PC Nothing says open world survival crafting like being forced to run quests.....

[boban]

Hard to tell i guess, but the Darkness Falls Discord has about 3K members. Doesn´t mean all of them play the mod, but also not everyone who plays it joined the discord. I am the only one i our group of 5 who is in the discord and we play it regulary.

Yea, maybe TFP have some way of tracking that but otherwise it's a guess work. According to steamspy 7d2d sold 10M-20M copies. Let's be conservative and go for 10M. And let's be generous and triple the number of discord users to 10k (so the math is easy) DF players. It gives us 1% of all players. That math is wonky as there are too many unknowns though, but a number close to 1%-3% of all players using mods for 7d2d wouldn't really surprise me.

I don't know how we could get reliable stats. Admittedly I said that without actual backing numbers but I would bet you a mega crush that 7DTD have significantly more mod users than most games. Maybe not as much as Skyrim though.  

The catch here is that what I meant by "active players" are the people who play it regularly on PC. As opposed to people who have it sitting in their steam library but did not play it very much or at all. And let's not talk about the console players, poor folks.   

We can't get the stats. Maybe even TFP can't (unless they have some stats tracking built in). Though I would still guess that it's tiny minority of all TFP customers. In general modding is something you support in a game, because you either believe it's cool or you love your community. IIRC TFP founders originate from modding scene, so it might be both

 

[meganoth]

So you admit you are just trolling.

I wouldn't call it trolling when I simply give an answer/counterpoint to one interpretation of a complaint that had multiple possible interpretations. 

I never asked for a conversation.

Sure. But this is a forum, anyone can talk to anyone and butt into any proclamation if he wants.

You are just assuming that. I am simply giving the developers feedback from someone that has bought the game and played it a long time. If you want me to explain my reasoning I am happy to. As I already explained every POI *IS* a quest now. Regardless of weather or not you pick it up from the trader. You can't craft without finding randomly placed thousands of books. Just not very immersive or fun. Very forcefull way to force people into POI's for a game that should be a more open concept. That is my opinion. Shrug. Hope you have a great day.

In my (admittedly worthless) opinion this paraphraph would work much better as feedback than your initial post. 

 

[Maverick]

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

Cheers,

Mafke

 

[Greymantle]

Really not a fan of the last several iterations of trying to "fix" the crafting/looting/skills systems. What is going on? Why are we being forced to play an open world survival game a certain type of way?, it makes no sense. I don't want to have to grind POI quests all day. It just feels cumbersome and a constant grind instead of any sort of natural progression. All of the graphical improvements, Random gen, everything you guys have done has been awesome. But what the hell is the deal with finding and looting a million books. Is this really because you put a ton of work into POI's so you feel you have to force everyone to run them all the time? And what is the deal with setting up all POI's now with every single zombie being hidden or bursting out of a wall, or dropping from the ceiling. Is just randomly being ambushed with almost no control what you think is fun? The progression just feels so bad, and isn't fun or entertaining trying to track down millions of books. Why did someone think this would be fun? I am very confused. Any way we can get a classic mode or something and revert back to the original systems. I recommend taking a look at undeadlegacy or some of the mods that are at least trying to sort of do interesting things without making it just feel ugh....

Pretty much nailed it. The mini book/magazine game along with the new water game is boring as h e l l.  If I was CEO of the company, I would fire those that were involved with this choice of a game-play loop. And yes, I would fire Mad Mole if he is the reason for this abomination of a game-play loop.

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

Cheers,

Mafke

The slow move to force players to play their way as been going on for a few versions. This version though was the huge leap in forcing game-play on us. I have no idea why they needed to make this change, and no idea why they thought it was a good change.

 

[meganoth]

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

Cheers,

Mafke

The game has a mode specifically for players wanting freedom and it is turned on with the "cm" command. Just give yourself a filter, a low level iron pickaxe and 20 magazines of your choice and the rest will likely work out because you can buy everything including better tools and magazines at the trader, just like before. You just need to have a source of income.

As a disclaimer: I haven't tried this out, so feel free to correct me if there is a problem with this method.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I am a builder, 7days has been my building game since Alpha 2. I am really happy with new blocks and deco items for me to play with.

Me being a builder though, also means I am not playing 7days for the looting/shooting. I am good at it, but it's not why I play the game.

Me now being forced to now start looting excessively just to be able to craft the tools I need to build my creations, or get potable water while sitting next to a lake, is someone else deciding how I should play this game. It's taking away the freedom this game was great for.

I really don't understand why POI looting is forced down our throat, other than it being a gimmicky way of slowing progression.

But that's just the thing: I decide my own pace of progression.

Great games give players the tools to play the devs game the players way.

Weak games give players one way to play the game.

Cheers,

Mafke

What was your approach in A20?  A lot of items require parts or resources that can only be acquired through looting. Did you skip steel tools or tier 2 and 3 weapons? If you were using traps, how would you get the required resources?l

 

[RipClaw]

What was your approach in A20?  A lot of items require parts or resources that can only be acquired through looting

That's true but iron tools, T1 melee weapons and T0 guns don't require parts.

In fact you can build a forge, a workbench and a cement mixer in A20 without looting a single container. You just need to know a few tricks.

 

[Vaeliorin]

What was your approach in A20?  A lot of items require parts or resources that can only be acquired through looting. Did you skip steel tools or tier 2 and 3 weapons? If you were using traps, how would you get the required resources?l

I probably only looted one POI a week after Day 14 in A20, and I never had an issue.  Granted, I'd loot random trash and cars as I was moving around the world, but I had plenty of parts for steel tools and such (after all, you only need to make them once.)

As for the resources for traps, mining and wrenching gives everything you need for dart traps/blade traps/electric fences.

 

[Maverick]

The game has a mode specifically for players wanting freedom and it is turned on with the "cm" command. Just give yourself a filter, a low level iron pickaxe and 20 magazines of your choice and the rest will likely work out because you can buy everything including better tools and magazines at the trader, just like before. You just need to have a source of income.

As a disclaimer: I haven't tried this out, so feel free to correct me if there is a problem with this method.

The fact that I can fix a screw up (by modding it out myself or using cm) doesn't make it less of a screw up

 

[meganoth]

The fact that I can fix a screw up (by modding it out myself or using cm) doesn't make it less of a screw up

But from TFP's standpoint it isn't a screw up at all.

I may be speaking out of my league here, but the game was always designed and balanced by TFP for 1-8 people playing the whole game. "Fringe" styles like playing completely without trader, playing completely without looting POI's, playing nomad, playing with blood moon every night, playing pacifist, playing without leaving a tier5 building, playing completely underground and whatever else you can think of are not balanced and tested for viability at all. TFP has not the manpower to do this and even if they had they can't develop the game for the normal players in the way they want to if they have to accomodate all these other play styles. So those other play styles worked in earlier alphas because of many missing mechanisms that made the game more like a sandbox and incidentally often by chance.

If you want to play a fringe play style, then you have to make sure yourself (or in combo with like minded players) that it is somewhat balanced for you again, or you have to accept that it may be getting harder or weirder any time. Because by chance any change to vanilla that makes totally sense for normal players can be bad for your play style.

But the game gives you so many tools to correct problems thrown in the way of your play style. I think you are better off trying to find ways to get your type of game back by way of cm, options or mods than trying to get TFP to change back something that made a lot of "normal" players happy.

 

[Maverick]

But from TFP's standpoint it isn't a screw up at all.

I may be speaking out of my league here, but the game was always designed and balanced by TFP for 1-8 people playing the whole game. "Fringe" styles like playing completely without trader, playing completely without looting POI's, playing nomad, playing with blood moon every night, playing pacifist, playing without leaving a tier5 building, playing completely underground and whatever else you can think of are not balanced and tested for viability at all. TFP has not the manpower to do this and even if they had they can't develop the game for the normal players in the way they want to if they have to accomodate all these other play styles. So those other play styles worked in earlier alphas because of many missing mechanisms that made the game more like a sandbox and incidentally often by chance.

If you want to play a fringe play style, then you have to make sure yourself (or in combo with like minded players) that it is somewhat balanced for you again, or you have to accept that it may be getting harder or weirder any time. Because by chance any change to vanilla that makes totally sense for normal players can be bad for your play style.

But the game gives you so many tools to correct problems thrown in the way of your play style. I think you are better off trying to find ways to get your type of game back by way of cm, options or mods than trying to get TFP to change back something that made a lot of "normal" players happy.

I've done mega builds going in to 700 days with 20 people, I know how to play multiplayer, so trust me, this new "find your recipes" is actually a hindrence for that kind of play style.

You are here telling everyone why they are wrong, but you never consider that you're the one that has absolutely no idea what the player base wants. The player base is not you, and it's not the fun pimps. 

Just throw up a poll and see how wrong you are. And don't give me the "it's their game" @%$#e, cause if that's their attitude, the sequal they are working on is dead before it launches. 

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I've done mega builds going in to 700 days with 20 people, I know how to play multiplayer, so trust me, this new "find your recipes" is actually a hindrence for that kind of play style.

You are here telling everyone why they are wrong, but you never consider that you're the one that has absolutely no idea what the player base wants. The player base is not you, and it's not the fun pimps. 

Just throw up a poll and see how wrong you are. And don't give me the "it's their game" @%$#e, cause if that's their attitude, the sequal they are working on is dead before it launches. 

Do you think a majority of the player base does not engage with a core mechanic of the game, quests and looting? 

 

[Maverick]

Do you think a majority of the player base does not engage with a core mechanic of the game, quests and looting? 

I think the majority of the players want freedom to play the game they want, without having to mod or cheat. And time and again, this game is narrowing it's focus, making people resort to third party changes.

That's just @%$#ed from a development standpoint.

Why not go gold now and say "we know everyone else can do it better so we give up"?

Alpha 21 has no new major changes other than graphics updates and this, a stupid change no one asked for. 

Alpha 21 will drop to Alpha 20.7 player levels within 2 months after which the devs will need a whole year to generate a new Alpha and new interest. 

This Alpha pretty much shows that attention has already been directed to the follow up game. So stop messing up a good thing. 

 

[meganoth]

I've done mega builds going in to 700 days with 20 people, I know how to play multiplayer, so trust me, this new "find your recipes" is actually a hindrence for that kind of play style.

If you don't have at least one looter in your group then yes, it is quite a hindrance. And I never said anything different. Why would I have suggested CM if it wasn't a problem for you now?

You are here telling everyone why they are wrong, but you never consider that you're the one that has absolutely no idea what the player base wants. The player base is not you, and it's not the fun pimps. 

Just throw up a poll and see how wrong you are. And don't give me the "it's their game" @%$#e, cause if that's their attitude, the sequal they are working on is dead before it launches. 

Kosmik Kerman said it quite well. Also take into account that TFP has telemetry so they more than likely know how the "player base" plays.

 

[Maverick]

If you don't have at least one looter in your group then yes, it is quite a hindrance. And I never said anything different. Why would I have suggested CM if it wasn't a problem for you now?

Kosmik Kerman said it quite well. Also take into account that TFP has telemetry so they more than likely know how the "player base" plays.

The fact the Madmole was laughed at for not knowing his own game when he did the announcement streams should tell you enough. 

 

[meganoth]

The fact the Madmole was laughed at for not knowing his own game when he did the announcement streams should tell you enough. 

If you like you can change the "know how the "player base" plays" to "think they know how the "player base" plays". And it won't change reality one bit. I haven't seem them say anywhere that because of their player base being pure builders they are now throwing out all the POIs and zombies.

By the way, what is your opinion about the new shapes and doors they added? As a builder I thought you would have cared for that.

 

[Maverick]

If you like you can change the "know how the "player base" plays" to "think they know how the "player base" plays". And it won't change reality one bit. I haven't seem them say anywhere that because of their player base being pure builders they are now throwing out all the POIs and zombies.

By the way, what is your opinion about the new shapes they added? As a builder I thought you would have cared for that.

You read what you want to read and think yourself smart for it: I never said it's only builder, only looters or only zombie killer, I said it's about the freedom to choose your own play style and this alpha steering away from that,  but what ever floats your boat.

I started with saying that the new blocks and shapes are great, but how long do you think a couple of new windows and doors are going to stand up against the core game being changed? That's a minor plus vs a big minus.

What the hell have they been doing for the last year and a half? Rewrote the code to Unity5?

 

[BFT2020]

I started with saying that the new blocks and shapes are great, but how long do you think a couple of new windows and doors are going to stand up against the core game being changed? That's a minor plus vs a big minus.

The core game hasn't changed though.  It is still a survival, looting, crafting, building, zombie defense game in a total destructible world.  However, if you want to eliminate or ignore certain aspects of the game, you will have issues unless you mod the game to address those issues or use CM like meganoth suggested.

If the core game was simply building structures, then you would have a point on the changes made.

 

[Maverick]

The core game hasn't changed though.  It is still a survival, looting, crafting, building, zombie defense game in a total destructible world.  However, if you want to eliminate or ignore certain aspects of the game, you will have issues unless you mod the game to address those issues or use CM like meganoth suggested.

If the core game was simply building structures, then you would have a point on the changes made.

And yet, up untill one week ago, it wasn't an issue, and here we are. 

 

[meganoth]

You read what you want to read and think yourself smart for it: I never said it's only builder, only looters or only zombie killer, I said it's about the freedom to choose your own play style and this alpha steering away from that,  but what ever floats your boat.

Now actually if you do some looting and questing by the side there may be far less problems ahead of you than you think. Magazines are only for crafting and most magazines are completely optional even for a builder. And that includes the tools magazines for example as you should be able to sometimes buy better tools at the trader.

I started with saying that the new blocks and shapes are great, but how long do you think a couple of new windows and doors are going to stand up against the core game being changed? That's a minor plus vs a big minus.

What the hell have they been doing for the last year and a half? Rewrote the code to Unity5?

They worked on bandits, getting them maybe to 80% release-worthy (just my estimate from hearing Fataal talk about it). I think that ate a lot of their time but won't be seen at all until A22.