PC New player, here what I think

[diegodgo87]

My preferred goal is to become overpowered, and once i am, the game is over. The way to getting overpowered is what makes my fun. And of course then playing a little further as overpowered. Doesn't matter if playing Path of Exile, Borderlands, Minecraft or Fallout, once there is a way to make your char better in form of skills or euipment, i want to become overpowered. If the enemies become better in the same speed as my char becomes better, i feel no progression anymore. That is just moving status quo. And that doesn't make fun (for me atleast).

That's exactly what happens to us in Path of Exile, we were at a point that we reached overpowered level within few days, obtaining 36 challenges in 10 days, defeating endgame bosses at day 4, we were playing 15 days from 3 months leagues... Of course playing 6 years the same game will eventually end up in that, hope PoE2 shift things a bit.

 

[Roland]

I believe a game can be about the climb up the progression arc and basically be done once that is achieved. People will always want a new challenge. People who complain now say they will be happy once endgame bandits and endgame "The Duke" are added to the game. But they won't be. They'll progress in power to overcome those foes and then no longer view bandits and their leader as end game. They will just call them the new midgame and start clammoring for a new higher endgame. Anything new and more powerful TFP adds will get devoured by these players within a week and then like little baby birds in the nest they will start chirping for more..more..more.

The true fun of this game is starting over and going through the progress again and again. It's funny that most people who complain about the game only having 70 hrs of content actually have 100's or 1000's of hours of playtime and that is because the true game is the journey from Day 1 until you overcome. That is the point and just because there is no canned story to complete and see the words, "The End" followed by a credit roll doesn't mean that progressing was just a pointless exercise. 

There are a slew of strategy boardgames that are completely about building an engine that produces victory points and just as you get that engine going the game ends because someone satisfies the victory conditions. Why do these games end just as things start getting good? Because game designers know that once you've reached that point of success things just become boring and repetitive. But that doesn't make the game worthless to play and indeed you always set up and play a new game to try to reach that success point perhaps using new strategies. I view 7 Days to Die the same way. It is fun getting to whatever day it is you feel that you have won the progression climb. Then you start over again and try a different strategy or different settings.

It's also like sports. You don't need to add a fifth and then a sixth quarter to the end of a football game with tougher challenges to make the game more compelling. The game is fine in its current form and the fun is in the competition and factors that come into play every time you restart a new game playing by the same rules every single time. 7 Days to Die is fun to restart and play through for many many playthroughs and it doesn't need continually tougher and tougher challenges tacked onto the end to extend its life. Those who enjoy it and get 1000s of hours do so because it is a compelling game to experience from the beginning again and again and again.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]

I dislike starting a new game when nothing has changed. That is why I have 1000+ hours, because every alpha changed some stuff... some for the worse, but it was change nontheless.
And what is there to overcome currently? Hordenight? Why? I have Q4 weapons on day 7 and 100+ ammo. There is no challenge in it. And I am playing on insane.
The problem is, that if I set my loot to 25% EVERYTHING takes 25% more time to do. I have less food I have less clothing, I have less incentive to even loot most containers, because it is too low.

They have to descide if they want the game to be a constant pressure (like don't Starve) where every day is a fight for survival (as it was pre ~A14) or if they want you to be farming up stuff to finally get into the endgame (like raiding bandithideouts, conquering small settlements and the like) but currently they have no threats early, you find all that stuff way too soon (so you reach endgame quicker) AND there is no endgame. It's as always very confusing what TFPs actually want... sometimes I don't know if they have an endgoal and why they don't share it, so we can understand some of their weird designchoices.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I dislike starting a new game when nothing has changed. That is why I have 1000+ hours, because every alpha changed some stuff... some for the worse, but it was change nontheless.

Read again. We are talking about FIRST PLAYTHROUGH OF NEW PLAYERS!

And as i said, there are many ways HOW you can change the game easily FOR ANY FURTHER PLAYTHROUGH. From changing settings over self discizipline to up to total conversion mods.

 

[Lemmers]

And what is there to overcome currently? Hordenight? Why? I have Q4 weapons on day 7 and 100+ ammo. There is no challenge in it. And I am playing on insane.
The problem is, that if I set my loot to 25% EVERYTHING takes 25% more time to do. I have less food I have less clothing, I have less incentive to even loot most containers, because it is too low.

I like their idea for A19 that there will be a "Stone Age" period where you won't find guns, other than maybe the blunderbuss. Early and mid game are really the best parts for me, so stretching that out while keeping everything else equal would be a lot of fun.

And once they add late game content like better quests, bandits, survivor settlement management, legendary weapons, I think I'd keep playing a character even further than I do now before burning out.

 

[RipClaw]

I like their idea for A19 that there will be a "Stone Age" period where you won't find guns, other than maybe the blunderbuss. Early and mid game are really the best parts for me, so stretching that out while keeping everything else equal would be a lot of fun.

I prefer the late game but I also think it is good that the progress will be slower. Fighting the first horde with primitive weapons only changes the gameplay. 

 

[meganoth]

I dislike starting a new game when nothing has changed. That is why I have 1000+ hours, because every alpha changed some stuff... some for the worse, but it was change nontheless.
And what is there to overcome currently? Hordenight? Why? I have Q4 weapons on day 7 and 100+ ammo. There is no challenge in it. And I am playing on insane.
The problem is, that if I set my loot to 25% EVERYTHING takes 25% more time to do. I have less food I have less clothing, I have less incentive to even loot most containers, because it is too low.

They have to descide if they want the game to be a constant pressure (like don't Starve) where every day is a fight for survival (as it was pre ~A14) or if they want you to be farming up stuff to finally get into the endgame (like raiding bandithideouts, conquering small settlements and the like) but currently they have no threats early, you find all that stuff way too soon (so you reach endgame quicker) AND there is no endgame. It's as always very confusing what TFPs actually want... sometimes I don't know if they have an endgoal and why they don't share it, so we can understand some of their weird designchoices.

I think they already decided to keep constant pressure that is (sadly for you) very near to beginners level. And since their difficulty settings are very rudimentary in that they just make enemies tougher and speed up progression of enemies but not slowing down the progression of the player it doesn't help you that much to set it to insane.

There will be no endgame that will challenge you because any endgame like bandits will also need to be at a pressure level suitable for beginners and "normal" players.  The only challenge that A19 promises is that you might not have Q4 weapons on day 7 (but since they couldn't rebalance traders yet, it might be just day 10 instead). I would recommend to you to change loot to 50% AND XP to 50%, and refrain from going for loot rooms directly. Maybe that helps. But if you can easily defeat glowy soldiers with bone knifes , nothing, really nothing will help you.

 

[Roland]

I like their idea for A19 that there will be a "Stone Age" period where you won't find guns, other than maybe the blunderbuss. Early and mid game are really the best parts for me, so stretching that out while keeping everything else equal would be a lot of fun.

And once they add late game content like better quests, bandits, survivor settlement management, legendary weapons, I think I'd keep playing a character even further than I do now before burning out.

I am also excited for them to add more and make the journey longer as well. My only point is that people who are playing on insane and consuming all the content by Day 7 are going to devour anything new TFP adds within a day or two and then be back to being dissatisfied. 

One word about A19 is that the trader quest rewards have not been balanced yet for the new tech periods. If you want to fully experience it you will have to sell the quest rewards or scrap them or avoid doing quests because you'll get blue quality crossbows, and green quality Sledgehammers as early quest rewards which far outclass anything you can craft or find in loot just by scavenging. I enjoy questing so I've been scrapping weapons I get for parts so that I can just craft them myself at my current level. That has been enjoyable for me.

 

[FileMachete]

It's also like sports. You don't need to add a fifth and then a sixth quarter to the end of a football game with tougher challenges to make the game more compelling.

"Alright fans! The Fifth quarter's coming up and tonight The Wheel of Wild results are the following;"

"Each team will be allowed to use two real animals of their teams mascot to help defend the Red Zone!"

"This is going to exciting & will give the Red Zone a whole new meaning!"

(anounchers chatting between themselves for color)

"John I have to feel a bit sorry for the Rams here. They're down by 14 and it looks like Chicago has brought -Grizzly- bears with them tonight!"

"You're right Brett, even though those are really large Bighorns the Rams have, most of Chicagos front line are bigger than the rams."

Might make me spring for ESPN :biggrin1:

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I like their idea for A19 that there will be a "Stone Age" period where you won't find guns, other than maybe the blunderbuss. Early and mid game are really the best parts for me, so stretching that out while keeping everything else equal would be a lot of fun.

And once they add late game content like better quests, bandits, survivor settlement management, legendary weapons, I think I'd keep playing a character even further than I do now before burning out.

early game is fun. Especially if you have to work for it.
But I can already see them implementing it in a weird way... like... Day 1 you loot a military base... and there are no guns anywhere. Like... wth?
I would like it much more if cities (with all the big pois) had far more zombies and zombiedogs again, that would slow down progression far enough.

 

[Boidster]

My money is on the Jets.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I am also excited for them to add more and make the journey longer as well. My only point is that people who are playing on insane and consuming all the content by Day 7 are going to devour anything new TFP adds within a day or two and then be back to being dissatisfied.

every flippin time with this argument. Nothing against oyu roland, really. It is just that this argument is more or less the same as "experienced players just rush the game".

I have not gotten enough of the vehicles. I have not gotten enough of electricity (well after 3 alphas its flaws are just too apparent, but I still enjoy it). I haven't gotten enough of doing massive zombie slashing on hordenight.

I HAVE gotten enough of the 3 quests. I have gotten enough of the weaponpart system that is inferior to all the previous iterations. I have gotten enough of looting pois where I know where the stash room is every time. I have gotten enough of foodpoisoning that only ever interacts with itself.

It is almost as if good content stays good and bad content seems good at first because it has a novelty status, but you quickly realize that it has major flaws.


"We" don't "devour" new content. We experience it. And after playing for another 100 hours, we can simply say what works and what doesn't. It only means that it failed the test of longevity and should be tweaked, altered or completely overhauled.

 

[Roland]

every flippin time with this argument. Nothing against oyu roland, really. It is just that this argument is more or less the same as "experienced players just rush the game".

Nothing against you either but I can't help it if you sound like the typical gamer who has played something for several 100 hours and is burned out and wanting more. It is just how you come across. Also when you say you have it all and it is boring from Day 7 that sounds to me like you are rushing the game. Even with the A18 flaw of so many weapons available early on that is pretty fast....way way faster than I can play through to where I feel done. So please forgive me for responding the same way when I read the same thing every flippin time.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I like their idea for A19 that there will be a "Stone Age" period where you won't find guns, other than maybe the blunderbuss. Early and mid game are really the best parts for me, so stretching that out while keeping everything else equal would be a lot of fun.

I agree with the fun part, but i don't like weapons being "timegated".

Imho weapons should only be found in more dangerous areas. Of course that requires first making certain areas more dangerous. But in the end it should be the players decision if he wants to go in e.g. a military camp on day 1 with a wodden club and a T1 bow and 15 arrows and find a weapon there immediately, or if he wants to level up and prepare better first and just go there when he thinks he's ready for it.

Basically it would be the same as levelgating or skillgating. Either you can use weapons only from level 10 up or you need a skill before you can use them. Same, just a bit different.

If a player can "easily" rush such a area on day one, either he is a very good player and wants to rush anyway, or the game/area is still to easy. We usually avoid e.g. military camps/bases early, as the military zeds are really hard in the beginning. And if it is done like this, you won't find a weapon in any abandoned house in the middle of nowhere on day one and then can easily go into a military on day 2 and find even better weapons on day 2 easily.

And areas with higher difficulty preferably are not just on a single POI level. E.g. cities in generall should be harder (maybe bigger cities are even harder than smaller cities) and the POIs should add difficulty on top of that.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Nothing against you either but I can't help it if you sound like the typical gamer who has played something for several 100 hours and is burned out and wanting more. It is just how you come across. Also when you say you have it all and it is boring from Day 7 that sounds to me like you are rushing the game. Even with the A18 flaw of so many weapons available early on that is pretty fast....way way faster than I can play through to where I feel done. So please forgive me for responding the same way when I read the same thing every flippin time.

I have played Ark for 1500 hours... don't have the same complaint there.
I have played Skyrim for 900 (probably more since I had an... unofficial version for the first year) hours and the only reason I restart is to start another character from scratch, not because there is nothing to do.
I have played eco for 400 hours and there is still always stuff to do.
I have played Rimworld for 500 hours (to be fair with mods... but I play it for the basegame, the mods just make some small adjustments)

It is not the duration that you have played the game. It is if the mechanic can stand against rigerous testing after the novelty has worn off.

Let me give you an example:
You have an open world sandbox survival game that can procedually create a world so it is fresh every time.
And yet every house is the same every time. I know every trap, every lootroom every little detail after I cleared it once.
"Well how is that bad, all the other games do it too" because the other games don't do it like this. Because there loot is always random or its not procedual or...
What I mean is, that 7d2d has this absolute beauty of feeling like a whole new world every time you boot it up... until you see the same 10 houses again.
Easy solution: Make variants! Copy the outside, replace the loot, change the path you have to go through and put the traps somewhere else.
While there is a boundary for items as far as I remember, there should not be a limit to how many prefabs you can save and integrate in a world.
Just name them burnt house 1, burnt house 2, burnt house 3; and already it feels different.

If you want to be totally fancy, but I'm not sure how hard that would be: make certain areas "trappable" and mark certain rooms as "lootrooms" and let the worldgenerator randomise it every time. This way I would never be bored looting a house, since it would never quite be the same...


This is only one example and oyu don't have to tell me exactly why it doesn't work, because that is semantics. My point beeing, that you have awesome mechanics that get implemented contradictary to it's intended purpose. Quests are meant to give you something to do but are often worthless (except for the poi reset) and give oyu 3 variants which are basicially 2 (dig and clear). Pois are meants to be dangerous but are repeating. Food poisoning is meant to discourage worse food, but all it does is make you click the eat button more since you have near endless low foods.
The ideas are great, but they do not withstand the test of time, even though they should.

It is not the players fault for playing a sandbox game for a long period of time. It is the devs job to ensure that an open world sandbox game does not get boring after 50 hours.
 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I have played Ark for 1500 hours... don't have the same complaint there.
I have played Skyrim for 900 (probably more since I had an... unofficial version for the first year) hours and the only reason I restart is to start another character from scratch, not because there is nothing to do.
I have played eco for 400 hours and there is still always stuff to do.
I have played Rimworld for 500 hours (to be fair with mods... but I play it for the basegame, the mods just make some small adjustments)

I've only ~500h in ARK, and far less motiviation to play again then after 650h of 7d2d. I have even just ~200h in Empyrion... but that's mostly of bugs that make the game somehow unplayable for me. I have ~400h in Rimworld recorded by steam. No idea how much i played already with the pre-steam-version. And i still used mods in the pre-steam version and i wouldn't play it anymore without mods.

I already refused playing Conan, Raft and Eco, because it sounds just like "more of the same, different, but still same".

Especially ARK is imho one of the worst examples. With DEFAULT settings imho the game is completely unplayable, maybe only playable on a real MMO-Server with 100s of players from each timezones.

"Well how is that bad, all the other games do it too" because the other games don't do it like this. Because there loot is always random or its not procedual or...
What I mean is, that 7d2d has this absolute beauty of feeling like a whole new world every time you boot it up... until you see the same 10 houses again.
Easy solution: Make variants! Copy the outside, replace the loot, change the path you have to go through and put the traps somewhere else.

Applies in the same way to all the other games. ARK doesn't even have random maps. In rimworld all the events are always the same.

This is only one example and oyu don't have to tell me exactly why it doesn't work, because that is semantics. My point beeing, that you have awesome mechanics that get implemented contradictary to it's intended purpose. Quests are meant to give you something to do but are often worthless (except for the poi reset) and give oyu 3 variants which are basicially 2 (dig and clear). Pois are meants to be dangerous but are repeating. Food poisoning is meant to discourage worse food, but all it does is make you click the eat button more since you have near endless low foods.

Also applies to all the other games you mentioned.

It is not the players fault for playing a sandbox game for a long period of time. It is the devs job to ensure that an open world sandbox game does not get boring after 50 hours.

Imho the problem with all those games is, that it requires the player to do multiple playthroughs with different playstyles from his OWN motivation. It's your CHOICE. If you play it over and over again with always the same approach ALL of these games become boring very quickly. You can do this with vanilla, IF YOU WANT TO. Using mods is just a further extension for that.

And yes, all those games are similar somehow. Even rimworld can be compared to 7d2d in various points.

If you can't variate your own playstyle on your own, the whole genre might be wrong for you, or you already have seen to many similar games.

Imho shooters are even more boring. They are even more same of the same and usually you don't have that much choices to do things different then in a game like 7d2d.

I personally don't like storygames anymore, because they often don't have the possibility to do it my way. Yes there might be side-quests i can choose not to do, or i can play as warrior or mage, but the story always stays the same, even with different story trees like in fallout 3 it's still very limited.

 

[Laz Man]

a new player that is asking for more lategame content? Quel surprise!
But... but he is not representative of all new players! Yes! Yes that's it. He was just too hardcore with his friends. Next time don't be so gud and rush to the endgame!


@diegodgo87: it is know since forever that 7d2d is lacking any meaningful endgame, so it has become a bit of a hot topic on the forums, because the devs have different plans (Bandits that were promised 4 alphas ago for example)
but I am thankful for your comment. Because us loyal players with 1000s of hours are not their target demographic, so our input is just not valuable (their words, not mine!)

Hey I get your unhappy with the game in many ways but dont make this guys post about your personal gripes.

From reading the OPs post I read lots of good feedback for the devs not nitpicking on any particular mechanic but the overall feel of the progression.  Its not cool to use their feedback to fuel your own specific gripes....

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Hey I get your unhappy with the game in many ways but dont make this guys post about your personal gripes.

From reading the OPs post I read lots of good feedback for the devs not nitpicking on any particular mechanic but the overall feel of the progression.  Its not cool to use their feedback to fuel your own specific gripes....

but that is what we, as a community (at least a lot of us) have said for like 6 alphas now. "Stop re-remaking everything and please give us some content!"
The game was fine 3 times over but instead of balancing they scrapped and remade it. And EVERY time we say something like this, we are told that we are just the hardcore crowd (see Rolands reply) and new players don't feel like this. BUT THEY DO and finally a new player has posted his gripes and still ppl say they were just too hardcore.

Also it was only 2 lines. The rest was just telling him, that he isn't the only one, but the devs don't see it this way.

Imho the problem with all those games is, that it requires the player to do multiple playthroughs with different playstyles from his OWN motivation. It's your CHOICE. If you play it over and over again with always the same approach ALL of these games become boring very quickly. You can do this with vanilla, IF YOU WANT TO. Using mods is just a further extension for that.

And yes, all those games are similar somehow. Even rimworld can be compared to 7d2d in various points.

this is the only part I felt made any sense in context, so this I shall reply to:
I was talking about endgame.
In Ark it is breeding dinos and boss arenas.
In Rimworld it is getting the generator started with the waves coming. Also if you are really into your current world you can start eradicating other tribes.
In Eco it is a continous progression so there is no endgame but a constant struggle for ressources and skillpoints until the meteor hits.
Skyrim has so many Dungeons and quests that you forget half of it before you start a new game. True this one is most likely the one with the least endgame content. But it also is an RPG not a sandbox.
If you find any of these boring, that is preference. But they exist.
In 7d2d there is nothing you can only do after you have full gear or have a full base or...
If you rush, you can even do T5 quests in week 1.
The demolisher, badly as he is balanced, is the only thing that seperates early from endgame content.

This is the problem. After you have sunk


And about you said something about all these games beeing the same after a while... RimWorld? (definate no. depending on the story teller it is different every time)Ark? Yes breeding and gathering ressources is the same old, but it is also made for multiplayer and PvP so there is another layer that 7d2d doesnt have and doesn't support.
Skyrim? Again, yes but RPG.
Eco: yes but you also need to do it or your safe is gone after 30 days. You build towards something so the grind is justified.

Basicially: you can like or dislike grinding. But if a game DOES feature a grind, there better be a reason for it (Ark PvP, Eco destruction of the world,Rimworld constant struggle) and 7d2d you just grind because you want to survive... but its easy to survive and there is no endgame.

I am not saying 7d2d is boring. I am saying that a survival sandbox needs a purpose to go towards. And if we can build a city, get better relations with npcs who give various quests and the outpost is attacked every once in a while, this gives us another 80+ hours of content. Even something small as animal husbandry won't be coming.

In short: TFPs remake features, they don't add any (the last two gamechanges were more vehicles and electricity 2 and 3 alphas ago)

But this is where i'm out. This topic has been discussed at length and I don't want to hijack this thread any longer (also my patience is running low, trying to explain the same basic point over and over to different people)

 

[Laz Man]

but that is what we, as a community (at least a lot of us) have said for like 6 alphas now. "Stop re-remaking everything and please give us some content!"
The game was fine 3 times over but instead of balancing they scrapped and remade it. And EVERY time we say something like this, we are told that we are just the hardcore crowd (see Rolands reply) and new players don't feel like this. BUT THEY DO and finally a new player has posted his gripes and still ppl say they were just too hardcore.
 

Sorry but that's all you.  Re read the OP.  There are no complaints about remaking the game over and over again.  Just that they overcame the survival aspect and are now looking for more.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I was talking about endgame.
In Ark it is breeding dinos and boss arenas.
In Rimworld it is getting the generator started with the waves coming. Also if you are really into your current world you can start eradicating other tribes.

And that is what i'm also talking about.

I tried the bosses in ARK once, and it was not satisfying at all. If you do that, you'll just start on the next map, doing the same again.

I never built the starship in Rimworld, not even once. If i want the game to be "finished" i just stop playing. I don't need an "end". I stop playing when it becomes boring. I don't even want the game to end that way. My goal is to have a huge colony in rimworld. Even bigger then what i need to escape via the ship. I either stop when the colony becomes unable to manage because of effort, or if i get bored.

And in comparison to 7d2d the bloodmoon is the same as building the starship in rimworld. Only difference is, in 7d2d you have it from the start without triggering anything manually and there is no escape that tells you "you have succeded".

That's exactly what i'm saying all the time. Imagine in 7d2d reaching the top of the dishong tower is the "end". If you reach it, a helicopter will come and save you from the zombie island. What exactly would be different?

If you like that, just play like this. Once you reached the top of dishong, the game is finished. Do you really need an cgi sequenze showing the helicopter rescuing you just to realize that the game is "done"?

If you find any of these boring, that is preference. But they exist.

I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I just said i don't like that. I absolutely know that not everybody can handle this.

And about you said something about all these games beeing the same after a while... RimWorld? (definate no. depending on the story teller it is different every time)Ark? Yes breeding and gathering ressources is the same old, but it is also made for multiplayer and PvP so there is another layer that 7d2d doesnt have and doesn't support.

Imho even rimworld is exactly the same. The storyteller is just one of many variations you could try. Not all of them fit what i want to play. But they exist and that's fine for players that want to play in ways i don't like. And there is an event system announced for 7d2d that for me sounds very similar to the story teller of Rimworld. So basically, the same again, but for sure it will add value to 7d2d, too.

Basicially: you can like or dislike grinding. But if a game DOES feature a grind, there better be a reason for it (Ark PvP, Eco destruction of the world,Rimworld constant struggle) and 7d2d you just grind because you want to survive... but its easy to survive and there is no endgame.

As roland said, there will be no real endgame ever, just because if you add "endgame" people will make it easy and than ask for even harder endgame again.

If you want endgame turn up the difficulty and play until you can't survive the horde anymore, no matter what you do. And if it just ends up the week is to short to grind enough dukes to have enough amunition for the next bloodmoon, THEN you are done. Or set yourself a target like reaching the top of dishong.

Do you really need an animation or a text, that tells you that you have finished now?

In short: TFPs remake features, they don't add any (the last two gamechanges were more vehicles and electricity 2 and 3 alphas ago)

Yep, and it's still alpha. In opposite to rimworld and ARK. They are considered "done".

But this is where i'm out. This topic has been discussed at length and I don't want to hijack this thread any longer (also my patience is running low, trying to explain the same basic point over and over to different people)

Same here.