PC Open Letter to TFP's...

[Roland]

"what aboutism"

AKA innovating, brain storming, adapting, trying new things, experimenting, doing science, having fun.

Wherever there are people "what abouting" there will be others giving up and proclaiming there is nothing to be done and pooh poohing people who want to try. Who would knowingly desire to be one of those types of people? Always strive to be a "what abouter"!

 

[Laz Man]

I seem to recall you despairing for the future of the game years ago too. Huh.  Keep at it. 

Well his name is "sadpickle" not "happypickle" or "optimisticpickle" lol....

 

[Roland]

That's why I recall. I remember how aptly they named themselves.

 

[Onarr]

But do it in a legit and fair way.


Even (and especially) little children know when something is fair or not.

Yeah but those same children will be screaming NO FAIR as soon as they lose (even fairly), or you take their toy away (also fairly). Kinda reminds me of something. Just saying.

 

[sadpickle]

I seem to recall you despairing for the future of the game years ago too. Huh.  Keep at it. 

You are a garbage @%$*#! mod Roland.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I love it. Those vultures are as supernatural as the blood moon itself.

I'm trying really hard to look at things from the perspective of the OP, but I just can't. This is likely to be because I have requested features like this for quite some time now. 
I am shocked at the number of people who are accepting of this, since I've always received negative responses over the years trying to get TFP to amp up the blood moon challenge and eliminate the insta-wins as much as possible.

The most common arguments against my requests were always, 1) stop trying to get the TFP to force us to play a certain way and 2) If you don't think horde nights are challenging, then turn them off, and 3) If you think driving around all night on horde night is an exploit, then don't do it.
My counter has always been that the blood moon is the pinnacle event for which this game is named. It shouldn't be easily avoided, period. If it is too hard, then you could always turn them off, but don't deny players a good, legitimate challenge.
 
There are going to be people who hate this, such as in OP. I really wish there was something to make those people feel better about it. All I know is that when the highlighting feature of a game can easily be beaten, you really don't have much of a game. I could be wrong, but I truly believe that for every person who hates this, there will be a dozen who accept it and possibly even embrace it as something to overcome. There may have been several other ways to go about eliminating vehicle cheese on BM, but when I see this, it fits well into the world and gameplay for me... even in a 4x4. People may think they could just blast through them, but between wings flapping around on your windshield, talons grabbing at your head, bones and guts jamming your wheel wells, the ability of the vultures to stop you is believable to me. I was originally thinking zombie bears would ram you from the sides, but this is even better as it covers the gyro case.

 

[Roland]

You are a garbage @%$*#! mod Roland.

There you are.

 

[Boidster]

A 'racetrack' horde defense sounds like a ton of fun. Pause at each station for a few moments for the turrets to unload on your pursuers and then race off to the next checkpoint.

So, I tried this idea. It has some potential, but there are two big issues:

• Vultures stop the 4x4 dead in its tracks, even when attacking from behind; I can see them slowing it maybe a bit, and definitely doing non-trivial damage (to the 4x4 and to me), but probably not bringing it to a dead stop
  
• Vultures are not affected by electric fences. They get zapped, but do not slow down at all
  

I had four "gates", each with two SMG turrets and electric fences on either side, just above the 4x4. There was a 2-high wall between these two gates and the other two and I drove in an oval around the wall. The entire 'track' was not covered by the SMGs, so that could be an improvement. And maybe shotgun turrets would be more effective against the birds, I dunno.

The big weakness is just that you can't maintain any momentum - when a bird hits, the vehicle stops and then it's dogpile (birdpile?) time.

Still a fun idea - I bet someone better at designing these things could make it work. The 'covered' track idea might have promise.

 

[Dracula]

Read through all of this; makes me feel like my nit-picks are a lot less pedantic.  Thanks.

I like the idea of difficulty tiers being tied to what zombies spawn; that would fix a lot of the issues I have where I mod out select zombies; namely spider zombies and, now, vultures.

I hate, hate, HATE the change to the vultures; started a thread about it because they can @%$*#! off back to Hell, but I do see some good changes in the direction of the game and I am a notoriously difficult critic.  My biggest gripe is still texture shading and all that does is limit my ability to make a driveway.

The new "stone age" is a bit jarring from how I normally play, but made A19 fun out of the box; even if it does hurt realism a lot.

I would like to see crafting L6 items return; as a limit to what you can create is a problem for a crafting game.  It becomes better-graphics Minecraft without zombies and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

[RipClaw]

I am shocked at the number of people who are accepting of this, since I've always received negative responses over the years trying to get TFP to amp up the blood moon challenge and eliminate the insta-wins as much as possible.

Most of them will only notice it after they have either seen the video of Vedui or try to escape from a horde with a vehicle. As long as they fight the Horde in their base they won't notice anything.

Don't forget that this is still the experimental version. Most players probably still play Alpha 18. Especially the players who play on public servers.

I am particularly curious about the feedback of the multiplayer players once A19 stable is released. They have no way to disable the horde.

My counter has always been that the blood moon is the pinnacle event for which this game is named. It shouldn't be easily avoided, period. If it is too hard, then you could always turn them off, but don't deny players a good, legitimate challenge.

I believe the game was named after the disease that created the zombies. If you got infected, you were dead after 7 days.

The Horde didn't even exist in the first alpha versions.

I could be wrong, but I truly believe that for every person who hates this, there will be a dozen who accept it and possibly even embrace it as something to overcome. 

Everyone thinks that he is part of the majority.

By the way, I ran some tests. Even if you try to dodge with the bike or jump off repeatedly and try to shoot the vultures, you can't escape them. In no time you are dead because you have critical injuries.

It is much safer to leave the bike and escape on foot. I have tested it with both light and heavy armor. I achieved the best results with padded armor + college jacket + high performance running shoes and coffee. As long as the coffee buff is active (3 minutes) you don't lose any stamina.

I would have preferred a less extreme solution here. Originally it was said that the zombies try to run into the vehicle and you have to dodge so that you can't just drive straight ahead but you can escape. It was also said that you can spend the night at the trader for a fee, but this was not realized either.

 

[hiemfire]

It was also said that you can spend the night at the trader for a fee, but this was not realized either.

When that was mentioned is was brought up as being down the road if at all.

 

[katarynna]

I'm trying really hard to look at things from the perspective of the OP, but I just can't. This is likely to be because I have requested features like this for quite some time now. 
I am shocked at the number of people who are accepting of this, since I've always received negative responses over the years trying to get TFP to amp up the blood moon challenge and eliminate the insta-wins as much as possible.

For me personally, it is a simple change to accept, since hopping in a vehicle to drive away from the horde is not something I personally would ever do. Fight or die!

However, I only play sp or peer to peer with friends. I don't care what other people do in their sp games, and I can certainly see the argument of the server players who log in and it's 21:59 on horde night. They may be in a situation where die, try to outrun the horde til 0400, or immediately log off and screw the next guy are their only options now. While I personally would just take the death and stay hiding in my base til morning if the base was not horde-ready, that is hardly compelling gameplay lol. 

I am sure there are people like me who accept the change with no raging just because it doesn't affect me, who were also fine with a18's vehicle get-away strategy. It was not an insta-win for me because I didn't use it by choice, which is a choice everyone was able to make if they don't like things like that.

However, I tend to roll with the punches and adapt to changes even when they do affect me. I enjoy figuring out new strats to deal with new mechanics.

 

[meganoth]

So, I tried this idea. It has some potential, but there are two big issues:

• Vultures stop the 4x4 dead in its tracks, even when attacking from behind; I can see them slowing it maybe a bit, and definitely doing non-trivial damage (to the 4x4 and to me), but probably not bringing it to a dead stop
  
• Vultures are not affected by electric fences. They get zapped, but do not slow down at all
  

I had four "gates", each with two SMG turrets and electric fences on either side, just above the 4x4. There was a 2-high wall between these two gates and the other two and I drove in an oval around the wall. The entire 'track' was not covered by the SMGs, so that could be an improvement. And maybe shotgun turrets would be more effective against the birds, I dunno.

The big weakness is just that you can't maintain any momentum - when a bird hits, the vehicle stops and then it's dogpile (birdpile?) time.

Still a fun idea - I bet someone better at designing these things could make it work. The 'covered' track idea might have promise.

View attachment 11980

Use the motorbike, Luke. Faster it is.

At least in Veduis video the motorbike is clearly better at keeping some speed than the 4x4. You need enough turrets so that you kill more birds than new ones reach you. Since they are fast and probably just spawn in the air above you that means 2 turrets may not be enough.

 

[Boidster]

I they should balance the anti-vehicle vultures so that they can't really affect vehicle momentum, but they can do non-trivial damage to it. Since you can't repair the vehicle while you're in it, you're only going to flee so far before it breaks (never mind all of the lacerations and broken bones you get!). That would make a horde escape very difficult if not impossible, but would still allow the vehicle to be used as...well, a vehicle. I think running over a few zombies is fine. And if you've got 10 motorcycles, maybe even hopping out of a broken one and into a new one should also be fine. Of course I've never really been opposed to escaping/avoiding the horde on general principles so I'm a little more lenient than most. Spending horde night 4x4-ing on zombie heads seems like a lot of fun to me!

If the vehicle could make several laps of the circuit before breaking down, then there could be an interesting defense involving kiting the vultures (and other zombies) around the track while also having to stop (in an underground garage?) for a few moments to repair. The repair time should not be instant like it is now, though.

I'll try a motorcycle later to see if it's any better.

 

[Demandred1957]

Read through all of this; makes me feel like my nit-picks are a lot less pedantic.

Nothing Pedantic about wanting some fairness.

 

[Boidster]

I'll try a motorcycle later to see if it's any better.

OMFG that was so much fun. Absolutely it is doable to survive the vultures on a motorcycle if you run around a 'track' with SMG turret support. The other zombies just sort of wander around getting shot by the turrets without really affecting the motorcycle. Now I didn't have demolishers so who knows how they'd break things. Most fun was deciding when to hop off the bike and apply a medkit real quick. On one occasion that little stunt resulted in my having 30 HP less fewer than when I stopped. Good idea to have antibiotics and a plaster cast or two also. I had nearly all the debuffs going at the same time. The squirrelly handling of the motorcycle added to the excitement.

I really want to try this strategy co-op, either both on motorcycles or one guy on a central tower base providing support. Maybe the MC rider will kite all the vultures and the tower guy can concentrate on either shooting the ground zombies or picking off the birds as they chase the MC.

They just need to fix it so vultures get stunned by the fences.

 

[Demandred1957]

So take your lumps, make your mistakes, and get better.  I did not get to be an "masochist expert player" via osmosis.  I learned 1 death at a time.  I've died ALOT to get where I am in terms of 7DTD skill today.  Makings mistakes is how you identify issues and improve.  If you don't like that then turn down the difficulty or turn off horde night.  Though IMO the default difficulty with 8 zombie hordes is something that any somewhat decent player should be able to handle.  I'm tackling 32/64 zombies at a time on the next difficulty up from default without issue.  8 zombies at a time 1 difficulty down isn't just easier, it's exponentially easier. 

I've done a variety of base design, from bunker bases to catwalks to mazing and etc.  I convert POIs into bases primarily these days because I've gotten so experienced at building my own bases that even eccentric ideas tend to work quite well.  I also have a strict "no repair until after the horde night is over" rule as well as a limit on how many molotovs/explosives I'm allowed to use since they are ridiculously overpowered on anything but the highest difficulties. 

Here's an example of a simple bunker base with a death room that'll see you all the way to Demo zombies late game. Other weapons are actually stronger in that setup than turrets due to superior piercing, range, aim, etc.  So you can run that kind of base with any skill/weapon focus.  Though the new turret AP ammo helps them be more competitive in A19 now.

I'm sorry but "git gud" actually does apply here.  I'm not setting a high bar.  Default difficulty with 8 zombies at a time is entry level.  "Masochist expert players" are on higher difficulties with more zombies at a time.  Time to stop complaining and start learning instead or you'll plateau and stop improving. 

Yeah, you are forgetting the broken vultures... I play on default btw because I am not interested in over the top, unbalanced bs. You get them vultures now no matter what. Devs need to get off their lazy a##'s and tie that crap to the difficulty slider.

 

[Laz Man]

OMFG that was so much fun. Absolutely it is doable to survive the vultures on a motorcycle if you run around a 'track' with SMG turret support. The other zombies just sort of wander around getting shot by the turrets without really affecting the motorcycle. Now I didn't have demolishers so who knows how they'd break things. Most fun was deciding when to hop off the bike and apply a medkit real quick. On one occasion that little stunt resulted in my having 30 HP less than when I stopped. Good idea to have antibiotics and a plaster cast or two also. I had nearly all the debuffs going at the same time. The squirrelly handling of the motorcycle added to the excitement.

I really want to try this strategy co-op, either both on motorcycles or one guy on a central tower base providing support. Maybe the MC rider will kite all the vultures and the tower guy can concentrate on either shooting the ground zombies or picking off the birds as they chase the MC.

They just need to fix it so vultures get stunned by the fences.

That's awesome, would love to watch a video of this.  

 

[Demandred1957]

Yeah but those same children will be screaming NO FAIR as soon as they lose (even fairly), or you take their toy away (also fairly). Kinda reminds me of something. Just saying.

 it's not being taken away fairly in this case. get rekt. jus saian..

 

[Boidster]

Please Do Not Approach The Pram​

Binkies, Rattles, and a Stuffed Rabbit May Emerge Without Warning​