ALEXZANDER
Scavenger
Tried, not impressed
Night Visual are VERY CHEAP
- Thread starter Falcoeagle
- Start date
Ok, I seem to have misread your paraphrah. And my group does not consist of absolute noobs. We can easily dispatch normal zombies in daylight.
But on the other hand you seem to assume I am talking only about players who are new to gaming at all. But when we are talking about night, we are not talking about normal zombies walking. At night these same zombies run or jog and that makes a big difference. And they have more HP. And even on day one there are ferals as well if I am not mistaken. I don't need to conjure up players who just bought their fitrst PC ever or grandma. Even players who played some open world games before might have very serious problems in 7d2d in pitch black night and might decide that the night is supposed to be used to wait and sort inventories.
I started a new game with a friend on sunday. We played to day 6 and no headlight turned up anywhere. Torches mean you can't use a weapon at the same time unless you continually put them on walls and take them off again (or produce a lot to leave them everywhere). Also any light source makes you more visible, though that effect isn't very strong. I agree, IF you find a headlight, and by day 4 the chance is above 50% I'd say, then even a pitch black night becomes manageable, even though you have to suppress the subjective fear to be seen automatically.
So another solution similar to a malfunctioning nvg could be a headlight in the starter pack or as a cheap buy from the trader.
Another solution might be to have the night have different darkness levels like it was in older alphas. Having one in-game hour of absolute darkness may be acceptable for everyone where a whole night is not.
A good point and I'd say that the stronger faster zombies are actually the bigger problem of both. But darkness seems not to be trivial, because not seeing them before they hit you makes a big difference. And since all zombies are stronger and faster even on the first night, this means no gradual learning curve if a newbie tries to go out at night.
I would agree to say that the combination is the killer: Only slow zombies in pitch black night would surely not be a problem. And fast zombies in a not so black night are also manageable as long as you have a safe place in reach or can shoot them from a distance with a bow. But the fact is, we are talking about the killer combination at the moment.
And I don't care much if the zombie kills me more because he is fast or more because he is invisible, the result is the same.
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theFlu
Hunter
My reference to "people dying to day zeds" was merely to show how the principle of "think of the noobs" can be taken too far; nothing more. If I want to call you a scrub, I'll do so in your face - I don't think that would've been a meritorious argument here, though.
Hmm, yes. High-paced combat. I don't think the normies have more HP at night (please correct me if I'm wrong); but ferals are about half the spawns, and those are a proper pain on D1. First time players of the game will likely die. But this isn't a HC game, you lose basically nothing from dying. People use it for a teleport / antibiotic. Dying isn't a failure in the language of the game, it's just a nightmare (woke up in the bedroll and it was just a dream). And D1 deaths, even if you would lose the character .. it's a D1 character. We go agane. Until we do better.
Is this really an unacceptable level of effort? Mechanically it's "grab some cloth, break a couple corpses, craft your torches". Certainly a player unfamiliar with the crafting and the darkness will be ill prepared. But it's a survival game, in part at least. Dying should be on the menu, a staple even. It's a survival horror, to add another of the tags; getting eaten by the creatures of the night should seem like an expected outcome. Wanted even.
Having to, wanting to, light your environment could serve a survival purpose, instead of merely the current cosmetic one. Having your combat ability be limited by the day/night cycle seems fine, to me. You'll just have to prep an area with light. It's slow, but nothing is forcing one to take fights in the night; so it's mostly an achievement to learn it as a player.
This is a level of handholding I disagree with. Can the player not be allowed to learn something, become better at the game at an easy level; or must everything be solved in a starter kit?
The tools for lighting exist on D1, you just have to follow the Tutorial up to "place torch". It's literally in the tutorial, it's a mechanic that's "supposed" to be used. Giving a head light to negate the entire mechanic seems counterproductive.
Note, I don't have any issue with adding a "bad head light" or a "bad NVG", but I'd rather see them added to postpone the proper headlight, giving a progress curve to the problem of lighting. I they're "bad enough", I wouldn't mind them coexisting at the torch tier either, but my "bad enough" means "essentially useless, they exist just to provoke moments of horror when it reliably fails every time you enter combat".
But none of that can even exist if the "problem of lighting" doesn't exist; as per the start of this thread, it doesn't. We'd have to somehow introduce the issue before spending effort in trying to figure out the bestest way to solve it ...
Roland
Community Moderator
Okay, why not? What's the shortcoming of 0% darkness? On my monitor I must use a torch or flashlight or night vision goggles to see anything more than a few meters away outside at night. Interior locations are pitch black and I can't see even my hands or weapon in front of me without a light. What is the outcome you're looking for? As far as I can tell the only thing darker is to turn off your monitor.
Riamus
Hunter
Is there such a notice? I don't remember seeing one. Of course, I don't pay attention to those when they are in games, so it's possible I just ignore it.
If there is a game option to change the brightness (there is), then having a brighter default setting doesn't ruin nights for anyone since they can just turn down the brightness. If you don't think it gets dark enough at 0%, then that's a different argument and having a brighter default setting still doesn't ruin darkness for anyone. They could increase the brightness range and still leave the default the same after all.
Although I agree from my own point of view, I do know a lot of people will try a game for a short time (let's say 1-2 hours) and if the game is too frustrating or too challenging or too whatever, they will give up on it. So even if dying doesn't really matter, it can cause new players to leave the game if it happens to easily. We've seen new players complain about having to sit around doing nothing at night even though anyone who's played the game for even a short time knows that it isn't really a big deal. We've seen new players complain about the infection rates, which are certainly much higher on day 1 because of not having real armor yet. And yet players with more time in the game don't really care about it and mostly consider just a nuisance. I have never died from infection, though I've had it over 75% (I forget exactly how high, but it was at least that) in the early days of me playing this game. Now, I know what to do to deal with it and it's hardly worth noting (as are any other debuffs besides broken or sprained legs -- mainly broken).
The more frustrating things you put into a game for new players to experience in the first few hours they play the game, the more of them will give up and stop playing the game. So having defaults that are less likely to frustrate new players is good, even if they can handle other settings within a relatively short amount of time.
Considering changing settings is very easy and most gamers know how to change settings, it's not hurting anyone to have easy default settings. And as someone pointed out earlier, players seem far more likely to adjust settings to a more difficult level than to an easier level, so it's better to set them lower to keep the more casual players and allow people to increase the settings related to difficulty based on their preferences than to start higher and hope people will try a lower setting if the higher setting is too much for them instead of just giving up.
theFlu
Hunter
I'd advice such a person to stay away from titles with tags of "survival" and "horror", so leaving and refunding would be the right course of action in their case. I get "onboarding", but it shouldn't come at the expense of the core game. The core game currently is bright as day, 24/7. Once you've learned to deal with everything the defaults throw at you, you go and mess with settings, including maybe changing gamma.. which at that point isn't really even an inconvenience. The "scary" of night is never a part of the game, which imo is a loss for it.
People aren't complaining about the nights being scary, they're complaining about being bored having to sit at base - they're driven there by the well visible but overwhelming enemies. If the enemies were weaker (say, no ferals, just runners), but harder to spot (actually dark), the difficulty would be similar and more fitting for a horror title. They'd be "needlessly" scared, instead of actually unable to fight.
The lack of a good setup system for darkness basically takes darkness out of the game. Having new players start to self-impose This as a "challenge" instead of default is imo robbing them of an experience. So, it's hurting everyone, as you can only be terrified by nothing once
Some defaults are great at low difficulty; but not all.
Riamus
Hunter
I did suggest earlier that it be a popup when loading the game for the first time just like many other games do for gamma. That lets people set it to what they prefer. Left side barely visible to equal what the devs feel is appropriate, more visible if you know you don't like things being harder to see, and invisible if you prefer things being very difficult to see. I think a lot of players understand that concept these days as those popups are common in multiple genres these days. And it would also remind people that they can change that later if they don't like where it is at.
4sheetzngeegles
Hunter
In regard to entity Speed these are the choices:
1 walk, 0%
2 jog, 25%
3 run, 50%
4 sprint, 75%
5 nightmare, 100%
increasing in intensity to a perceptual max, numerically it can be
assigned 100%.
Each of these also has the additional option to be fine tuned
for Day Night Feral and Blood Moon.
In regard to difficulty there are 7 choices 6 are standard in-game presets:
1 is a manual choice.
1 Scavenger: easiest setting designed for Noobs. 0%
2 Adventurer: Not just a new recruit any more. 20%
3 Nomad: Designed for the experienced FPS players. 40%
4 Warrior: Now you are starting to impress! 60%
5 Survivalist: Kids, don't try this at home. 80%
6 Insane: You're one brave Mother!.......100%
7 Mod it yourself for a personal variation.
Again a perceptual 100% challenge
Very reminiscent of doom menu,
1 I'm too young to die
2 Hey, Not too rough
3 Hurt me plenty
4 Ultra_Violence
5 Nightmare!
Darkness: Is considered an inverse of the above. The difference is
0 in game does not render naught, or the absence of light. As a balance,
"expectations have been Preset by TFP in the menu" from White Zombie to World War Z.
And set the lighting to Warm Bodies.
It has nothing to do with logic, it has to do with perception, and individuals
perceive things as individuals. If you are offering a literal challenge in the
menu selections, it would follow that some individuals would expect that for the
full spectrum of options.
The effect would be similar: To being invited to play an intense game of baseball, showing up
and finding you and the other players are in full contact gear and playing Tee-ball with a
Whiffle bat. Perception.
I just use option 7, and mod randomness for my poptops. I would have change the title of the
post to "Lighting feels unbalanced when compared to Intensity".
1 walk, 0%
2 jog, 25%
3 run, 50%
4 sprint, 75%
5 nightmare, 100%
increasing in intensity to a perceptual max, numerically it can be
assigned 100%.
Each of these also has the additional option to be fine tuned
for Day Night Feral and Blood Moon.
In regard to difficulty there are 7 choices 6 are standard in-game presets:
1 is a manual choice.
1 Scavenger: easiest setting designed for Noobs. 0%
2 Adventurer: Not just a new recruit any more. 20%
3 Nomad: Designed for the experienced FPS players. 40%
4 Warrior: Now you are starting to impress! 60%
5 Survivalist: Kids, don't try this at home. 80%
6 Insane: You're one brave Mother!.......100%
7 Mod it yourself for a personal variation.
Again a perceptual 100% challenge
Very reminiscent of doom menu,
1 I'm too young to die
2 Hey, Not too rough
3 Hurt me plenty
4 Ultra_Violence
5 Nightmare!
Darkness: Is considered an inverse of the above. The difference is
0 in game does not render naught, or the absence of light. As a balance,
"expectations have been Preset by TFP in the menu" from White Zombie to World War Z.
And set the lighting to Warm Bodies.
It has nothing to do with logic, it has to do with perception, and individuals
perceive things as individuals. If you are offering a literal challenge in the
menu selections, it would follow that some individuals would expect that for the
full spectrum of options.
The effect would be similar: To being invited to play an intense game of baseball, showing up
and finding you and the other players are in full contact gear and playing Tee-ball with a
Whiffle bat. Perception.
I just use option 7, and mod randomness for my poptops. I would have change the title of the
post to "Lighting feels unbalanced when compared to Intensity".
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ALEXZANDER
Scavenger
Because....Not?
Roland
Community Moderator
Got it. You’re just here to complain and not provide actual constructive feedback.
In the same vein I asked about my group being scrubs, to show that if my group has qualms about going out at night, so would new players, even those better trained than grandmas.
Learning that dieing isn't harmful is clouded by emotions and knowledge of other games where it matters, and naturally reality. I would guess a lot of people need lots of dieing to get into a state where it doesn't give a shock or where they even use death as a tool. Players of dark souls games and roguelikes would be an exception naturally. And everyone who watches hours of videos about the game before even playing the first time.
I myself try to play every game almost as if death was really final (even though it isn't). Dieing in my single player game often makes me stop playing because I feel anger and disappointment. I never take it lightly, despite any knowledge that it objectively doesn't matter much.
If you just want to cut some trees around the base then getting the materials for a few torches is easy (if you already know enough of the game to know that that is a worthwile activity, i.e. likely not new players). But if you want to go farther away to collect trash, hunt for animals or do stuff in a POI you cleared by day then producing enough torches is (IMHO) quite some work.
Correct, doing stuff directly around the house is acceptable. And helps in early game, but all of this info is something veterans find out in the long run. Nothing of that will be known by a new player.
I think the tutorial is there so you can light your base itself. Because on some screens the night and interiors are still dark. Another option would be to have any handholding (light level default and/or starter kit) only on default difficulty and below. But lets face it: All of the very correct stuff you say why nights aren't that scary are things veterans know. New players will scrap along at minimum, have nearly no water and food and trying to get food get infections and low health instead, or dieing, and sometimes dieing in a death loop because they try to get their backpack immediately again. And I disagree that only scrubs who just started playing games at all would do this. I've even seen a veteran of this game do this.
Note, I don't have any issue with adding a "bad head light" or a "bad NVG", but I'd rather see them added to postpone the proper headlight, giving a progress curve to the problem of lighting. I they're "bad enough", I wouldn't mind them coexisting at the torch tier either, but my "bad enough" means "essentially useless, they exist just to provoke moments of horror when it reliably fails every time you enter combat".
But none of that can even exist if the "problem of lighting" doesn't exist; as per the start of this thread, it doesn't. We'd have to somehow introduce the issue before spending effort in trying to figure out the bestest way to solve it ...
Different screens, different settings of those screens, I don't know. On my TV screen (where I am playing the game) nights are still dark but far from pitch black. I even have to turn on lights in the burned biome when I clear POIs, even in the daytime.
I still remember alpha15 when it was really pitch black at night. I would not mind if that happened an hour at night, and could cope if it happened all night. But I am a veteran, I can handle this with all the knowledge I already have about the game. But if TFP wants more than only new players drifting in from dark souls and pure horror games they need to make the "entrance fee" easier than that.
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Riamus
Hunter
Let's put it this way regarding torches... they are not really worth using in this game for anything other than lighting your base. Sure, you can keep dropping and placing torches over and over again in a POI to clear it, but I'd be surprised if anyone actually wants to do that. Since you can't hold a torch and a weapon at the same time, they are pretty much useless. At least to me, and I think to most players. It doesn't really benefit me much if I have to switch to a torch to see where something is, then switch to a tool to scrap that item and not be able to see while doing so and then back to a torch to see and then to a weapon to fight while not being able to see, and so on.
I keep the brightness lowered to 20%. It's not pitch black, but there are plenty of places in POI where I can't see things more than a slightly different shade of dark gray. Without light, I miss seeing a lot of things. Even so, I wouldn't ever bother with torches anywhere other than my base. I live with the lack of light until I can find a helmet light or a fire mod for my spear. Both end up being things that I'm looking for early in the game to make it not so dark. There's also the weapon light mod, but I rarely find that early in the game and I'm not sure that I've ever actually used it.
theFlu
Hunter
I think there's two things there; first, if you can see fine without them, they'll be obviously useless. If it's pitch black and they're your only source of portable light, they're immediately very useful.
Second, their current functionality is rather poor. Trying to place them between all the half block walls and all of the debris is not a good experience; that should probably be improved regardless of other changes. Maybe making them into entities, sorta like placing a motorcycle so they can stick to basically anything. Might make them a lot more pleasant.
I wouldn't straight up give them "as an offhand", without making a whole system of dual-wielding and two-handers where it would be a choice between a torch and a sledge; or some such. Being able to "just have one passively" would again just remove some of the progression.
ALEXZANDER
Scavenger
Its great that you got it!
If i said i am not impressed - it means that its bad or not enough
Not enough what? What is lacking using this setting?
theFlu
Hunter
Good. Add some Good, gdmnit!
Falcoeagle
Refugee
Game need thrilling darker visually at night.
I agree not a full darkness, more reduce a blight better. it should be add to preset and game mode, i suggest add preview a pic to what preset will affect make visually change at night. It should be based as real life of
life
Another suggest, And add watch count down alarm warning before night 30 min ago. this pic is Majora's mask count down.
I agree not a full darkness, more reduce a blight better. it should be add to preset and game mode, i suggest add preview a pic to what preset will affect make visually change at night. It should be based as real life of
life
Another suggest, And add watch count down alarm warning before night 30 min ago. this pic is Majora's mask count down.
Riamus
Hunter
Ugh! Sounds like I'll be using a variety of new mods. Unless you're just not giving enough detail to make it sounds even remotely worthwhile. It's one thing to have to find clothing to compensate for temperature.... but they removed clothing. We could use mods for the armor to compensate for temperature, and I could be fine with that so long as I don't have to constantly swap mods when temperature changes. I'd even be fine with dropping a campfire somewhere if I'm not protected from the cold through use of clothing (again, no longer an option) or armor mods to warm up. But if carrying a torch everywhere ends up being necessary, that isn't a good thing to me. You can't carry it while using a weapon. Having to pick them up and put them down everywhere is a pain. I suppose using one as a temporary heat source once in a while like I said above with a campfire would be acceptable, but I'd rather just do a campfire. I always have stone with me. I can make one easily without extra effort. On the other hand, if I want to use a torch, I have to either use an inventory spot for it or else use 2 for the cloth and animal fat, none of which I normally carry unless I've happened to loot or scavenge it. Cloth might not be too unusual to be carrying for that reason, but I rarely have animal fat with me. So it's still an extra inventory spot compared to no extra spot for the stones to craft a campfire. And even if I didn't carry stones, you can get the stones VERY quickly pretty much anywhere on the map.
Anyhow, maybe it's just the lack of detail that makes me not like the sounds of it. We'll see how it is actually implemented. I'm fine with torches as a heat source. Being able to walk up next to ones that you find in POI to warm up is fine. I just don't see value in needing to carry them around.
If it's pitch black, you obviously have to use whatever you have available for lighting unless you don't do anything in the dark. As I said, I use 20% brightness. That makes things just slightly different shades of dark gray in interior locations without light sources. That's enough that you can't easily see what you're trying to see (loot, etc.) and can easily miss things. With that level of brightness, I'd easily choose to potentially miss things rather than bother with placing torches everywhere or having to swap back and forth to a torch just to see things temporarily. Others may be fine with that, but it has no value for me. I wait until I have a helmet light mod or a fire mod for my spear. At least one of those usually happens within a few days, sometimes even on day 1. On rare occasions, it might take longer, but I still wouldn't choose to mess with a torch. Just my preference.
If you can't state WHY it is bad so that people can understand your point of view, then people will just ignore what you say. I can say that I don't think X is good in the game, but if I don't say why, it's a meaningless statement. It's one thing to not give the "why" initially, but if people ask and you refuse to give a reason, then it's not much better than trolling and you aren't likely to see any changes made to the game to improve it for you unless someone else is willing to say why.
As has been pointed out multiple times, if you lower brightness, it will get very dark in POI. I asked you this before... have you tried lowering it to 0% to see how it looks? If that is still not dark enough, explain why so people can understand why you think the current choices aren't enough.
As far as a countdown... you already have a clock. And there's little reason to avoid the night, so why would you need an alarm?