Chronosphere
New member
why not have something to look forward too when u see thatntier 6 looted? cmon guys, dont be so spoiled.
PC No Tier 6 Crafting
- Thread starter 00debbie
- Start date
Roland
Community Moderator
Over the last 18 alphas there have been releases where we couldn't even craft weapons at all. There have been other releases where we assembled weapons from parts but the parts couldn't be crafted. There have been other releases where we could craft guns by using molds to make the parts. Currently we can craft guns out of basic materials and one component that must be looted.
Through all of these changes over the past 6 years the game was still a crafting game. It still is a crafting game. They will be continuing to balance and tweak things to make sure crafting is relevant and works well with looting.
The sky has not fallen.
AtomicUs5000
New member
I think the best way would be if both sides of the coin got some love.
Some of the best items you can only loot... AND some of the best items you can only craft.
Some of the best items you can only loot... AND some of the best items you can only craft.
HungryZombie
New member
I feel TFPs are doing just this. They are still testing things out trying to find the right balance between looting and crafting. I don't get any feeling that the state it is in now is final from what I've read.
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
i hate this change. It´s such a luck based game now. Congrats on taking away an achievment for the player and replacing it with lottery. Not fun.
I got a lot of tier 6 stuff yeah. Triples, Doubles some things even 4 times. But a single pick-, fireaxe or shovel? A pistol? A Junk turret? A stunbaton? Not on day 65. You build up your character in a certain way and then you have to rely on rng. meh.
I got a lot of tier 6 stuff yeah. Triples, Doubles some things even 4 times. But a single pick-, fireaxe or shovel? A pistol? A Junk turret? A stunbaton? Not on day 65. You build up your character in a certain way and then you have to rely on rng. meh.
Roland
Community Moderator
Wrong.
Tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon and you can craft it. There is nothing critical or necessary about Tier 6 for gameplay. It's nice to have and those few items you find that are Tier 6 are hopefully fantastic. But you can win the game and overcome anything for survival and even thriving by using Tier 5 equipment and it is entirely in your hands to craft those. The ONLY problem I see in what you described is the fact that you are getting lots of tier 6 stuff. It should be maybe a half dozen at most in a 100 day playthrough.
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
I sorta like how you cant get things right away, it makes you make different choices which leads to each playthrough being different. In my current game (Day 50) I have 7 junk turrets but no m60. I'm currently specced for INT to take advantage of all the turrets and having a blast with my horde base.
Hopefully I get an M60 in my next playthrough so I can try a different strategy/build.
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I'm confused. What does crafting stuff have anything to do with getting them right away. You can't craft tier 5 gear until you get 10 points into a stat and then raise the stat to 5. So at a minimum someone needs 21 skill points to get a particular skill to cap so they can craft 5's. That doesn't give them the resources or the materials (i.e. weapon/tool/armor parts) that they then still need to farm up, which are also random. I also like how your final comment makes the point about loot being completely luck based even further. To make an M60 you need to find a book on top of all the previous things I listed (assuming it ranks along with automatic weapon skill under fort). In essence, your response might have well have been, 'I like turtles!' because it doesn't actually address anything you quoted at all. So cool, you like an aspect of the game that would barely change if people could craft tier 6 at 5 in the relevant skill. Cool, I guess?
You quoted his entire post and then expect someone to infer you're referencing single very specific comment outside the scope of the point of his entire post when you say absolutely nothing that even indicates the very narrow scope of his argument you're responding to? That's not a reading comprehension issue. That's a failure to communicate what you're actually talking about issue.
And to boot, your point about M60's makes your response even more silly because it makes his same argument. You have to pray to get a single item to drop so you can try a build revolving around that item. Nice job making his argument for him I guess?
Edit: Let me say it this way. His post was lamenting the luck or RNG aspect of loot rewards. You respond by saying you like the speed of acquisition (not something he commented about) and then comment about the M60 which is even more gated behind RNG/luck than what he was talking about and go so far as to say you hope one drops so you can try a build based on it in your next game, which is even more extreme than the point he's making. Think about that for a second. How does your comment do anything except talk about things he wasn't talking about or reinforce his point?
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Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
Perhaps I could have quoted his specific sentence but decided not to because his entire post was just a few sentences long. I figured most would have understood what I meant but It looks like I was wrong about that.
You could have also have chosen to ask me to elaborate instead of completely disregarding my response with an insult.
Edit: Also, why are you responding on his behalf? For all you know, he understood where I was coming from and had a response for me?
Edit2: I apologize for the reading comprehension comment. Had a ♥♥♥♥ty day at work and your turtle comment irked me...
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Roland
Community Moderator
His entire post? It was two short paragraphs. It was pretty clear to me that Laz was taking what Papa was saying and turning it around to a positive way to look at it.
Papa was lamenting that you can’t always find that specific thing you want when you need it. Laz was saying that that quality adds replay value to the game and allows for multiple play throughs to not feel samey
I’d say both perspectives are true at the same time and one doesn’t disprove or invalidate the other. It can be frustrating not finding what you want AND it makes the next time you play different if your luck runs differently.
I’m also right AT THE SAME TIME because no matter how you look at it the player can craft up to the highest tier they need in order to be beyond well equipped and that is Tier 5.
It's not an insult to tell you that your response has no bearing on the point he was making. Shifting the goalpost to "I'm talking about one line of his post" doesn't even make sense when that one line is out of context. He was not, even in that line, providing feedback about the speed of acquisition which is the point you made. His point was always about the rng/luck nature of tier 6 loot rewards. And while you tell me that I could ask you to elaborate, that's exactly what I did. Here's exactly what I said:
I'm confused. What does crafting stuff have anything to do with getting them right away.
But hey, if you get salty about the most trivial of challenges, by all means, be salty. I'm not even knocking your opinion about how you like how random loot rewards dictate your builds. If that's what you find fun, cool, more power to you man.
To the topic at large, I'm relatively new around here so I haven't seen any developers or posts on steam talking about design philosophies regarding loot or the end goal that they're working towards. Do we even know whether this system is final? It sounds like from comments people have made that the system is in transition. I've heard people mention old systems they've transitioned away from (repairing upgrading quality and using parts from one item to improve other items) and legendary items that the current tier 6 are placeholders for. I know doing a clear or fetch/clear tier 5 mission rewards a guaranteed tier 6 item which makes them far more prevalent than the half a dozen in a 100 day playthrough mentioned above by Roland. I can farm a tier 6 item once a game day right now. Then there's the plethora of parts that can't be smelted in the forge and having to acquire 4-5 items of the type one wants to craft before we can craft something which seems kinda silly.
In the end, some people are going to prefer deterministic systems with minimal luck/rng. Some people are going to believe crafting should be the only method to acquire the best gear. Some people are going to be okay with crafting or questing rewarding comparable. And yet others are going to be okay with rng/luck based loot rewards. It's all a matter of opinion and different people find different things fun. None of those are wrong.
I read what they both said. That's not what they said. That's what you're trying to spin it as. Papa wasn't commenting about how he 'needed' a tier 6 fire axe. He was commenting about how he's gotten tons of tier 6 gear but there are plenty of items he's never seen at tier 6. That's not about need. He was talking about building a character a specific way, which inherently results in you relying on very specific pieces of gear, and having no way whatsoever to actually ensure you can acquire those items. If you think he was complaining about not getting a specific tier 6 item when he needed it that's because you didn't read his post. You skimmed/dismissed it. I think your response makes that pretty clear though. He's providing his opinion about luck/rng based loot systems and the first word of your response was 'wrong'. His opinion isn't wrong.
Though yes, what Laz wrote wasn't a response to that, I agree it seems his intent was to show the positives of the current system and how he enjoys the current loot system. That's a perfectly valid opinion to have too.
Sure, they're opinions. But again my point to Laz was not dismissing his opinion. It was that stating what he likes about the system in the way that he said it isn't a response to the issue that Papa put forth.
Need isn't really an argument that can be made seriously. This is a game. No one needs anything. Hell, if we're going to quibble about meaningless points, no one needs more than a rank 1 weapons. The systems are all arbitrary anyways based on the subjective design philosophies of the devs. Such a point is just trying to hand wave away people's opinions.
Frustration and challenge are good things. But they can also be bad things too. The cumbersome nature of armor crafting is an example. 60 parts to craft 5 pieces of gear. Have you ever, in a 100 days played, crafted all 5 pieces of armor at tier 5 because they were better than what you were using? Even in games where I have tried often times I've found tier 6 light armor that's better than the tier 5 heavy armor I've made and I haven't been able to get enough parts to make a full set anyways. It just seems pointless. Add that to the fact that armor skills don't actually increase the damage protection capabilities of armor like weapon skills increase the damage output of weapons and after playing through A18 many times over now I have a hard time justifying armor skills at all. It's just not worth the investment when I know I won't feasibly be able to get the parts to make it when it's relevant to me and even if I try I'm going to find loot that's often times better before I can do so.
That said, I've already made the point that I think we probably don't see the whole picture of where loot is going to end up and this is an alpha. Providing feedback about where we're at right now is good because it lets Devs see what we think, even if we're ignorant of upcoming changes. They can use that feedback. I'm not going to be as melodramatic as Papa about this ruining the game or anything but I certaining understand where he's coming from.
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Jugginator
Tester
Yeah, I agree about armor. It costs an ungodly amount of parts to make them. I think I've crafted only a few. Granted, I find them, but even if I scapped all the ones I've found / possibly could have bought at traders I'd maybe have enough for 2 or 3 pieces lol. Would be nice if we could choose which grade to craft, and/or lowering the costs a bit (just the parts).
I mean, why not make them cost a ton more steel rather than require parts? Or let a max level crafter craft parts.
I mean, why not make them cost a ton more steel rather than require parts? Or let a max level crafter craft parts.
Armor is in a tough spot. The primary benefit to taking the armor skills now is the ability to craft the armor because, I presume, they don't want to increase the actual damage protection capabilities of it even more on the skills. There's already a big difference between being armored and not and being well armored and low end armor. I hope the scrap for parts system is only a precursor to something more, like you mentioned the ability to make steel parts with molds or something. It would be cool if we could turn crushed sand and clay into a ceramic mold in the forge, then combine steel + a mold to make specific parts. Then allow us to smelt parts back into the forge for weapons we find out in the wild looting that we don't need. That would complete the system very well I believe.
Jugginator
Tester
Yeah. It's just that as it is there's really no way one is going to come close to crafting a set of armor before finding an entire set of lvl 5/6 lol. It's kind of a pointless option to even be able to craft em. I almost feel the same way about guns, but tbf they're a dime a dozen compared to armor.
Absolutely. But also ranking up a skill in guns has a direct and potent impact on how well they do what you use them for. To be fair, they could entirely remove the ability for the skills to make the weapon, put it under a specific Smithing skill in STR or something, and I would still take the relevant weapon skills to the build I'm using in that specific game. Armor doesn't have that luxury. For heavy armor the penalty to movement speed is predominantly offset by taking cardio so in the game I took heavy armor skill, both for the ability to craft it and to offset the movement penalty, I've ended up respec'ing out of it. For light armor the improved customized fittings mod does the work just fine. There's no need for the skill. I'd be interested to see what % of the playerbase who aren't brand spanking new to the game ever put points in armor as my guess would be most people start thinking it's very important and then realize over time that the effect on the armor skills isn't in the same league as the other skills for value.