PC No more exploding loot in A17?

[RestInPieces]

Spoilage won't stop farming invalidating any long term food concerns. All it will do is ensure farming is done only on an "as needed" basis, rather than do to generate giant stockpiles of food.
Don't get me wrong, I'd hate to see farming removed, but so long as it's there, food won't ever be a long term issue (but I'm ok with that, given that I do enjoy the farming from time to time and don't want to see it removed).

All it will do? It will actually make an activity and the need for food meaningful. The whole point of farming in the first place is to make food concerns easier to handle and giving you higher quality food. Along with fertilization, the player will make his life easier when it comes to food, but will have to plan and work for it. Lack of spoilage invalidates farming itself and every other food concern permanently. I think that's a pretty big deal in a survival game, don't you? Not to mention that canned food will become valuable, because the player will have a reason to stockpile it.

 

[LuckyStar]

Kill XP has to go as well (especially if you get xp from using weapons/damaging enemies like now), or become as minimal as the rate of experience you gain from other sources (if you don't). If it doesn't go away, people will still be compelled to "grind" zombies (and ironically later complain that the grind is getting boring). The gameloop/"grind" must be centered around survival.

Disagree!

Why "must" it?

So... people who like killing zombies are having fun wrong?

Hmm.... sorry, can't agree to that.

Survival sometimes does require farming something.

What if the only place in your area to get reliable parts is in a factory full of zeds.

You'd keep going back to kill them and see if any are carrying parts right?

While I'm open to the idea of less loot on zombies, removing experience from them ruins co-op play and limits game play styles.

Some players break up co-op teams by having Fighters + Builders/Farmers/Miners.

So you'd punish them for that play style?

I don't actively seek out fights but I'd prefer to "clear" a building than try to sneak around things hoping I don't get discovered.

Why should that style be punished as well?

Sorry.... don't agree with one word you're saying.

 

[RestInPieces]

OMG YOU DON'T AGREE?!?

Ok, let's break it down.

Kill XP has to go as well (especially if you get xp from using weapons/damaging enemies like now), or become as minimal as the rate of experience you gain from other sources (if you don't).

First of all, you did notice that I said that it has to go away completely, only if action/weapon exp stays in A17 and that kill exp should stay but be as beneficial as other actions, if weapon exp goes away, right? Will reply for the current state of the game:

Survival sometimes does require farming something.

Of course it does. You can farm resources in the environment, scavenge or kill zombies for loot - even if it's now less. You gain exp from all these sources. Do you have to farm extra levels for kill experience from them as well? The action of using your weapons against zombies will still get you some exp, but in line with other activities.

What if the only place in your area to get reliable parts is in a factory full of zeds.You'd keep going back to kill them and see if any are carrying parts right?

Yes. And the reward will be the parts you will be getting - plus all the experience from the actions you will do. Is kill experience that important?

removing experience from them ruins co-op play and limits game play styles.

Some players break up co-op teams by having Fighters + Builders/Farmers/Miners. So you'd punish them for that play style?

What I said in my post is that I am in favor of action exp and would like that the exp rate for all playstyles to be approximately the same if possible. Fighters would get exp from using weapons and the rest from working. Isn't that better for these people you describe?

We used to do that too with some friends. Once zombie exp was introduced, everyone became a fighter and wanted to kill zombies in order to not lag behind in levels. Even now that it got nerfed, it still is enough to make everyone want to be a fighter. None wants to stay at home and work on something else.

I don't actively seek out fights but I'd prefer to "clear" a building than try to sneak around things hoping I don't get discovered.Why should that style be punished as well?

Me as well. Why wouldn't you do that if zombies gave no exp? If you want to loot/scavenge in peace you have to do it - especially now with the better AI. You will still get some loot from them and some action experience.

Aren't all of the above reward enough, that you will still consider yourself to be punished if there is no kill exp?

Wouldn't a person who likes to sneak, more rightly feel that he is the one getting punished, since, not only will he lose that loot but also get less exp by sneaking, than killing those zombies?

Why "must" it?

From my experience... zombie kill exp ruins many aspects of gameplay. From thematic to more practical ones. Thematic being, everyone in the zombie apocalypse is out to get zombies. Sees them as "phat loot/exp" bags and is encouraged to grind them. Ignoring the anti-climatic effect this has on the zombie apocalypse, even people who won't like grinding zombies, will be compelled to do it, as long as it is above all other activities when it comes to exp, especially in co-op, so that they won't lag behind.

If zombie kill exp goes away, action exp is still here (in A16 at least) and those who enjoy just killing zombies will still get rewards.

According to Roland's post for A17

Yes there are still other ways to earn xp although they are looking at this so some things might end up being different than A16. You should be able to earn xp by mining, building (upgrading blocks), chopping down trees, killing zombies, killing animals, and farming (harvesting the fruits of your labor). They are talking about doing some sort of crafting xp that would give diminishing returns so that spam crafting wouldn't return but that is not for sure. Things like walking and jumping that used to increase your athletic skill is gone-- no xp gains from walking and jumping. Scavenging (opening containers) and trading are on the bubble so those might stay or go.

...action exp with weapons will probably go away. What I said in my previous post is that, if action exp goes away and kill exp stays, it should not go away as well, but come in line with action exp from other activities. Which is fair, no?

 

[OzHawkeye]

All it will do? It will actually make an activity and the need for food meaningful. The whole point of farming in the first place is to make food concerns easier to handle and giving you higher quality food. Along with fertilization, the player will make his life easier when it comes to food, but will have to plan and work for it. Lack of spoilage invalidates farming itself and every other food concern permanently. I think that's a pretty big deal in a survival game, don't you? Not to mention that canned food will become valuable, because the player will have a reason to stockpile it.

Spoilage isn't going, I think, to change the basic outcome - that is, that farming is an easy route to ensure food is never a long term concern.

All spoilage will do is ensure that you farm (or just harvest, since the grown plants won't spoil in the ground) as needed.

 

[RestInPieces]

Spoilage isn't going, I think, change the basic outcome - that is, that farming is an easy route to ensure food is never a long term concern.
All spoilage will do is ensure that you farm (or just harvest, since the grown plants won't spoil in the ground) as needed.

With adjustments, like a way of maintenance (e.g. bad fertilization causing plants to spoil), it doesn't have to be too easy, but yes, its purpose is to make your life easier. You trigger me when you say "all it will do is make you use a part of the game's content that currently just becomes redudant" Plus it's not only farming. Animals with default settings + scavenging are enough to make food obsolete after a while.

 

[Roland]

Spoilage isn't going, I think, change the basic outcome - that is, that farming is an easy route to ensure food is never a long term concern.
All spoilage will do is ensure that you farm (or just harvest, since the grown plants won't spoil in the ground) as needed.

Spoilage essentially splits the game into two tech eras. Low tech means you harvest and use all with no ability to save or store up food. It means that a portion of every day or so must be spent hunting, gathering, and harvesting. This is the most dramatic change that would occur to the game and it is another stressor to the early game.

High tech era means you've secured a way to store food and save it up through refrigeration or preservation so that you no longer have to allocate time on a regular basis for food gathering. This makes the late game play like the game plays right now. No real food worries. So I agree Oz, that the long term effect is that spoilage won't change the basic outcome that farming will lead the player to be swimming in food but not until the late game.

Also, in order to prevent the ground from essentially being the container that preserves food there would HAVE to be a death cycle for plants so that if they are not harvested they die anyway. The key is that the early game is a constant battle to meet nutritional needs on a daily basis because nothing can be stored up and banked for later and this drives the player to develop whatever tech is necessary to preserve and store banks of food so that they can get out of that daily allocation of food gathering time that takes away from other things.

 

[OzHawkeye]

+1 to the list of reasons why I look forward to A17, Roland.

 

[RestInPieces]

Spoilage essentially splits the game into two tech eras. Low tech means you harvest and use all with no ability to save or store up food. It means that a portion of every day or so must be spent hunting, gathering, and harvesting. This is the most dramatic change that would occur to the game and it is another stressor to the early game.
High tech era means you've secured a way to store food and save it up through refrigeration or preservation so that you no longer have to allocate time on a regular basis for food gathering. This makes the late game play like the game plays right now. No real food worries. So I agree Oz, that the long term effect is that spoilage won't change the basic outcome that farming will lead the player to be swimming in food but not until the late game.

Also, in order to prevent the ground from essentially being the container that preserves food there would HAVE to be a death cycle for plants so that if they are not harvested they die anyway. The key is that the early game is a constant battle to meet nutritional needs on a daily basis because nothing can be stored up and banked for later and this drives the player to develop whatever tech is necessary to preserve and store banks of food so that they can get out of that daily allocation of food gathering time that takes away from other things.

Well said. Much like any progression system, while imo it should not eliminate the need for farming food completely (preservation not being infinite, except for can food), it should make the player's life much easier, minimizing the time allocated for this activity.

+1 to the list of reasons why I look forward to A17, Roland.

Err... what do you mean? Is there going to be spoilage in A17? Don't hype me for nothing!

 

[Roland]

No food spoilage in A17 unfortunately.

 

[OzHawkeye]

No food spoilage in A17 unfortunately.

Ahh, apologies for the confusions. ;-)

 

[RestInPieces]

Ahh, apologies for the confusions. ;-)

Damn you! :'(

 

[badmojo]

As per the farming mechanics, I think it would benefit the game to get rid of the 'plant one, get multiple seeds' system and replace it with seeds being looted from barns. The problem with growing seeds is the short grow cycles. We can currently grow 1 seed into an excess of food and seeds in such a short amount of time that food becomes a chore insted of a concern.

With looted seeds your farming would be a huge convience, but it would no longer be self sustaining.

Seeds could possibly still be crafted from grown food, but it would have to be done at a 1:1 ratio, or even at a loss. This would have to include a food spoilage mechanic for it to work. If you grow 50 corn, you might want to turn 40 of the cobs into 40 seeds that wont spoil, only keeping 10 cobs to eat or preserve.

I like the farming in 7dtd, but its way too overpowered in its current implementation.

 

[Manly]

I like the farming in 7dtd, but its way too overpowered in its current implementation.

Hopefully, there will be mods that allow players to dial up or down the return on farming. Personally, I like not worrying about food. I like to build and kill zombies. Having to constantly farm and hunt the entire game is bothersome to me and takes away from how I like to enjoy the game.

Early game...bring on the starvation and dehydration....I LOVE the struggle to get past it. Late game...meh. I just want the hordes to smash up against my defenses.

To each his own!

 

[Scyris]

Some will have loot? I got the impression that zombie looting was eliminated completely.

They will have loot rarely it was said, but when they do, it'll have a high chance of being something good. Insted of just random cloth, or plant seeds, or random junk. Though I will miss all the brass/lead I got off zombies. Still sorta don't wanna know where that zombie cheerleader keeps that brass doorknob they seem to like to drop lol.

 

[tanstaafl]

The whole farming thing brings us back to why animals were nerfed in the first place? All it did was move from living on meat to living on corn bread. No matter how much you nerf farming, a larger farm will offset. Eliminate farming and keeping the animals nerfed will create a never ending stress.

 

[badmojo]

No matter how much you nerf farming, a larger farm will offset.

Not if they removed the ability to multiply seeds.

If finding 1 seed means you can grow 1 plant and eat it, or turn it back into 1 seed, then large farms would not offset having to loot more seeds.

Problem with farming is that it is basically a legit method for duplication. Imagine if you could cook raw meat and suddenly have another raw meat AND the cooked one after, you would never have to hunt again.

Nerfing the animals is not effective because farming is so profitable, until that changes there will never be any difficulty in feeding yourself.

 

[sargentcobra]

From the dev diary:-
Zombies are no longer lootable nor can they be harvested. 8/26/18

Bodies despawn instead of changing to gore blocks. 8/26/18

If zombies have loot they will drop a loot bag. 8/26/18

I see a problem how are we going to farm bones and fat now when need bones for shives and glue, and fat for fuel and talow

 

[meganoth]

When it comes to food in particular, farming inevitably renders it moot. The nature of geometric progression (and to work, farming has to give at least 2 outputs for each input) means that, sooner or later, no matter what TFP does with the default growth timers and the like, any even halfway dedicated farmer will be literally swimming in food.

Not if they removed the ability to multiply seeds.[...]

For A16 I made a mod (see caveat later) that removed the geometric progression by making the seeds very scarce but a planted seed give food in an endless cycle. Removed the need to replant seeds and just gave a constant supply of food contingent on the number of seeds you have found in the game. Eventually you would be swimming in food too, but the progression would have been in step with your general power curve.

Sadly I didn't get it to work correctly in A16, I hope for the improvements of A17 to make this possible.

I also think in A17 it should be easy for the seeds to have a regrow limit or chance to spoil so farming really would need you to regularly find new seeds to keep your garden from shrinking.

 

[Shiana]

I see a problem how are we going to farm bones and fat now when need bones for shives and glue, and fat for fuel and talow

It seems that there are now special loot containers in pois that contain fat and bone. But i guess no one thought about people that play with loot-respawn off. Those now have a problem getting glue and fuel in later stages of the game, or in stages when its unbalanced. (invested in non-combat perks, and can only fight outside of the pois)

 

[LuckyStar]

So if we're talking about nerfing food production,

....does that mean Player-owned Colonies have been scrapped?

Lowering supply is not the only route here.

Increasing demand is another.

Okay so spoilage takes care of early game.... but couldn't late game have challenges as well?

I rather like the idea of having to keep a dozen people fed and safe.

I'm really hoping Colonies aren't completely off the table.