go too far with that. #singleplayergamersmatter

I'm ok with level gates. Its eather rng or levels guys. At least with levels I dont get screwed out of stuff because of rng. I work for it, I get it.

As for rng. Nothing burns me up more than days and days of hard work searching for an item and not getting it. My time is valuable and i dont appreciate it being wasted.

But people need a reason to go out and loot. So how do we give then that?

I think they are giving us that, or at least trying with the level gating. If you get lucky and find a working forge in the first few days, you can upgrade your arrows and start making forged iron and brick (all of which are valuable early game), but crafting the iron tools isn't possible until level 20. However, we aren't barred from having them. A trader might have them to buy or earn from quests, or you loot and find them.

We can now get bicycles at level 20 as well, but we still need to find a work bench for assembly - a reason to go out and explore.

The biggest change I think might need to be made is to trader inventories so we aren't totally at the mercy of RNG & level gating. Perhaps there should be a set of tools always in their inventory so that if we are below lvl 20 and RNG really hates us, we still have the guaranteed option to buy. So, now the player again has a choice of opportunity - loot to sell things they don't need to get what they want and/or run trader quests.

Personally, I am finding loot to be more valuable in A17 than in A16 because of the level gating. I can't have iron tools by Day 2 and finding them is a great find whereas in A16, I could already make any tool (except maybe the wrench) long before I found any and any I found were way worse than what I could make. Basically, they were scrap metal and nothing else. I'm finding that to be true of a lot of items that were more or less "Scrap and it go" very early in A16.

 

[Kage848]

So next update you want them to add a new perk system?
I don't think hardcore players are like that, I think hardcore players are the ones that go far far over triple digit days and build huge elaborate bases. They will want stuff asap.

Its really easy to get a forge in a17, like really super easy. You could go out and find one in a house or get level 20 which isn't hard. All I am suggesting is to make it fun and engaging and maybe a little bit challenging.

It boggles my mind why people prefer *ding* spend a point over adding more options and expanding gameplay and features.

Easy huh? I already had 3 deaths under my belt by the time I found a forge lol. Getting a forge can be challaging. Depends on your luck and skill level.

What it really takes is work. Leveling up is work. The game kicks you in the teeth plenty, especially at lower levels.

Maybe you went over this before. But I'll ask here. What are your ideas for "adding more options and expanding gameplay features"?

 

[KhaineGB]

Not a bad idea. But then I'll be aganizing over spending the points or not lol. Give me my point back if find the book then. Still gives good reasons to explore.

Can't easily give points back currently.

However, given how challenge quests have changed, I would make them more common. Timer is gone and you have to go to an area and ACTIVATE it to spawn the zombies that you need for the quest.

2 skill points for completion. I'd consider lowering that to 1 and making them more common to find. At least then, if you find one of those instead of the book, you can go knock out the quest for the skill point to buy the perk.

Again, I feel options should be the go-to, even if players have to work for it.

 

[Kage848]

Can't easily give points back currently.
However, given how challenge quests have changed, I would make them more common. Timer is gone and you have to go to an area and ACTIVATE it to spawn the zombies that you need for the quest.

2 skill points for completion. I'd consider lowering that to 1 and making them more common to find. At least then, if you find one of those instead of the book, you can go knock out the quest for the skill point to buy the perk.

Again, I feel options should be the go-to, even if players have to work for it.

Cant wait. I agree options are best

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Maybe. But like I said before I am really liking the totally new system. Maybe it will get old but for now I'm addicted to it. Might have something to do with my MMO background. Ill grind all day for those sweet perks. Just asking some new perks to the already old system doesn't sound as fun.

yeah uhm...

Its nice that you like it... and happy to see a lot of ppl like it... but its just a bad system.

Because in a survival game you should focus on SURVIVAL not on gathering xp as quickly as possible. That is done in RPGs but there, wandering XP dont just come to you! You have to do quest, be at risk or at least time a good while to do the quest, explore the world and stuff.

Here you just leave on 50 torches and a few forges and campfires, jump a bit, maybe shoot your pistol in the air to overkill and boom 10 more walking xpbundles come along.

Zombies should give 50xdifficulty xp. So a nurse is x1 a normal big guy is x2 a fat guy x5 and a military glowing feral is x50 or more.

But even if they balance it, you are still gated behind stupid unnecessary gates that are purely there to spite you.

At that point its not a "do whatever you can to survive" game. Its a "do what we think you like best, because you have no idea how to have fun!" game. Seriously. Difficulty 6 and I only killed about 100 zombies on day 8. 30 were on hordenight. But if I had killed every zombie i saw I probably could already build my own tools, I could carry 6 more items and I could have way more stamina.

But because I DIDN'T farm zombies all day long and actually played the way I liked it, I still have to run around with a stupid stoneaxe, because my two traders only had a knife.

Its not fun anymore. Its a chore. If they balance xp so that pretty much every playstyle gets the smae amount and get rid of the level gates (*)

If they absolutely need some sort of incentive for the player to not have something immediatly, because they couldn't be asked to balance their perks right, at least level it with attributes. So Packmule 3 needs 5 str, packmule4 needs 7 and 3 agility and packmule 5 needs 9 str, 6 agility and 3 perception.

Now I can still get packmule 5 on level 24 (without the first 5 points from the trader) but I still dont have ANYTHING else but the packmule and the attributes. And if I now want a chemstation I need intelligence and perception...

I have given a lot of different examples like raising skillpoints per level and making some perks worth more then others... but that "didnt feel good to level up because you couldn't spend the points where you wanted"... completely ignoring that the levelgates do the same stick but for longer and without counterplay. So I simply think they just have their vision for their game and go with that, only balancing it slightly.

(*)If they REALLY want level gates in there, put all the super benefits(like jumping one/two blocks higher) on lvl 3&5 on 4&5 and lock 4&5 behind 30 and 50. But this is still levelgating.

 

[Ghostlight]

Also the hardcore will still complain. If it doesn't take them a hundred hours to get something then it's too easy.

I think your take on this is not quite correct. I do not want it to take 100 hours to get a thing, I just want it to be a surprise when I do get it rather than it be 100% pre-ordained because a perk unlocks it at a certain level. I also want some play-throughs where I never get a certain thing, as those are the most memorable and the most different from your other play-throughs. Right now replayability has suffered a LOT I think because we all will get everything in the game at the designated level EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The point of survival games is to explore and make do with whatever you find (or do NOT find!!!).

Haven't found a reliable water source yet? Deal with that challenge!

Haven't found the Shotgun schematic yet? Deal with the challenge of not being able to combine and repair shotguns.

etc etc

All that variety is GONE because I know exactly when I will be able to do anything or craft anything.

And lastly one thing i cant say about alpha 17 is it needs more challenge. Its plenty challaging. Dont bother telling me it's not, this is my subjective opinion lol.

Get to level 100 and tell me that you still think this. I am genuinely curious as I know your playstyle is not to rush levels and not to be a "fighter".

 

[Ghostlight]

To me there is a huge disconnect / immersion breaking in the new perk system too. Not only is it rather poor design that it lets you unlock whatever you want as long as your level is high enough, which is just abysmal design for a survival game where the whole darn point is to go out exploring and make the best of whatever you find, BUT it boils everything down into the fact that earning EXP lets you get better at anything you want. Since you earn EXP most efficiently by killing zombies, you naturally go out to kill zombies in order to get better at <whatever>. Why the hell would anyone enjoy that? Unless they are pure casual and can't be arsed working for things.

I spend 2 days mining rocks, and you spend 2 days killing zombies. I should be the better miner after that!! Whereas whichever of us puts our points into the mining perks will end up the better miner. Ludicrous! I mean you cannot get much blander than that as a progression system.

 

[Kage848]

yeah uhm... Its nice that you like it... and happy to see a lot of ppl like it... but its just a bad system.

Because in a survival game you should focus on SURVIVAL not on gathering xp as quickly as possible. That is done in RPGs but there, wandering XP dont just come to you! You have to do quest, be at risk or at least time a good while to do the quest, explore the world and stuff.

Here you just leave on 50 torches and a few forges and campfires, jump a bit, maybe shoot your pistol in the air to overkill and boom 10 more walking xpbundles come along.

Zombies should give 50xdifficulty xp. So a nurse is x1 a normal big guy is x2 a fat guy x5 and a military glowing feral is x50 or more.

But even if they balance it, you are still gated behind stupid unnecessary gates that are purely there to spite you.

At that point its not a "do whatever you can to survive" game. Its a "do what we think you like best, because you have no idea how to have fun!" game. Seriously. Difficulty 6 and I only killed about 100 zombies on day 8. 30 were on hordenight. But if I had killed every zombie i saw I probably could already build my own tools, I could carry 6 more items and I could have way more stamina.

But because I DIDN'T farm zombies all day long and actually played the way I liked it, I still have to run around with a stupid stoneaxe, because my two traders only had a knife.

Its not fun anymore. Its a chore. If they balance xp so that pretty much every playstyle gets the smae amount and get rid of the level gates (*)

If they absolutely need some sort of incentive for the player to not have something immediatly, because they couldn't be asked to balance their perks right, at least level it with attributes. So Packmule 3 needs 5 str, packmule4 needs 7 and 3 agility and packmule 5 needs 9 str, 6 agility and 3 perception.

Now I can still get packmule 5 on level 24 (without the first 5 points from the trader) but I still dont have ANYTHING else but the packmule and the attributes. And if I now want a chemstation I need intelligence and perception...

I have given a lot of different examples like raising skillpoints per level and making some perks worth more then others... but that "didnt feel good to level up because you couldn't spend the points where you wanted"... completely ignoring that the levelgates do the same stick but for longer and without counterplay. So I simply think they just have their vision for their game and go with that, only balancing it slightly.

(*)If they REALLY want level gates in there, put all the super benefits(like jumping one/two blocks higher) on lvl 3&5 on 4&5 and lock 4&5 behind 30 and 50. But this is still levelgating.

Yea um sorry you dont like it but it's a great system. Guess you just want strait up survival but they are mixing it with RPG.

I get what you like and dont like about the update. You think it's not fun but me and my friends are having a blast, so yea.

 

[Corbit]

Easy huh? I already had 3 deaths under my belt by the time I found a forge lol. Getting a forge can be challaging. Depends on your luck and skill level. What it really takes is work. Leveling up is work. The game kicks you in the teeth plenty, especially at lower levels.

Maybe you went over this before. But I'll ask here. What are your ideas for "adding more options and expanding gameplay features"?

I did go over it a bit in my first post but here are some ideas using forge as an example:

A blacksmith zombie - Hunt them down, fun for people who love killing zombies. Might even have the materials needs on it.

POI related to a forge - Would be harder to get at lower levels but maybe you can come up with a solution to complete the POI early or come back when stronger

Usable forge in a house - By using an existing forge you eventually learn the recipe.

Auto learn at a specific level of a skill you would learn by doing - For example, a crafting skill would unlock the recipe once you hit level 20 in that skill. Great for people who get straight into crafting and building.

Possibly via quests from traders - Maybe you get a forge but not the recipe.

I am sure others could come up with more ways but if you can't find the plan with this many options then something is seriously wrong

There is also the fact this game is highly customizable and so can have settings which make finding certain items easier or harder.

 

[Kage848]

I think your take on this is not quite correct. I do not want it to take 100 hours to get a thing, I just want it to be a surprise when I do get it rather than it be 100% pre-ordained because a perk unlocks it at a certain level. I also want some play-throughs where I never get a certain thing, as those are the most memorable and the most different from your other play-throughs. Right now replayability has suffered a LOT I think because we all will get everything in the game at the designated level EVERY SINGLE TIME.


Get to level 100 and tell me that you still think this. I am genuinely curious as I know your playstyle is not to rush levels and not to be a "fighter".

I bet if you found all the books you wanted by day 21 you would not be happy with a RNG system. Seems to me you want to be held back by not finding stuff. Well that's cook, dont perk into stuff. The difference between what you want, rng and what I want, perks is your way I can be unlucky and forced to play l, what I would consider l, and awful playstyle. But the way it is now you can choose to not take perks.

As far as level 100. I have been a fighter this season. I spent most of my first 14 days fighting and leveling up and it cost me when I didnt have a good horde base on day 14 lol. But I am going to be trying my best to get to at least 80. I want the 5 wheeler b4 stable.

- - - Updated - - -

I did go over it a bit in my first post but here are some ideas using forge as an example:
A blacksmith zombie - Hunt them down, fun for people who love killing zombies. Might even have the materials needs on it.

POI related to a forge - Would be harder to get at lower levels but maybe you can come up with a solution to complete the POI early or come back when stronger

Usable forge in a house - By using an existing forge you eventually learn the recipe.

Auto learn at a specific level of a skill you would learn by doing - For example, a crafting skill would unlock the recipe once you hit level 20 in that skill. Great for people who get straight into crafting and building.

Possibly via quests from traders - Maybe you get a forge but not the recipe.

I am sure others could come up with more ways but if you can't find the plan with this many options then something is seriously wrong

There is also the fact this game is highly customizable and so can have settings which make finding certain items easier or harder.

Some nice ideas there. But I'm confused because you can already find forged out in the world. Sorry, edit. So you want them out in the world but more rare?

 

[Corbit]

I bet if you found all the books you wanted by day 21 you would not be happy with a RNG system. Seems to me you want to be held back by not finding stuff. Well that's cook, dont perk into stuff. The difference between what you want, rng and what I want, perks is your way I can be unlucky and forced to play l, what I would consider l, and awful playstyle. But the way it is now you can choose to not take perks.
As far as level 100. I have been a fighter this season. I spent most of my first 14 days fighting and leveling up and it cost me when I didnt have a good horde base on day 14 lol. But I am going to be trying my best to get to at least 80. I want the 5 wheeler b4 stable.

- - - Updated - - -

Some nice ideas there. But I'm confused because you can already find forged out in the world. Sorry, edit. So you want them out in the world but more rare?

I don't know how common a working forge is at the moment but that is something that can be tweaked. It wouldn't be a case of finding one and you instantly learn how to make it, would require some effort and time using the thing. Even if they are harder to find, you still have the other options.

 

[Kage848]

I don't know how common a working forge is at the moment but that is something that can be tweaked. It wouldn't be a case of finding one and you instantly learn how to make it, would require some effort and time using the thing. Even if they are harder to find, you still have the other options.

Ok I get it. You have to find one and use it in order to make it. You better guarentee there will be a lot of them. Imo the forge is a basic item you should have guaranteed by day 7. But I do love the idea.

 

[Sanepidi]

Gate system force you to have some challenge. You can't push to iron and steel tools till 7th day and it is really good. Instead of doing that you are forced to gain it. It give you more fun if you finde some good tools by exploring, that are not availlable for you yet by crafting

I really enojoy that change. It make's that game harder and i need to chose wisely what i will chose as i advanuce.

I would change only that XP gain. Killing zombie all the time?... If i take mace and go hunt i can kill a dozen ang gather xp quickly, but doing it with gathering. It takes a while.

New perk system is great but need to be tuned, so each player type would be happy.

 

[Ghostlight]

I bet if you found all the books you wanted by day 21 you would not be happy with a RNG system.

Not really. I would simply think that this current play-through sure was quite different from all the others because I got all the books so early. I'd be quite happy in fact, because now I'd get to experience (for the first and probably last time) what a play-through is like where that actually happens!

And additionally this would simply mean the "end-game" hunt for gun parts can begin in earnest, so I'd not be thinking "well now I am maxed, there is no point in exploring any more", as I currently do in A17. I would instead be looking forward to the time, effort, and looting adventures that now lay between me and getting all my Guns up to level 600....

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Yea um sorry you dont like it but it's a great system. Guess you just want strait up survival but they are mixing it with RPG.
I get what you like and dont like about the update. You think it's not fun but me and my friends are having a blast, so yea.

No. No I actually dont

Its just that the system doesnt work in a survival environment.

Levels and xp are a very bland mechanic. It is average. It is the last resort when a dev doesn't know how to balance their game otherwise.

I'm not saying per se that this way is bad (except for levelgating. There is NO GAME I know that has levelgating and is actually a good game. They mostly do it through other measures, like advancing the story or if they have attributes they do it through attributes, like 7d2d does now, just that those attributes aren't tied to level. So you can make a super speedy guy or a super strength machine or a jack of all trades)

but the system doesnt work if you want to have survival. Or at least not in the current iteration.

You know what I actually agree with? Zombies shouldn't be walking farms. They should be a threat. Maybe once we can adjust the overall speed of the zombies, this will change, but right now, zombies on daytime are just xpmachines. Skipping them makes you lose out on everything fun in the lategame, but killing them is just a chore. its never threatening and they just take time to kill.

So its a lose-lose.

I can see why someone who has played x000 hours in A16 likes a change in pace. I like the slower progression as well. But the overall system (right now) is bad. And it will never have the possibilities of the old system.

In league of legends, every champion has a bar on how hard it is to play the champ and how useful he can be when he is played very well.

So difficulty: 2 is often at max a usefulness of 5.

A16 leveling system had a difficulty of balancing of ~7, but the possibilities with it were a clear 10.

A17 leveling system has a difficulty of 2. But it will also never shine as something special and only ever has the chance to be a 5 maybe 6 if they really focus on implementing it right.

I'm sorry, even if A17 in its A17.4 state will be better then A16.4s (I don't really have a doubt that they will get it with some tuning over the next few months), the leveling/perk system has harsh limits, while the other system gave you so many possibilities to advance and to enrich the player experience... they just never bothered to fix it (at least not where players could try it out, probably more in theory in their boardmeetings)

 

[Ghostlight]

Gate system force you to have some challenge. You can't push to iron and steel tools till 7th day and it is really good. Instead of doing that you are forced to gain it. It give you more fun if you finde some good tools by exploring, that are not availlable for you yet by craftingI really enojoy that change.

A few points...

1) You are GUARENTEED a Forge at level 20. That's day 5. Which is more or less when you got it on average in A16 depending on your luck with Leather and Short Pipes.

2) Your level 20 is Forge is guarenteed. How is it a challenge? I had 35 Pipes when I hit level 20 last play-through.

3) None of us will ever have to deal with the challenge of facing the first horde with no Iron, since it will never happen again to anyone. Ever.

4) Iron tools are only marginally better than Stone at collecting resources. And given early stamina issues, they are arguable just the same so you don't really need Iron early on. Similarly Wood spikes and the new Wood bars are totally adequate for the first Horde anyway, so again, you really don't need Iron by day 7.

5) Iron Arrows I hear you say? I had 150 of them (from looting) for the first horde and several guns and a ton of ammo, so again....Iron / Forge not needed.

Challenging? Nah, I'll have it at level 20. Guaranteed.

 

[Kage848]

Not really. I would simply think that this current play-through sure was quite different from all the others because I got all the books so early. I'd be quite happy in fact, because now I'd get to experience (for the first and probably last time) what a play-through is like where that actually happens!
And additionally this would simply mean the "end-game" hunt for gun parts can begin in earnest, so I'd not be thinking "well now I am maxed, there is no point in explored any more", as I do in A17, I would instead be looking forward to the time, effort, and looting adventures that now lay between me and getting all my Guns up to level 600....

See, I think we just want different things. The last thing I wanna hunt for is lame gun parts. Never have done that. In alpha 16 when i was done looting i was done. And i was ok with that. I spend my time grinding and building and I loved it. Will be interesting if that is the same feeling I get in alpha 17.

I get your playstyle and what you want. We just dont want the same things. I would hope you would agree neither of us is right. It's just different playstyles.