PC New player, here what I think
- Thread starter diegodgo87
- Start date
Lemmers
New member
This sounds like a good idea, if the player wants an early T1 gun and some ammo. But depending on the POI, some can be cheesed easily by building up to the loot rooms. The new meta might be climbing the outside of a factory to open the big chest on the roof for a Day 1 gun, or digging in the exact spot to end up in a military bunker loot room with zero enemy encounters.
Dynamic pathing would be great. It's one of the features that makes Left 4 Dead 2 so replayable, even though it's criminally underused.
The way I was thinking it would work is 7days spawns the prefab BurntHouse and it picks a random variant like BurntHouse_C. Then later you get a quest and it respawns as BurntHouse_A with different hallways blocked, loot rooms, traps, etc. like you said. It would take dev time to physically remap each variant to make it different, but if you're only changing 10% of the POI then it's already 90% finished. It would also help when quests use the same building over and over again, maybe because it's just the closest one and players keep picking it.
Doing this to small houses is pretty trivial... but modifying giant skyscrapers could be a huge task. All this would be worth it if they had the time, but there's so many other features that are more important right now.
Roland
Community Moderator
Viktoriusiii said:a new player that is asking for more lategame content? Quel surprise!
But... but he is not representative of all new players! Yes! Yes that's it. He was just too hardcore with his friends. Next time don't be so gud and rush to the endgame!
Vik, YOU were the one who said this on behalf of imaginary people in the second post of the thread. And then even though not a single person accused the OP of being too hardcore you try and say the people said it when nobody said it except you saying it and then blaming me.
I didn't even call you hardcore. I said that you seem to speed through the game in reaction to your own admission to being basically done and set by Day 7 and then the rest of the days are just boring rinse and repeat because there is no new content to keep you interested. I also suggested that even if new content was added you would probably thoroughly experience it within 10 hours or so and then become unsatisfied once again looking for the next new content fix that would cater to your particular needs of having already spent 1000+ hours with this game.
To the new player I simply say that it is fun to start over and make adjustments to the perks you buy, to the game settings, and to your defense designs. Do it all differently than you did the first time and you will get another fun chunk of hours until you reach the point once again where you've obviously conquered and then you can do it all again and you will come to love those first days or weeks where you feel vulnerable again. Once bandits are in I think there will be a second phase of the game where you feel vulnerable again but even that eventually you will surpass and overcome and you'll want to start over again...or not. Once you reach the 1000+ hour mark you'll come to the very natural and normal point where you can't get enough or you feel burned out and are ready to move on to a new game. A lot of people have had the experience of taking a break for a year or more and then coming back to play and it feels fresh and fun once again. Hope that is you and your group.
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Liesel Weppen
New member
Yes, you can still cheese that way based on how it is currently done.
The difference is, that those POIs should be harder, so even if you nerdpole up to the roof of a skyscraper on day 1, there will be vultures and cops, nevermind your gamestage is still zero. You can try it with your starter bow and you may even survive and get the weapon.
Still not mentioned that a skyscraper only occurs in cities and as i said cities should be harder too. With player level 0 on day 1 you may not even reach the skyscraper, because you wouldn't survive the way through the city without any better equipment.
Also the military base. You may dig down to the room with the 5 safes, but there spawn at least 3 military zeds in this room as you enter. And dealing with 3 militarys just with the starter bow and a wodden club is hard. Doable maybe, but the player then still took the decision to take the risk just for getting a weapon.
If a POI has a lootroom that can be reached by digging straight down and not even some Zs spawn in that lootroom, the POI has a bad design. Or maybe it is even intended, then the POI should not have that good loot.
That is a common problem of all voxel based games. Because you can modify every block you can always take shortcuts or circumvent some stuff. Doing dungeon POIss (even if it is a trader quest) and really follow the path is always absolutely voluntary. If somebody doesn't want to do it that way, he just breaks a wall and can skip half of the dungeon instantly.
And as always: Even if a specific mechanic can be cheesed somehow, so be it. If players decide to cheese, let them ruin their own gaming experience.
Boidster
New member
In game with a fully-destructible world where the game freely gives you the tools to destroy anything, there is no cheese, ffs. There are incentives and disincentives and different players will be motivated differently. Nobody else gets to tell you what "ruins your gaming experience" any more than someone can tell you what "ruins the taste of your food". If you enjoy it, everybody else can get bent. There is no One True Play Style.
If the devs want to add disincentives to placing ladders on buildings, or busting through locked doors, let them. The game world in that case has changed and the player can make different decisions based on the new rules, if they choose.
If the devs want to add disincentives to placing ladders on buildings, or busting through locked doors, let them. The game world in that case has changed and the player can make different decisions based on the new rules, if they choose.
And what happens after you have memorized burnt house 2 and burnt house 3? How many hours will it take before you've seen all the POIs again and it becomes a boring grind? If you just want a crapload of new POIs, load up compopack. It's got a hotel in the shape of a snake!
JCrook1028
New member
Also realize there are 50 new POI's coming in A19 and more that have been retouched. Also realize when the game goes Gold and Steam Workshop is implemented there will be thousands of POI's available for addition to the game...
Viktoriusiii
New member
every time semantics. Gotta love the forums sometimes. Make a general point by providing an example so everyone gets what im talking to. Someone gives a very specific way to disprove that one example, everyone applauds like seals beeing waved some fish.
PS: not only you, sorry for picking on you when I am actually just annoyed at more or less everyone not getting the F%$$&§&ing point and trying to win an argument where there is none.
Boidster
New member
No problem. I am not sure you and I share the same definition of 'semantics', but let me quote the part I was focused on. Maybe you can explain.
So your complaint seems to be that you "see the same 10 houses again" in 7D2D and that other games do it better because things are more random. I'm not sure I agree, but let's stipulate for the sake of argument that other games do it better. And your easy solution is to make POI variants. "Copy the outside, replace the loot, change the path..." and so on.
That is a very specific (and reasonable) suggestion for how to address the problem (or at least one of the problems) you see with 7D2D. My counter-point is that I don't think your solution really solves the problem so much as it extends the time before the problem surfaces by several, maybe dozens, of hours. Eventually, though, you and I and all of the other high-hours players would again be used to the new, copied-but-different POIs, wouldn't we? "Oh, the hidden wall panel is empty, that means the loot is in the 2nd bedroom upstairs!" That sort of thing. (I am not good enough to memorize details like that, but I think you probably are. I'm too Leeroy Jenkins in POIs to take note!
)How does your solution - variants of existing POIs - solve your concern? Any more than the 50 new POIs in A19 will? Or even the 200+ in Compopack? Eventually you'll see every POI, every variant.
Viktoriusiii
New member
the problem is how they design the new pois. The old ones are totally fine. The "dungeon-y" ones are the problem.
A normal poi doesn't need to change. It can be the same old without every getting too boring, as long as there are enough of them.
With the new dungeon-type styles, if you have done them once, you know:
-where the traps are
-how to maneuver through it
-where the best loot is
So all 3 aspects of those new pois that are meant to bring a bit of excitement into it are gone after doing them ONCE.
You know where the secret exit tunnel is of that one huge poi. You know that you can simply frame up one side and grab the loot and go
And even if you are on a quest to get rid of all zombies you still know all the dangers of that poi.
This is massively different to a "normal" poi without layers.
Since the loot is evenly spread, you have no incentive to "cheese" it. And since it is only a short stop before you go on to the next poi it isn't really a dealbreaker that you have been in this same poi twice.
Now if you need to go through the same dungeonlayout-poi three times, you just sigh out of frustration.
You still know all the dangers, but it will still take you ages. And if you want to get that nice brass you go through it 6 times.
It is the fact that they create something that is meant to be fun and exciting, but ends up a drag because you need to do the same @%$*#! 6 times.
If I loot one of the early pois, I spend like a minute in it. In, kill zombies, loot, out.
If I loot these dungeon ones (if we leave out the exploity lootroom thing) I need to go in, crawl around that floor trap (that was super exciting the first time) then need to shoot the cupboard because there is zombies in there, then I need to kite a sprinter around the tight corridors back to the beginning, then I need to go back, climb through a hole in the wall on the other side, sneak because I know there is a dog over there, get inside, break one block so that i can kill those two zombies that came from behind the last time, go up, see two ferals, need to kite them out again... you see what I mean?
small rant incoming that doesnt add to the point:
And all that time is... ok. It is not the worst thing. But it could be so much more! If every dungeonpoi could have random traps and random paths it would already be 10x better. If they now do what that mod you(?) mentioned did and increase the number of pois, then suddenly I cannot remember 500 poi positions. It stays an adventure every time I do it. And it is really not hard to make pois. Its a 30 minute affair... 2 hours if you really want it to be good and 4 if oyu use some devblock combinations to create a shower that would ussually not be possible.
diegodgo87
New member
Hey guys! OP here, let me tell you about a story, around day 16-17 one friend and I took our motorcycles and go check the big city in the desert, then we saw the tallest building ever (I don't know how many floors have but there are many), by the time we enter the building was noon, by night still more than half building to cover, our options? stay quiet in a dark corner till morning or keep clearing the building, we opt for the second and we keep climbing, at the night of the other day (yeah took all day cover the building) we got to the roof, just to find lots of zombies, and when I said lots means so many, bikers, irradiated zombies and we run out of ammo, my friend got surrounded and killed, I run down like 3 floors in matter of seconds, patching me up, turn around and the horde is few feet away from me I manage to jump to another side of the building and stay there, in the dark, alone and without any kind of ammo or weapon for that matter. My friend tell me that there is no ammo left in the base, the motorcycle is miles away just at the entrance of the building, so he takes a bike and start pedal in the middle of the night just with a Junk turret and 1000 iron...
I stay at the top of the tower till my friend return and kill the remaining zombies with a junk turret, since many years a game doesn't make me feel this way, as i said before the first 3 weeks of the game were awesome, we have to really "survive" the game, hell we have to work the whole week just to horde night and that wasn't enough.
By day 35 we had lots of ammo, lots of concrete, junk turrets, SMG turrets, an underground base at bedrock with underground garage for all the vehicles and a helipad for the gyroscope... didn't get the same feeling when crouching in a dark corner for fear to be eaten alive.
Edit: English is not my native language and took me around 30 minutes write this down, please be supportive.
I stay at the top of the tower till my friend return and kill the remaining zombies with a junk turret, since many years a game doesn't make me feel this way, as i said before the first 3 weeks of the game were awesome, we have to really "survive" the game, hell we have to work the whole week just to horde night and that wasn't enough.
By day 35 we had lots of ammo, lots of concrete, junk turrets, SMG turrets, an underground base at bedrock with underground garage for all the vehicles and a helipad for the gyroscope... didn't get the same feeling when crouching in a dark corner for fear to be eaten alive.
Edit: English is not my native language and took me around 30 minutes write this down, please be supportive.
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hiemfire
New member
@diegodgo87
Sounds like you found Dishong Tower. Took my wife and I almost 3 game days to clear it when we did it, though we tend to take our time and loot/scavenge everything not nailed down. For us it was allot of me luring the zombies into prepared firing lines (her with M60 and my 2 junk turrets) and me back tracking to pop the stray screamer (finally started having them show up while we clear POIs) or wandering horde as it filed up the stairs (stopped having to worry about them too much after we were about 2/3rds of the way up the skyscraper). It's great you and your friend are enjoying the game.
Sounds like you found Dishong Tower. Took my wife and I almost 3 game days to clear it when we did it, though we tend to take our time and loot/scavenge everything not nailed down. For us it was allot of me luring the zombies into prepared firing lines (her with M60 and my 2 junk turrets) and me back tracking to pop the stray screamer (finally started having them show up while we clear POIs) or wandering horde as it filed up the stairs (stopped having to worry about them too much after we were about 2/3rds of the way up the skyscraper). It's great you and your friend are enjoying the game.
Aldranon
New member
I would say there are at least five major games in 7D2D:
One for each attribute focus, which really makes a big difference when you try them.
Then of course you have about a thousand "hybrid" builds...
Also making more (or less) realistic BM forts (if any!) change things quite a bit.
Boredom, in a flexible game, is in part to the inflexible play-style of the player.
One for each attribute focus, which really makes a big difference when you try them.
Then of course you have about a thousand "hybrid" builds...
Also making more (or less) realistic BM forts (if any!) change things quite a bit.
Boredom, in a flexible game, is in part to the inflexible play-style of the player.
Liesel Weppen
New member
But in this POIs is no "good" loot, you usually don't find messiah boxes, weapon bags and such stuff. On the other hand this loot would be to good to get it in a random poi within a minute.
You're right, even if the spawn points of enemies somteimes vary even in these dungeon pois. There is not always a sleeper in this cupboard. And the dog is not there all the time, or there might be even two. But that also depends on the POI, there are indeed some, that are always exactly the same.
Imho the dungeon design is not the best, as i already stated in a previous post. The main loot should be somewhere in it's middle, so that it can not be poled up or digged down directly. E.g. for the skyscrapers, you don't even need to pole. I also dropped myself from a gyrocopter directly onto the rood. Is this still cheesing? I mean, you have a flying vehicle?!
Usually once we know specific dungeon pois by heart we usually don't follow the path all the time, however we usually don't cheese to the end loot, too.
So you mean, they should generate POIs procedurally too? Especially the dungeon POIs?
Yeah that would be really nice, however it is really @%$*#!ing hard to make procedural algorithms to create such stuff, that is still wokring. I haven't seen any game yet, that manages to get this done well. Basically every game i know that tried this used a set of premade parts/rooms/floors to assemble a house. That premade parts are still limited and once you know all the parts, the dynamic generated houses become predictive too.
Did you already try a map with compopack? I know it also contains just "normal" POIs and further dungeon POIs, but it adds a lot of them. Additionally maybe use nitrogen instead of the RWG. Nitrogen distributes the different POIs more evenly than the RWG so you get a better variety.
RWG is somehow crap in A18. I played like 5 different maps in A18 and generated and explored (in god mode) like 20 further and not a single one even had one skyscraper... I even managed to get a 4K map without one single bookstore.
Noctoras
New member
a long story, but a VERY good point: If loot was just distributed more randomly (no fixed loot rooms), the game would be much more of a challenge again. It would solve the nerdpoling issue for the most part as well without having to abandon nerdpoling itself.
diegodgo87
New member
Yeah, we are four, but we split tasks for better efficiency, can't ask to the INT guy who is Forging, mixing and doing stuff to come to rescue me, neither the one guy with an auger in the bottom of the mine, and looting is always a job of two people, with the rule "leave no man behind"@diegodgo87
Sounds like you found Dishong Tower. Took my wife and I almost 3 game days to clear it when we did it, though we tend to take our time and loot/scavenge everything not nailed down. For us it was allot of me luring the zombies into prepared firing lines (her with M60 and my 2 junk turrets) and me back tracking to pop the stray screamer (finally started having them show up while we clear POIs) or wandering horde as it filed up the stairs (stopped having to worry about them too much after we were about 2/3rds of the way up the skyscraper). It's great you and your friend are enjoying the game.
Kosmic Kerman
New member
diegodgo87
New member
90 minutes, is what the streamer I saw recommended for new players, but right now the days are too long, with the vehicles I can be anywhere in few minutes and run many trader missions, Blood Moon takes too long we only can play at weekends
When A19 land will be setting in 60 minutes, and in another difficult.
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
RipClaw
Well-known member
Multiplayer is always a bit different than single player in terms of progress. In a group the members can specialize. A single player has to spread out his points.
That's why you have everything earlier and it gets boring faster.
By the way, I like the Grand Spartan rule better: "Every man for himself".
This is much more entertaining when you watch the streams.
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If you want more depth to the game - I cannot recommend enough the mod Darkness Falls..
4 different types of forge.
Scrap iron, Iron, Steel & Titanium grade tools.
Different classes to choose from - each with their own set of starter quests.
Traders that are not indestructible and have guard NPC's - you can set up your base inside one...
Lots of different vehicles.
Many new weapons. (Coil Rifle oh how I love thee!)
Major increase in Zombies and nights are dangerous again..
Very indepth food/farming system.
Titanium, Plutonium and Uranium Ores which can only be mined in full hazmat gear.
Plus many many other things - including an endgame......
Completely revitalised the whole game for me and my mates. Its a bit tricky to set up a private server but it can be done.
4 different types of forge.
Scrap iron, Iron, Steel & Titanium grade tools.
Different classes to choose from - each with their own set of starter quests.
Traders that are not indestructible and have guard NPC's - you can set up your base inside one...
Lots of different vehicles.
Many new weapons. (Coil Rifle oh how I love thee!)
Major increase in Zombies and nights are dangerous again..
Very indepth food/farming system.
Titanium, Plutonium and Uranium Ores which can only be mined in full hazmat gear.
Plus many many other things - including an endgame......
Completely revitalised the whole game for me and my mates. Its a bit tricky to set up a private server but it can be done.