PC Open Letter to TFP's...

[Damocles]

Rise to Ruins suffers from the same issue where the devs tried their best to make the tower defense aspect as hard as possible, first a pathing change, then more mobs and now we are at a point there where its almost impossible to survive without maximum cheese.

Thats exactly the reason to make the AI smarter AND less predictable, so it cannot be cheezed by simple pathfinding breaking shapes or non-accessible vantage points.

Only when defending goes back requiering reasonable builds and active weapon use, without (low resource investment) cheezing, then the enemies attack strength can be properly balanced to the efforts invested by players.

If a cheeze strategy is possible, the game will be balanced to have crudely stronger enemies, fantasy abilities or weaker blocks to offset this. And thats not a good end-result as it ultimately forces players to cheeze.

 

[Nfg]

My current base is for example a hatch base.

I don't see a hatch base as a cheese base, but yes it uses more resources then my 7x7 base. I build the walls two thick and 4 high until I get cops/demos then I add a second layer 6-7 high. I generally have it up to mostly concrete by day 14 just by looting stuff from POIs. Then I generally spend one day mining and can get at least the lower two layers to steal by day 21. I generally don't spend enough time grinding to have the whole base done. The trick is to set it up for molys and grenades to avoid the brass grind. Then just slowly fill in the base with steal after you get your first demo. Add in a roof of spikes for the birds and maybe spikes trenches if don't mind the xp loss. A cement floor two deep is also helpful when you start getting a bunch of demos, but I normally have an auger by then so that only takes a few minutes. I also tend to dent the center in so it's "closer" to me. Then just throw stuff at them all night. You can easily add a dart trap shooting down or make it a 9x9 and add dart traps shooting out from the center too. Then just use guns to help with cops, birds, and boardem.

 

[RipClaw]

I don't see a hatch base as a cheese base, but yes it uses more resources then my 7x7 base.

I wanted to bring the hatch base more as an example of a non-cheese base that has a low resource consumption in operation but uses more resources for construction than many cheese base users seem to want to invest. 

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Part of the fun part of this game is learning how to build an effective base, which doesn't require much upkeep or cheese. I can have a mostly OP base by day 14 and maybe only replace one or two blocks on any given hoard night, and I generally have all my repairs done before 6am. I might have to do more if I have multiple explosions, but that is not too difficult to avoid either and is never anywhere near destroying my base.

The problem is people think they need to cheese the AI to have an effective base. 

would you share some screenshots please?

 

[Ralathar44]

Whoa, now that's a nice idea. Sounds balanced even. I just got done dialing the birds back in my game now too, so I wont have to rage here. And I think it's fair. limit of 5 max, made it so they can't just stone stop the 4x4 or motorcycle, and they are just barely slower than those two at top speed. so if you slow down at all, or turn around, or have to make a sharp turn, they are right on you. Since you cant go at full speed all the time unless you are on a main road, that's as good a compromise as I am looking for. (or am able to edit at my skill level which is none). Also since the bicycle and minibike are much slower, but also much earlier game, shouldn't be a balance problem, since you wont be fighting a horde that you would have to bail out on (i would hope) and if you try it, you are still going to get rekt.

I never was looking to just run around all night anyway. Just want a plan B so I can regroup if needed before I rejoin the fight.

I actually disagree completely.  Since gas is effectively infinite, you + vehicles take very minimal damage from birds, you can get out and easily kill them all quickly,  and you can just stay on roads and never mess up......that's not balanced at all.

If you wanted actual balanced vehicle escapes on a horde night then you'd need gas to be a limited and valuable commodity so that making the choice to drive for 8 hours was a significant decision rather than one not only entailing almost no risk but cheaper resource wise and always far lesser risk than staying and defending.  Anything that says "so long as I don't mess up it's a win/win and not messing up is easy" will not be balanced.

Alternatively, if you bail on a vehicle the zombies go into "destroy mode" at your base for a set amount of time. I'd say enough to cause significant damage but not enough to raze a base completely unless it collapses.  If you're willing to sacrifice the POI/base to get a safe night then that's fair.  But the problem is the ability to reliably sacrifice a trivial amount of resources to make everything safe and avoid spending alot more resources.

 

[RipClaw]

I actually disagree completely.  Since gas is effectively infinite, you + vehicles take very minimal damage from birds, you can get out and easily kill them all quickly,  and you can just stay on roads and never mess up......that's not balanced at all.

You're forgetting something. While you are busy killing the birds and maybe even repairing the vehicle, the rest of the Horde is catching up. And with the damage system that's supposed to come in A20, you might even end up with your vehicle not working anymore.

Currently it is safer to bail on foot than with the a vehicle. I've tested it. You can escape comfortably on foot unless you have the zombies on nightmare speed. All you need is a college jacket, some high performance running shoes and a stack of coffee on your belt. And if you have "Rule 1: Cardio" at maximum, you won't even need the coffee.

 

[meganoth]

Dunno how to split quotes like you did, have to do it all in one like this

> The game is constantly balanced.

Sure, and that's a good thing. Me personally, I saw the number of zombies roaming around in cities reduced drastically from, I think A15? Back when you still can craft fridges, I don't remember the specific number. I'd prefer that it's sprinting zombies that pick me up but that's small details

> What is so bad about cheesy bases

I didn't say they're bad. I'm saying their existence basically makes the whole zombie AI invalid, and pursuing the dream of people getting swarmed to death by zombies in Blood Moon isn't going to bear fruit. A lot of effort goes to making sure that *this time* the AI won't be fooled, and as of A19 B163, that dream was quashed yet again. As the game progresses, the AI doesn't change their behavior. You get special zombies mixed in sure, but you're still using the same base you used to fend off Day 7 horde, just with concrete and a lot of turrets this time

> cheesy escape vehicle

and here's the thing: despite there being cheesy escape vehicles in the previous versions, you basically don't see YouTubers recommending that. It's not fun to not shoot zombies in your base when the entire point of the game is to, you know, shoot zombies in your base. People don't go around the forums saying "devs hate me! easily clear blood moon with this one weird trick!". Escape vehicles are emergencies, you use them when you can't hold the zombies off anymore. As far as death goes, taking into account your statement that it's "objectively harmless", then what's the problem with escaping such that rocket vultures are needed?

Even looking at the guy who started this, he fought off blood moon as long as he could, only going for the car when he screwed up. As far as I can see, from YouTube to discord convos, people generally play like that, and don't find out about the rocket vultures.

> If players are averse to change

This is a weird stance. People offer feedback because not even a giant megacorporation is an omnipotent being capable of understanding exactly what is objectively the best. Sure you say "our game our rules", then why even bother with discussions in the first place?

Most importantly, laser focusing on "vulture missiles" is a red herring. Vulture missile shows the direction the game is moving, and me, OP, and the guy he quoted dislikes the direction more than the vulture missile itself.

Frankly, we write a lengthy post elaborating on our points instead of simply typing VULTURE MISSILE REEEEE NO BUY because we like the game and want it to improve. What is good being subjective is implied

> So horde base building is generally not that hard, right?

This is exactly it! Building a base is easy! The fact that we have to hop onto our vehicle means something has gone horribly wrong, thus the need to escape.

> Isn't that what we want?

Is that? Because almost every patch I see patch notes describing fixes to some tactics. A19 I believe removes the steep pyramid design

For what it's worth, it feels less of "there are a lot of successful base designs" and more of "there are a lot of successful base designs that get our approval"

This relates to the actual point: the focus on the 7th day horde takes away from the other 6 days. I don't mind a big boss battle every week, but I don't think it should make the other 6 days bland

So is the argument "it's good because it matches the title" or "matching gameplay to title is good"?

Because I'm saying neither is good. Not for the current state of development

Take for example, the 7th day itself. Aside from the red color tint, there's not much happening throughout the day until precisely 22:00 when the horde comes out, the mechanic that is supposed to kill you. I would say it'd have been much more exciting if, say, throughout the day the number of zombies that spawn outdoors increases progressively to signify that yes, today is indeed very dangerous, and the hunt is nigh

The focus on the horde to kill you takes away from the other parts of the game. Of course, I'm not saying that they're not working on other parts of the game, but instead of improving the zombies' AI for the blood moon horde, I'd say that improving on other AIs such as other NPCs (like the bandits they're developing) will yield better results.

There is a simple rule in game design: The player needs to invest reasonable effort or take on dangerous situations to succeed, usually the more effort or danger the better the result. If you don't accept that rule aka axiom as true, we don't need to continue talking because you go against the combined wisdom of all game designers. 

From that rule follows that the pyramid design where the zombies just try to climb but never do the slightest damage is a pure exploit. Complaining that TFP is removing a valid base design with this is turning a blind eye to the fact that this is NOT and was never a valid base design unless the zombies have a chance to damage or climb the pyramid.

As soon as the zombies can do damge to the pyramid it is a valid base design, because it doesn't anymore violate the rule.

Most often when there is a change like that one with the pyramid, users seem to say something like "they took away ...", like it is something they owned or had a claim on. Fact is: The pyramid is still a design you can use, it isn't gone. But it is not anymore providing total invulnerability, it provides safety like every other wall, it is balanced.

If you need the OP cheesy pyramid design to survive then the game isn't easy for you, only the current incomplete, unbalanced game provides loopholes you can still use. Tell the developers the game is too hard for you, but don' tell them to keep a game filled with god mode devices to make it playable for you.

The game is also designed for you to die sometimes (I assume. Even most veteran players die from time to time). That is why the game has a death penalty that isn't severe. It still is a penalty for dying so dying doesn't just become a valid method to teleport or remove conditions like a broken leg (many players used it that way in alpha15 and 16). And it tells you you made a mistake. So yes, there is a difference between driving away in complete safety and dying, even if the penalty is harmless: The former simply removes any fear, apprehension, tension, pressure you might have and that is not good for a zombie horror survival game. Success can only elate you when failure is a possibility. 

Is a sports game still thrilling and suspenseful when you already know the result? Often it is still interesting to watch for the technical finesse of the players, but the thrill is gone because the suspense, the chance that your team might fail, is missing. A horror survival game also needs you to fear for your life.  You are free to mod the game into safe territory if the suspense is "killing you" (pun intended) but default vanilla game needs and wants that suspense

 

[Boidster]

Sounds like fun actually to try to escape. ... it might become a thing to experience as an alternative way to play. Might even be worth a new Steam achievement to survive an entire BM on a vehicle.

In another thread I built a 'racetrack' horde night base to see if I could survive on a motorcycle. I could, and it was a lot of fun. This is without nerfing the birds at all (tho I do think they need some balance adjustments). Difficulty: requires several SMG or shotgun turrets, which don't exactly grow on trees. I also didn't test whether the 'base' could scale to the later hordes with tons of radiated and demolishers. But as a proof-of-concept it seemed doable and an interesting challenge. Not recommended for dead-is-dead players!

 

[meganoth]

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

 

[Laz Man]

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

If that is the case...this is yet another reason not to overreact to what's in people's videos until it is experienced directly...

...its like this whole thread of discussion would have not been needed because the number of vultures would have been at a level acceptable to the OP....

Edit: altho I do recall OP stating he plays 32/64 max zeds....which is ironic given one of the major gripes is too many vultures....

 

[Dracula]

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

The problem with this is that if you kill the 4 birds, 4 more take their place, and the cycle repeats.  On a base horde situation, I had 12 birds in a single horde night and a similar number of dogs.

 

[Ralathar44]

You're forgetting something. While you are busy killing the birds and maybe even repairing the vehicle, the rest of the Horde is catching up. And with the damage system that's supposed to come in A20, you might even end up with your vehicle not working anymore.

Currently it is safer to bail on foot than with the a vehicle. I've tested it. You can escape comfortably on foot unless you have the zombies on nightmare speed. All you need is a college jacket, some high performance running shoes and a stack of coffee on your belt. And if you have "Rule 1: Cardio" at maximum, you won't even need the coffee.

The damage system that might exist in A20 is irrelevant since it's not in.  The context I made my reply in is someone else tweaking the birds so there would be less of them and that they were slightly slower than the motorcycle so that if you stayed on roads you'd outrun them.  And considering how long it took the birds in Vedui's video to kill him with a huge pack of them (and the fact they only really did damage because the pack was large enough to stop him so their attacks would hit) changes like those I quoted before essentially means a completely safe horde night.

And yes, you can bail on foot wearing specific gear made for running and light armor and chugging stamina drinks or maxing out specific skills.  Good luck doing that with most players though.  And it's still more dangerous than doing it with a vehicle with the mentioned changes I was replying to.  You can fall and die or sprain/break a leg, run into POIs and world spawns, hit land mines, hit cactuses, accidentally corner yourself with water, etc.

 

[meganoth]

The problem with this is that if you kill the 4 birds, 4 more take their place, and the cycle repeats.  On a base horde situation, I had 12 birds in a single horde night and a similar number of dogs.

The difference is that in the video Vedui had no problem driving around with 4 birds on his neck, sure he got slowed by them and it looked like all hell broke loose. But the 4 birds seemed relatively harmless and he had constant HPs. He only got into trouble when 7 or 8(?) were behind him.

 

[Boidster]

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

So I just tested this, I think. Game set to 8 blood moon enemies, and started the horde while sitting on a motorcycle. I actually got 5 vultures at first, maybe because the normal horde wave includes 1 vulture and the game added 4 more as a vehicle penalty? Here's how the testing went:

• Start: 5 vultures, 3 zombies (on motorcycle)
  
• Kill 1 vulture, remain on foot, game adds a zombie: 4 vultures 4 zombies
  
• Kill all vultures, game fills in with zombies: 8 zombies
  
• Jump on motorcycle, no vultures are added: 8 zombies, on motorcycle, able to completely avoid the horde
  
• Use 'killall' command while on motorcycle, game adds 3 zombies and 5 vultures
  

So it looks like you can get up to 5 vultures when horde size is set to 8, but possibly that's a gamestage-related quirk with one natural vulture and 4 penalty vultures.

 

[Dracula]

How are they lessening the number of vultures?  This would help me immensely.

 

[RipClaw]

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

I did a quick test and had 5 vultures on my heels when played with 8 zombies concurrent. Despite steel armor and maximum points in Pain Tolerance, I suffered almost every critical damage that exists in the game. As I have already written in another post. It's safer to try to avoid the horde on foot.

f that is the case...this is yet another reason not to overreact to what's in people's videos until it is experienced directly...

It didn't help that Roland wrote that he showed the video to Madmole and that Madmole then said "Works as intended".

 

[Laz Man]

I did a quick test and had 5 vultures on my heels when played with 8 zombies concurrent. Despite steel armor and maximum points in Pain Tolerance, I suffered almost every critical damage that exists in the game. As I have already written in another post. It's safer to try to avoid the horde on foot.

It didn't help that Roland wrote that he showed the video to Madmole and that Madmole then said "Works as intended".

hahaha...right.  Talk about throwing gas on a fire...

 

[meganoth]

How are they lessening the number of vultures?  This would help me immensely.

You mean the 5 vultures+3 zombies Boidster saw? Essentially that would be the default game. If you are playing single-player and haven't changed the settings yourself you should be getting similar results.

If you log into an open server or a server a friend provides this server owner might have changed a lot of settings (including max zombies on horde night per person) and you can't change them.

 

[Dracula]

You mean the 5 vultures+3 zombies Boidster saw? Essentially that would be the default game. If you are playing single-player and haven't changed them yourself you should be getting similar results.

If you log into an open server or a server a friend provides this server owner might have changed a lot of settings (including max zombies on horde night per person) and you can't change them.

I thought there may have been a tweak that could have been made to the game files; alas, no such luck.

 

[meganoth]

I thought there may have been a tweak that could have been made to the game files; alas, no such luck.

Depends on what you want exactly. Lots of stuff is possible by simply editing some xml. From another post you made I thought you already had slowed down the vultures. Or was that somebody else? How about slowing them down even further?