PC Perks System and Level Gates

[Lord_Clown1]

But, what can be done is to have what we have now but maybe implement just a couple learn by doing skills... Hm, like mining tools, or gathering tools you could maybe call it. Cause if you add that as the one skill that you level by doing, that could kinda solve the current ♥♥♥♥ty tool damage even with full maxed mods and levels. I think it would actually make the tools as intended at max rank and max perks.

Also, Weapons, at least the guns, would be fun to see some 100 skills going there by using them, cause the individual gun trees for rifles, pistols and such are very weak atm. Having it go up to 40-50% extra entity damage att skill 100 would be a cool edition. Archery aswell. It's not much but would help the balancing a ton imo.

 

[TurtleGains]

Yes it can IF you don't insist that all the experience for the point earned comes from that one activity. As I said in another thread, once you have a point earned just do something related to the activity for a time and then spend the point. It's just a self imposed simulation and even though it feels satisfying to my own sense of immersion I found out that other players just can't stomach role playing such things.
Earn a point

Go trade 10 items

Spend the point on improving trading

Voila...(for me) good enough simulated learning by doing.

1. This only works if xp gain for various activities is more balanced which I understand TFP is working on

2. To each his own - personally I prefer the game reward me appropriately and in a realistic manner than me rewarding myself and achieving that realism myself. I don't for example want to be offered to become a masterchef after spending a whole day looting and trading.

 

[Kubikus]

Yes it can IF you don't insist that all the experience for the point earned comes from that one activity. As I said in another thread, once you have a point earned just do something related to the activity for a time and then spend the point. It's just a self imposed simulation and even though it feels satisfying to my own sense of immersion I found out that other players just can't stomach role playing such things.
Earn a point

Go trade 10 items

Spend the point on improving trading

Voila...(for me) good enough simulated learning by doing.

In pure theory, yes, you are right. For example do I get 6 xp for opening a loot container. The XP I need to level from lvl 3 to 4 is 10k. So I would have to open 1666 lootcontainers to immerse myself in that self imposed simulation.
It does work with killing zombies in the early game. First maybe 10 levels. That's all.

 

[joeevaristo]

Perks:

Because of the way it's worded, I chose A16, but that's not really how I feel about it. I love a lot about the A17 system, but ideally, I'd prefer something in the middle: I liked having skills that improved by doing, but I think there were too many. I'd prefer one of two options:

1. Each base stat is associated with specific actions, and doing those actions levels up those stats, granting the use of perk points. For example, perhaps mining provides 1x points into strength, and .5x points into endurance. Once you hit the appropriate XP threshhold for a perk point, then you spend it on the perks essentially as they are in A17.

2. A few specific actions benefit from use. Mining, crafting, melee, and ranged are things you'd, hopefully, get better at naturally simply by doing. It makes sense that you get some kind of skill boost by regularly using one of these actions. But I'd prefer that everything outside of this subset of skills be based on points--as others mentioned, the idea of being hit while wearing armor improving your armor skill was a bit silly.

I am glad that schematics are gone and are now point based.

Wellness:

I think I like the A17 method better, but I'm not heavily invested in either. While I liked that the A16 method made food important, and rewarded you for eating better foods, I like the simplicity of deciding whether stamina/health is more important now or if something else is. It's a sometimes tough choice, that feels rewarding.

Gates:

I don't like gates in general. As others suggested in different threads, I tend to feel better about gates if they can be overcome by RNG--I get annoyed when I'm restricted from making a vehicle, but if there's a chance I can find a bike in a garage or whatever, then it's more interesting and I'm a bit less frustrated. Even if it ends up taking a while in practice. I feel like the gates get in my way of playing how I want to play, rather than helping me ease my way into the game--it's an obsctale to play rather than an aspect of it.

Caps:

I really hate level caps. I get annoyed when a game tells me I can't have all the skills--if I work at it, it should be mine.

You might want one character to be a great builder and another character to be an expert fighter, but if they're both building the same base and killing the same zombies then that's not going to happen. Instead they're both just going to advance in both skills at the same rate.

Huh? That's not correct. I had an ongoing game with a group of colleagues and friends, and we all played our own niche. In our core group, I was the architect, another was the scavenger/trader, another was a hunter, another the farmer, and another did the ammo crafting and food cooking.

None of them matched my mining or construction skills--because they were in fact not building the same base and killing the same zombies. They were doing the activities in their own niche. So while I dug out the ground and hammered frames, someone else was making sure we had enough food planted to keep us going, and went looking for things like aloe and other such supplies to expand the farm. The person doing the cooking and crafting stayed at that spot--only occasionally helping me dig. The scavenger was almost always in town trying to find an auger and minibike parts until we finished the skeleton of the base; then he'd stop back in to create his living quarters. That theoretical skill matching you mention didn't really happen.

While were at it... the mod recipe system is BS, HATE it! If you find a recipe, you learn it and that's it. From that point on you should "know" how to use it. /end rant

I do find it frustrating when book bonuses are temporary. If you buy a cookbook, it's still there to use dozens or hundreds of times. If you have a schematic for a weapon, why wouldn't you be able to reuse it? Especially if you felt it was useful enough to make once, you wouldn't just throw it away for no reason when your life may depend on it. That's a pet peeve of mine with any game.

 

[Deceptive Pastry]

In previous alphas a dedicated team of players could unlock concrete and even steel on day 1. Just as a reference for how good those designs were.If the game includes learning-by-grinding then there will be players who vastly out-grind any "reasonable" progression.

A point-purchase system will get called everything from cheap to lazy to godknowswhat but umm... it works.

You get to choose which perk you want and which you will forgo. You can't simply be master of macroing everything.

Wait...how the heck was it possible to reach lvl 40 in A16 in one day? If people are getting to 40 in 60 minutes the problem isn't with the system, it's something giving too much XP. There's no way any average player would do that without exploiting something.

 

[25toLife]

I actually really like the revamped skills and feel like they are much more refined than in a16. However, the level caps are rather annoying right now. I feel like they don't need to be removed entirely, but definitely lightened up. I understand why they are there as it would be rather strong to be able to max out several perks by level ~20 (especially since many of the skills have very strong end level effects), which is why I wouldn't mind some level caps. However, I feel as though the experience/points could be reworked to limit progression instead. In a16 high levels of skills cost more points which ultimately meant you could save up and max out skills fairly early on (relatively speaking) or you could spend your points in a roundabout fashion and be moderately good at everything by the same level. I suppose I just feel as though, if there were no level requirements, there aren't many drawbacks to maxing out one attribute at a time; it would happen much quicker and the benefits are much better.

I absolutely love the new wellness system over the old on. In a16 I felt as though no matter how much cornbread I stuffed my face with I never could max out my wellness. In a17, the food, stamina, and health system all feel really good.

As far as level caps are concerned I think it would be better to be allowed to max out all the perks, just make it quite slow towards the end. This way groups of players would be incentivized to specialize, but would not be punished when alone. Of course level caps could also bring in a bit more experimentation into play about different builds and what not, but that usually ends in one "best" build becoming the norm.

All in all, the best part of this game is how flexible and moddable it is and I feel as though that only improved with a17. So, although somethings are easier to change than others, it really isn't too difficult to get the game to play how you want it.

 

[Roland]

I do find it frustrating when book bonuses are temporary. If you buy a cookbook, it's still there to use dozens or hundreds of times. If you have a schematic for a weapon, why wouldn't you be able to reuse it? Especially if you felt it was useful enough to make once, you wouldn't just throw it away for no reason when your life may depend on it. That's a pet peeve of mine with any game.

Lol...somewhere in the multiverse there are folks getting really sick of empty mason jars and mod schematics popping into existence and cluttering up their world....

 

[Maxwar]

I think the learn by doing mechanic was flawed by the fact that you would feel compelled to just craft stone axes and clubs endlessly for hours to power level your tool crafting. This was quite silly and not super fun.

 

[SoberSean]

This poll gives me cause for concern. I truly hate how much time they waste deving new systems when they need to just lock in one system and stick to it. Just add content! We've been going back and forth on systems for 5 years and have no end game and such a small pool of zombies to fight with limited skins, and horrible sounds when that should be the focus! Please for the love of God just make up your mind and stick with a damn rule set so you can start adding content!

It's FINE how it is now, it was FINE how it was in A16. Move forward. I'm level 50 as of last night and I've only really played casually, got all my core perks for my build unlocked and never had a single problem acquiring or attaining anything at all ever for a single minute in my game with the system as it stands as of today. Can't make iron tools? Buy them from the damn trader! What I do have a problem with is fighting the same 10 zombies as I've been fighting all these years, can we just lock something in place instead of backtracking due to forum complaints?

You've already made most of the money you're going to make on this game, it's getting old and long in the tooth lets lock something in, stick to your damn guns, and give us some content and optimizations and final build that modders can get busy adding to, Thank you, love you, love the game but it's a hot mess and polls like this make me increasingly unsure that you guys are actually sure you know what you're doing.

The system as it is is perfectly fine so was the last one. Now let's go.

 

[TurtleGains]

I think the learn by doing mechanic was flawed by the fact that you would feel compelled to just craft stone axes and clubs endlessly for hours to power level your tool crafting. This was quite silly and not super fun.

Except now in A17 you feel compelled to just kill zombies endlessly for hours to power level your tool crafting. I find this super not fun. There are better FPS zombie shooters out there.

If I wanted to power level my tool crafting, I don't see an issue with the game making me craft tools endlessly. That's how you get better at things - by practice. Sure it can be a bit tedious, so why not just adjust the balance, instead of dumbing down the system?

 

[Amotaraso]

I'm very surprised to see so many people voting for "I prefer a high enough cap on levels so that you can max out your character."

Specializing into something just sound so much more appealing to me.

When I start a game with my friends, one of us decides to go all tanky to be in the front, another goes for ranged and maybe some stealth etc. Someone might go melee headshot style with some sneak combo.

The whole idea behind specialize and making a decision for your game makes it interesting

I don't even know how to make a good argument for this, because I'm actually saying I want to be diminished in my game. But maybe this comes down to modding in the end.

Not being able to be the best at everything, is something we appreciate on my server. For sure.

 

[Deceptive Pastry]

I think the learn by doing mechanic was flawed by the fact that you would feel compelled to just craft stone axes and clubs endlessly for hours to power level your tool crafting. This was quite silly and not super fun.

2 easy solutions...either diminishing returns on xp for the same item that refresh over time (ie the next day), or make levels more exponential so eventually you actually have to craft stuff that takes forged iron/steel to level, but give much more xp balanced to level at an even rate.

 

[Roland]

This poll gives me cause for concern. I truly hate how much time they waste deving new systems when they need to just lock in one system and stick to it. Just add content! We've been going back and forth on systems for 5 years and have no end game and such a small pool of zombies to fight with limited skins, and horrible sounds when that should be the focus! Please for the love of God just make up your mind and stick with a damn rule set so you can start adding content!
It's FINE how it is now, it was FINE how it was in A16. Move forward. I'm level 50 as of last night and I've only really played casually, got all my core perks for my build unlocked and never had a single problem acquiring or attaining anything at all ever for a single minute in my game with the system as it stands as of today. Can't make iron tools? Buy them from the damn trader! What I do have a problem with is fighting the same 10 zombies as I've been fighting all these years, can we just lock something in place instead of backtracking due to forum complaints?

You've already made most of the money you're going to make on this game, it's getting old and long in the tooth lets lock something in, stick to your damn guns, and give us some content and optimizations and final build that modders can get busy adding to, Thank you, love you, love the game but it's a hot mess and polls like this make me increasingly unsure that you guys are actually sure you know what you're doing.

The system as it is is perfectly fine so was the last one. Now let's go.

Don't be concerned. This poll is not going to drive development. The only thing that would cause them to overhaul the perk system is if THEY decided it needed to be done. But don't even be concerned by that. This is their final version for this game. They'll polish it and balance it--maybe add to it (Charisma?) and fiddle with the tiers and benefits but we are near the end of the development time for this game. These are final decisions they are making and regardless of how strongly some people may feel about their right to be involved in the decision making process there comes a time when the people who actually are in charge say it's time to stop experimenting and settle on a final design and be done. We are there.

I could probably go into Pimp Dreams and answer almost every thread with "Maybe next game"

 

[joeevaristo]

Lol...somewhere in the multiverse there are folks getting really sick of empty mason jars and mod schematics popping into existence and cluttering up their world....

I believe that world is adjacent to the one where the zombies, and humans, have all been wiped out by the mountain of gun parts that came out of nowhere.

we are near the end of the development time for this game. These are final decisions they are making and regardless of how strongly some people may feel about their right to be involved in the decision making process there comes a time when the people who actually are in charge say it's time to stop experimenting and settle on a final design and be done. We are there.

That's as surprising as it is exciting to hear!

 

[SickPuppy]

For me, a role playing game learning by doing feels way more immersive. A16 I want to specialize in blades, day 1 I'm using bone shivs and progress from there.

I understand ppl will abuse the system but buying perks feels very unsatisfying, I certainly don't feel as connected to my character as A16. As others have suggested diminishing returns could help. Surely the ppl who put in the time/grind to practice a skill shouldn't be frowned upon. Lebron James didn't get good at basketball by killing zombies.

I also greatly miss looting book stores to learn something new, it gave me something to focus on early game.

Now my character feels kinda lost:

- I don't have to learn by doing

- early game I don't have to explore for book stores to learn something new

- I find interesting mods...can't build those for a while yet

- I don't need a farm, quality/nutrition of food is not an issue (no wellness), any food will raise max-stamina

- 1st base in A17 is always in working forge house or near trader, this plus dangerous poi's which we aren't supposed to go near early game means very little options in any new map and feels following a narrow path

- so all focus early game is kill zombies, hit rocks and trees and loot small poi's, the early game has taken a massive hit here and I'm someone who prefers the early game and not being able to max everything and feel overpowered.

One of the main reasons I keep coming back to 7dtd for thousands of hours is starting a fresh RWG map and specializing in a weapon type and seeing how that compared to my other character builds. Maxing everything out...well what's the point of starting another map?

 

[Moldy Bread]

Can you not combine an enhanced option two with option ten?

 

[Jamey]

In contrast to my strong negative reaction to the death penalty, I have to say that I think that the A17 system is better than A16.

My suggestions:

1) Look at XP for things besides killing zombies and selling to traders. It seems like harvesting, crafting, and building should be more productive than now for building up your character.

2) I’d like either lower level gates or no level gate.

3) I’d like no level cap because I’d like to be able to get whatever I want when playing single player.

 

[Tick Turd]

Leveling, in general, should slowly increase your health, stamina, and strength. These should not be “perks.” This is true for most games.

I’m ok with spending points in skill trees to build your character as you see fit. But I also don’t like level gates that don’t make any sense.

Example: I can’t make a forge until level 20. But if I find one on day 1 I suddenly know how to use one? Or the fact that I can craft a forge well before I can figure out how to craft an advanced bandage?

I think TFP are missing out on a golden opportunity with quests. If you simply took the old schematics like “forge ahead” or the crossbow BP and put them as quest rewards, it would make the game much more interesting. Perks should be for skill enhancement, not acquisition in my honest opinion.

So if I did the Forge quest on day 2 to learn how to craft it, and wanted to then use skill points to increase my efficiency/output, that would make much more sense relative to progression and game design.

 

[meganoth]

I’m ok with spending points in skill trees to build your character as you see fit. But I also don’t like level gates that don’t make any sense.

Example: I can’t make a forge until level 20. But if I find one on day 1 I suddenly know how to use one?

I can use a car even though I can't build one.

Or the fact that I can craft a forge well before I can figure out how to craft an advanced bandage?

Well, how do you make an advanced bandage? A bandage that actively heals you instead of just stopping the blood flow? It probably took generations of shamans or quacksalvers to find the right herbs that actually improve healing.

I have not the slightest idea how I would approach that in reality.

I think TFP are missing out on a golden opportunity with quests. If you simply took the old schematics like “forge ahead” or the crossbow BP and put them as quest rewards, it would make the game much more interesting. Perks should be for skill enhancement, not acquisition in my honest opinion.

So if I did the Forge quest on day 2 to learn how to craft it, and wanted to then use skill points to increase my efficiency/output, that would make much more sense relative to progression and game design.

Partly agree. Having more than one way to aquire the stuff in game would be fantastic. The quest shouldn't be automatically available though, otherwise EVERYONE would do this on day 2 and never use any of the other methods. Notice you can normally find working forges very early if you look into the right places, so the perk is there for those with bad luck.

 

[KhaineGB]

I would prefer a hybrid of A16 and A17 to be totally honest, because that's honestly what I thought we were getting when MM talked about attributes in a VERY early A17 video (back when he showed off the new doe/stag models, the new ragdoll physics and driving around one of the sedan cars)

I might be mis-remembering, but I'm sure he said they decided that learning-by-doing wasn't fun because it just meant you had to grind. As such, I do have a suggestion. It should be possible to impliment, I just don't know how difficult it would be to do so.

Put back the 1-100 skills you can learn by doing (maybe skip some of the buggy ones, like athletics that could level from standing still). On level up, grant the player PERK points (which are used to buy attributes and perks) and SKILL points (which are ONLY used for those 1-100 skills).

That way you get a balance between "learn by doing" and you have points you can straight up spend if you want to power level through a particular skill. Those points also won't impact your perk choices, which I believe was a common complaint in A16... you either spent points on skills or points on perks.