PC Original Promises and Plans and the Current State of the Game

[meganoth]

Yes  horror is connected with edgy and controversial. 

Well  even classic like books - Frankenstein was considered as controversial in their period ( i don't want to do lecture about that).

And i could wrote about movies comic but jut focus on game shall we?

Okay so : let's start from older games to newer : Resident evil was censured because was too much controversial in some countries. F.E.A.R - unethical experiments of children, nude  adult Alma + gore, Outlast 1+2 - gore and hm.... some "reference" ( you can find about controversial connected with 2), Fatal frame?  Gore, suicide, character design, torturings and stuff. Silent hill - well just everything you want ( as example famous piramidhead and mannequin scene),  The evil within - gore and some topic. Fnaf, Poppy playtime - i thing is know good enough to not have to explain, little nighmare - how to descibte to avoid spoilers. Pathologic 2... a lot of  controvesial trops.  Limbo - kid surffer in deppresing timeloop. The forest - canibalism, gore, experiments, types of enemies, "choice".

So as you see - edgy and controversial topic is part of  horror, there in such things in 7DTD

You try again to prove stuff by just listing a few examples.

But I can list controversial stuff that is NOT horror: Nudity in games or movies, women as lead figures in action movies before the 90ties(?), nazi symbols in german movies. And I can list horror that is NOT controversial: Many ghost stories.

And by that I'm showing that controversial is neither required nor indication of horror.

Though if we just talk about indications often found in horror, then you are correct. But it isn't a neccessary ingredient at all.

(I'm sure I could do the same with edgy, but this word has so many meanings that we first would have to define it)

 

[Matt115]

You try again to prove stuff by just listing a few examples.

But I can list controversial stuff that is NOT horror: Nudity in games or movies, women as lead figures in action movies before the 90ties(?), nazi symbols in german movies. And I can list horror that is NOT controversial: Many ghost stories.

And by that I'm showing that controversial is neither required nor indication of horror.

Though if we just talk about indications often found in horror, then you are correct. But it isn't a neccessary ingredient at all.

(I'm sure I could do the same with edgy, but this word has so many meanings that we first would have to define it)

About woman in Action Movies -  well it was  controversial in this period. Now RE 1 from 1996 would looks like first game of student not horror game. About ghost stories... uh this is complicated here - some of them yes some of them are parody of horror , while sometimes.... don't have to be horror so this a diffrence - for example Ring or Curse i'm not remeber which one have a book but are both pretty egdy and controversial ( for this period), parody of horror -"upiór w ruderze" ( there is not english transation of this book). Non horror ghost story you could find as kids/teens books or hm... way of writing diary (ghosts talking about their past in cementary - i don't remember name of this books but i know that books get movie version too). So yes controversial stuff can be everywhere but  it's typical trope in horror.

This hard to define what mean edgy : Let's take F.e.a.r as example - this horror FPS about girl killed by his father during experiment to create super soldiers - some scenes can be pretty edge - one of the brothers killed in very brutal way soldiers during time vision, Alma (ghost girl) killing soldier in very brutal way, visions of past, lore. In outcast 2.... well this game is edgy soo much - you can check gameplay or wiki if you want. Fnaf - well you have to defence against ghost of killed kids  well this same thing in poppy playtime ( diffrence is that in Fnaf there is a killer while in poppy kids became monster after ressurection experiment), Sillent hill - to not spoling too much - background of our character can be rly edgy and you can find "sign" of this for example - piramidhead maneque scene. Clock tower - for example two of ghost are people who were killed by put in acid barrel ( you see this scene as vision), Days gone - suiciders in universcity , freaks group, zombie kids.  NZA - a lot of gore corpses, pentagrams everywhere but not in "parody style" but in "serious" style ( at least in 1&2). Cry of fear - mental issues, drugs addict, social pathology, enemy design and symbolism ( i know i wrote very general but hm... you can check on wiki ). A plague tale - rat eating people alive, battlefield ( yes it's realistic but hm... it can looks edgy  you compire to  for example cod)

So this is just example what mean edgy but it's hard to define because line between edgy and not edgy can be fluid -  you can make burning someone  on stake alive scene very edgy or very save

 

[Riamus]

I think we're are using different definitions if edgy.  It sounds like you're using the definition meaning tense, while I'm using it as being basically at the front of change it new ideas.  The way I was meaning it, death, blood, gore, murder, suicide are so common as to not be edgy.  Now that I see how you mean the word, yes, most horror would be edgy.

In terms of controversial, I suppose that can often be true as so many people consider horror aspects controversial.  After all, one of the more censored/banned books in the US was written for kids... Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.  I read it as a kid around 11 or so and I loved the book. 

 

[Matt115]

I think we're are using different definitions if edgy.  It sounds like you're using the definition meaning tense, while I'm using it as being basically at the front of change it new ideas.  The way I was meaning it, death, blood, gore, murder, suicide are so common as to not be edgy.  Now that I see how you mean the word, yes, most horror would be edgy.

In terms of controversial, I suppose that can often be true as so many people consider horror aspects controversial.  After all, one of the more censored/banned books in the US was written for kids... Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.  I read it as a kid around 11 or so and I loved the book. 

Well depends - let's take burning on stake scene from Witcher 3 and from wicked witch ( new indie fps) . In witcher 3 or the little hope is much more "mild" that in wicked witch

 

[DanLW]

Yes, the game has horror elements IMO.  Sure, it it isn't hard-core, but it is definitely there, so I would say that the "horror" of "survival horror" is fulfilled.

I think there could be things done that wouldn't require big code overhauls to make the game a bit more scary. 

1.  Have LESS zombies in POIs.  For example, if perhaps 1 in 10 POIs had a single strong zombie, that might actually be more scary.  Right now the norm is go into a POI, expect zombies, clear zombies, loot.  It is expected and therefore not scary.  If empty POIs were the norm, then it would be more unexpected (and therefore scarier) when that one zombie bursts out, especially if POI zombies are buffed to be strong hard-hitting zeds. ... I should try this... I suppose the XML could be edited to achieve just this.  Drastically reduce POI zombie spawn percentage, but make the zombies that do spawn a high gamestage.  This could go well with Roland's 0XP mod, since killing zeds is the main source of XP.

2.  More random creepy ambience sounds.  Especially at night.  Rustling sounds that could be mistaken for footsteps.  Distant screams.  Even odd or out of place sounds like a distant cough, sneeze or bike horn.

3.  The zombie bear should do a lot more block damage.  It is too easy to kill through the wall.  These things should one-shot doors and wood blocks and knock down cobble in a few shots.  Concrete and steel should be the only things that slow them down.

4.  Ok, this would require some code, but a hidden sanity attribute that works based off a calculation of hunger, thirst, infection level, injury level, intoxication, and time of day.  Causes zombie growls to occasionally play even though no zombie is there.  (The music system is there... just mod a version of it to play sounds) Quick moving shadows with nothing there.  Could also spawn instant zombie horde that takes no damage and despawns the instant one hits.  (The horde should sometimes be real, or easily mistakable for a POI horde to keep us on our toes)

 

[Jost Amman]

4.  Ok, this would require some code, but a hidden sanity attribute that works based off a calculation of hunger, thirst, infection level, injury level, intoxication, and time of day.  Causes zombie growls to occasionally play even though no zombie is there.  (The music system is there... just mod a version of it to play sounds) Quick moving shadows with nothing there.  Could also spawn instant zombie horde that takes no damage and despawns the instant one hits.  (The horde should sometimes be real, or easily mistakable for a POI horde to keep us on our toes)

+1 

 

[Roland]

We've discussed sanity in the past and just like spoilage it seems to divide the community pretty evenly into haters and lovers of the feature. I'd be for both features as the more things to manage is awesome in my book but there seem to be plenty who just look at sanity and spoilage as just more unfun grindy mechanics.

Sanity, wellness, food spoilage, degrading tools and weapons, withering crops-- bring it all on, uh, modders...

 

[Old Crow]

Claim 13 - well.. screamer and demolishion zombie are some type of bosses.

I wouldn't consider either to be boss zombies at all, especially since you can have multiple show up at once and they go down fairly easily. There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be. Would be nice if there were, but the one boss zombie, the Behemoth, was abandoned for reasons unknown to me.

 

[meganoth]

I wouldn't consider either to be boss zombies at all, especially since you can have multiple show up at once and they go down fairly easily. There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be. Would be nice if there were, but the one boss zombie, the Behemoth, was abandoned for reasons unknown to me.

"go down fairly easily" is relative to the abilities of a player. Vanilla is supposed to be the intro-game for new players and they will surely often get their bases destroyed by demos.

How do you know the behemoth would have more HP and armor than the demo? Do you know more than me (which is entirely possible, I could be unaware or forgetting ideas madmole was posting a long time ago) ? Or are you just projecting your own idea of what the behemoth would be into the discussion?

Case in point, the behemoths modders have re-enabled seem to me often to be at about the same level as the demo.

If you want to know the reason the behemoth was abandoned, just ask. Someone would have told you that it was because of clipping/movement problems TFP did not want to accept.

 

[Jost Amman]

There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be.

Well... excluding Grace.  

 

[Matt115]

I wouldn't consider either to be boss zombies at all, especially since you can have multiple show up at once and they go down fairly easily. There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be. Would be nice if there were, but the one boss zombie, the Behemoth, was abandoned for reasons unknown to me.

In many games you can fight with this same time with bosses even in this same time. Reasons were simple - AI and animations system

 

[DanLW]

We've discussed sanity in the past and just like spoilage it seems to divide the community pretty evenly into haters and lovers of the feature. I'd be for both features as the more things to manage is awesome in my book but there seem to be plenty who just look at sanity and spoilage as just more unfun grindy mechanics.

Sanity, wellness, food spoilage, degrading tools and weapons, withering crops-- bring it all on, uh, modders...

Yes, can't wait for the more in-depth mods brought on by modders who can put more time into the mod because they don't have to worry about it getting broke by the next alpha!

My idea of sanity would be it is not a meter to manage.  It is just a product of slowly going into panic and desperation as hunger and thirst increases, even more so if injured.  Basically a psychological pressure that doesn't affect gameplay.  Hmmm... maybe I should try my hand at SDX Harmony  modding.  I see sound replacement mods, but I wonder if it is possible to get sounds to play randomly based off a computation of hunger/thirst/injury status... time to ask questions in the modding forum!

 

[McCog]

Are NPCs a plan? I mean legitimate NPCs not human shaped vending machines.

 

[Roland]

Are NPCs a plan? I mean legitimate NPCs not human shaped vending machines.

This game is not a dedicated fully featured RPG. It has RPG elements. Therefore, your expectations on exactly how sophisticated NPCs will be should be measured. There is supposed to eventually be a reputation system which seems to indicate that some bandits will be hostile and others friendly depending on the reputation we have earned with their faction. Does this mean we can take them as followers and they will live in our base and be able to do tasks? I wouldn't count on that. Does that mean they might give us a quest or trade with us? Possibly. Will we have long conversation trees with them and learn their backstories? I doubt it.

I think it will probably simply be that if you go into a bandit occupied POI and your rep is hostile with them it will be a shoot out but if your rep is friendly with them you can move within the POI and not be attacked and they ignore you. Could you upgrade that POI and fortify it and then fight a bloodmoon with all those friendly bandits by your side? Maybe. It will all depend on how much time the devs have.

Of course they have to get bandits in the game in the first place and at first the bandits will always be hostile. Reputation and rules governing how they behave in your proximity when friendly will come later but I wouldn't expect things like conversation trees and commands and attracting characters to create a settlement. If those things are your base level definition of the game having a legitimate NPC then its possible the game won't ever have legitimate NPCs by your standards. I don't know your standards so I don't really mean YOU, I mean somebody.

 

[Old Crow]

"go down fairly easily" is relative to the abilities of a player. Vanilla is supposed to be the intro-game for new players and they will surely often get their bases destroyed by demos.

How do you know the behemoth would have more HP and armor than the demo? Do you know more than me (which is entirely possible, I could be unaware or forgetting ideas madmole was posting a long time ago) ? Or are you just projecting your own idea of what the behemoth would be into the discussion?

Case in point, the behemoths modders have re-enabled seem to me often to be at about the same level as the demo.

If you want to know the reason the behemoth was abandoned, just ask. Someone would have told you that it was because of clipping/movement problems TFP did not want to accept.

Well, to fix my earlier statement, Screamers go down fairly easily. A couple of bullets or a well-placed bap with a club will take down a screamer immediately. Demolishers.. not so much.

As for the Behemoth, I was incorrectly assuming it had much more HP than a Demolisher. If clipping was an issue, could they not have worked on the issues to fix it? Even if they had to set it aside for a while. It's not as if we don't already have clipping issues with existing zombies.

 

[meganoth]

Well, to fix my earlier statement, Screamers go down fairly easily. A couple of bullets or a well-placed bap with a club will take down a screamer immediately. Demolishers.. not so much.

As for the Behemoth, I was incorrectly assuming it had much more HP than a Demolisher. If clipping was an issue, could they not have worked on the issues to fix it? Even if they had to set it aside for a while. It's not as if we don't already have clipping issues with existing zombies.

Possibly. But was the behemoth more important than the time to fix the issues? What new gameplay would it have brought that wasn't possible with a zombie with a smaller frame?

 

[Matt115]

Possibly. But was the behemoth more important than the time to fix the issues? What new gameplay would it have brought that wasn't possible with a zombie with a smaller frame?

I know that you ask him but... behemot could be  just bulletsponge with big anti block AOE. this would be mean that during Late stage players would have to create many wall because demolisher could make holes very fast and spend time on repairing them.  And why big would be better that for example demolisher - well it would be just lord of the rings troll while demolisher is just .... zombie with C4 so don't looks too much powerful. Not only gameplay is important but design too - kill just guy with c4 - Ok i'm going to sleep. Kill big mountain of muscles and skin armor? that's something

 

[Jost Amman]

I know that you ask him but... behemot could be  just bulletsponge with big anti block AOE. this would be mean that during Late stage players would have to create many wall because demolisher could make holes very fast and spend time on repairing them.  And why big would be better that for example demolisher - well it would be just lord of the rings troll while demolisher is just .... zombie with C4 so don't looks too much powerful. Not only gameplay is important but design too - kill just guy with c4 - Ok i'm going to sleep. Kill big mountain of muscles and skin armor? that's something

From what I remember, the issue with the Behemot wasn't clipping, it was path finding.

It's already very complicated to do the path finding for two-blocks-high entities, it would have been a nightmare for an entity that is probably 2x2x3 blocks!

 

[Roland]

The behemoth was as tall as a two story building. So more like 2x4x8 and it was the pathing issue and the final decision that such a creature didn't really fit the theme. Its arm was the size of a regular entity.

 

[Matt115]

 final decision that such a creature didn't really fit the theme. 

While i agree about path finding that...  their artistic vision is so  inconsisten. So screamer should using something like old model not have teeth like shark or spider zombie should be just normal zombie not human spider hybride like KF