PC New perks part 2

kidmo31

kidmo31

New member
Ok now that I have seen more of these perks. Some are cool but now some are replacing gameplay. There is nothing "fun" about magic buttons that make you harvest more. Granted the grind to wait hours while fertilizer crafted was a pain but it was dynamic and most of all realistic. Not POOF I can produce more crops cause I pressed this button more than you. Also what is going to happen to Blueprints it looks like we magically will be gaining the knowledge to make things like guns and minibikes.... Hell even the 4x4. What will be the point of looting beyond the initial need food till I can kill animals. While perks are cool they may not be fun if they are at the expense of gameplay. What scares me the most is the person throwing all of these in does not even play the game regularly. Well as with A16 maybe the modders will give this game back its soul.

 
Why don’t you wait till you start playing A17 before complaining. All your arguments are based on A16. A17 has a revamped framework.

 
We aren't going to have enough points to get everything, so it will be a lot of agonizing over what to take.

For groups though, this is really good. One person can max something like the farmer perk, and they handle the food/meat gathering.

(hmm, where have I heard Hunter/Gatherer before... )

A tanky type to take heavy armor/no stun. Another for ranged/sniper stuff, builders etc.

So think of it as school. Major in AB, Minor in XYZ kind of thing.

Going to make some interesting mixes.

(I also expect they'll be tweaking/revisting the perks as the game plays out. That ALWAYS happens in any game)

 
We aren't going to have enough points to get everything, so it will be a lot of agonizing over what to take.
For groups though, this is really good. One person can max something like the farmer perk, and they handle the food/meat gathering.

(hmm, where have I heard Hunter/Gatherer before... )

A tanky type to take heavy armor/no stun. Another for ranged/sniper stuff, builders etc.

So think of it as school. Major in AB, Minor in XYZ kind of thing.

Going to make some interesting mixes.

(I also expect they'll be tweaking/revisting the perks as the game plays out. That ALWAYS happens in any game)
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Yeah, also agree above as well.

You still got to loot to be able to make these things. Also sure it is a click and get more but how many times are you going to have to harvest to get that many points to do this? Sure you can go straight to it on the first points you get but do you really want to put the first points you get into harvesting that much or at all at first? Guess it could depend on what kind of player you are. But I would say the majority probably will not and will harvest crops a good amount of times before getting that perk. So you could look at it that you done it enough times so by the time you do the one click to harvest more you got better at it. Same with some of the other perks.

 
If you have ever had a garden, you know farming has a lot more to do with knowledge than it does fertilizer.

Knowledge grants a lot. Translating that over to gameplay effectively in a streamlined and fluid way that doesn't bog down "fun" is hard to do. I personally would rather read a book on how to deal with pests than spend a few days hauling manure. Maybe that's just me.

 
I personally would rather read a book on how to deal with pests than spend a few days hauling manure. Maybe that's just me.
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Defo just you man, hauling manure is fun :rapture:

 
Why don’t you wait till you start playing A17 before complaining. All your arguments are based on A16. A17 has a revamped framework.
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My arguments are based on the A17 videos MM is spewing out everyday. The framework is describing the XML system behind the new perks. Which the whole game is going to be based off of going forward. I liked this game for the world not to spend more time in the menu system than I have to. Mark my words if there is no more BPs there is no point to risk looting in early game because everything else can be gained else where. Thank god I can stay in 16.4 if this turns out the way I think it will.

 
Almost 5 years in development it should be about adding more content not revamping from the ground up all the basic systems. Hence why most people are sharpening their pitchforks there is no roadmap and no direction. Its becoming a slap it on the wall and see if it sticks version of development.

 
Almost 5 years in development it should be about adding more content not revamping from the ground up all the basic systems. Hence why most people are sharpening their pitchforks there is no roadmap and no direction. Its becoming a slap it on the wall and see if it sticks version of development.
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Its also beginning to feel like a game of "how much can we strip away or simplify everything". There's a laundry list of mechanics we have lost over the years due to the systems always being rewritten and new focuses on what the game actually is, although lately its been hammered home to me that the game I have loved for 2 plus years is not the game i was supposed to be loving I guess.

The complex, atmospheric, challenging style I once fell in love with is slowly but surely being stripped away in favor of an arcadey version of "whack a perk". It's getting harder and harder to watch the game become more beautiful while watching the actual complexity of the gameplay become more simplified.

 
That's my feeling as well, but at least we had a good ride, and we will see how things go. Will not be the first time I disagree with dev direction, and while they may lose me, they will still gain a ton of new players who will love the "new" streamlined version.

I can think of Elite and Civilization series where the exact same happenend (edit: had to add Bethesda games as a classic example, Morrowind to Oblivion or Fallout NW to Fallout 4), and while I am not buying expanisions/new games in those series anymore, there are many others to make up the numbers, and are enjoying something which I do not enjoy any more. :bored:

In any case 7DTD is nowhere near those games/franchises yet, so even though the direction is off, it's not terminal.

 
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If you have ever had a garden, you know farming has a lot more to do with knowledge than it does fertilizer.
Knowledge grants a lot. Translating that over to gameplay effectively in a streamlined and fluid way that doesn't bog down "fun" is hard to do. I personally would rather read a book on how to deal with pests than spend a few days hauling manure. Maybe that's just me.
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Sure. I had a garden when I was 10 I think? Super fertile ground, sprinkled lettuce and raddish seeds all over the place having no clue, and the whole summer it was giving ... well, let's just say we were throwing away a lot as it was literally overproducing enormously, despite eating it every single day.

So while knowledge might help when there are difficulties occuring, having very fertile dirt and normal circumstances, you might not need to have any knowledge.

Now if we're talking growing more difficult things then knowledge definitely would help. But some things really only needs fertile ground, sun and water, and it literally pops out of the ground :)

 
The complex, atmospheric, challenging style I once fell in love with is slowly but surely being stripped away in favor of an arcadey version of "whack a perk".
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Off-topic, but I think enemies have also become like that. As gamestages progress game keeps throwing at you more and more irradiated bullet-sponges and super zombies. If that's not arcade-y, I don't know what is.

 
Its also beginning to feel like a game of "how much can we strip away or simplify everything". There's a laundry list of mechanics we have lost over the years due to the systems always being rewritten and new focuses on what the game actually is, although lately its been hammered home to me that the game I have loved for 2 plus years is not the game i was supposed to be loving I guess.
The complex, atmospheric, challenging style I once fell in love with is slowly but surely being stripped away in favor of an arcadey version of "whack a perk". It's getting harder and harder to watch the game become more beautiful while watching the actual complexity of the gameplay become more simplified.
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I actually don't mind rewriting the of the systems or simplifying things. The new system has much greater potential but the intention seems to move from survival genre to wacky Fallout 4 with magic perks like Mysterious stranger. Why would I want to cure my desease myself if I can randomly shrug it off?....

As the OP said, I also strongly dislike if gameplay is replaced by perk xml. I think it hurts the immersion and I'm not sure it even delivers the expected outcome. The idea is to get people playing as they would and just assing points to reflect what kind of character they would like to be. Ok, let's say I want to play sneaky guy who won't wake up zombies and kills them in their sleep or avoids them completely.

What is the likelyhood of me spending my points on improve sneaking right from the start (when it makes the biggest difference) if I have character: without stamina, with small backpack, with only one crafting slot, does laughable damage, can't craft no wokrstations or iron stuff??....

On the other hand, when we would have skill system where you can't buy skills but advance them while using, you would become sneaky character by sneaking around zombies. You would start doing it from the very beginning.

I think it would be better system if the perks were tied directly to skills and advancing the skill would unlock them. Have one armor skill that increases by wearing armor and perks to choose wheather you get bonuses that make you agile, silent but more fragile or loud, slow but tanky. Then just collect gear that the bonus would apply to.

 
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My arguments are based on the A17 videos MM is spewing out everyday. The framework is describing the XML system behind the new perks. Which the whole game is going to be based off of going forward. I liked this game for the world not to spend more time in the menu system than I have to. Mark my words if there is no more BPs there is no point to risk looting in early game because everything else can be gained else where. Thank god I can stay in 16.4 if this turns out the way I think it will.
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I just want to tune in and say:

I 100% share your opinion. The organic nature of progress is completly gone. And while I was wrong about the A12 (i think) reskin and weaponmolds beeing bad, every other opinion I still hold. While every alpha brought something new to the table, I also miss a lot of stuff of the earlier alphas.

But A17 looks to me to be more of a Fallout game, then a 7d2d game. "do stuff, spend points what you wanna have instead of getting better by doing it".

Dont get me wrong I got my moneys worth out of this game. And if you feel like this is the right direction for you, have fun.

But for me and a lot of others, 7d2d was a nieche game that did something no other survival game did.

Now its more or less Fallout with a destructable environment. Which is sad, because I dislike the fallout games.

You wanna know which game I have played nearly 2k hours in though? Skyrim. And now you can guess why. The one is an immersive experience, where HOW you do something matters as much as what you do, while the other one is a storydriven glorified shooter.

But enough ranting :D

I dislike the changes. Will probably stay with A 16 once I've tried A17. But even if I stay at 17, this alpha will probably be the least played.

Which is a shame really, when you think of how much they have improved.

*edit* for those of you who say:

"well if they have improved so much, why do you focus so much on that small bit you dislike?"

Because for me the progression was an integral part of the game. It got introduced 1-2 alphas after I started playing, but dumbed it down recently.

Basically think of a sandwhich, where only cheese is on it.

Now you get another sandwhich with cheese, tomatoes, onionrings and dressing... but the bread is made out of ♥♥♥♥.

"Why do you focus so much on this one part that you don't like" should now not be a response anymore.

 
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I just want to tune in and say: I 100% share your opinion. The organic nature of progress is completly gone. And while I was wrong about the A12 (i think) reskin and weaponmolds beeing bad, every other opinion I still hold. While every alpha brought something new to the table, I also miss a lot of stuff of the earlier alphas.

But A17 looks to me to be more of a Fallout game, then a 7d2d game. "do stuff, spend points what you wanna have instead of getting better by doing it".

Dont get me wrong I got my moneys worth out of this game. And if you feel like this is the right direction for you, have fun.

But for me and a lot of others, 7d2d was a nieche game that did something no other survival game did.

Now its more or less Fallout with a destructable environment. Which is sad, because I dislike the fallout games.

You wanna know which game I have played nearly 2k hours in though? Skyrim. And now you can guess why. The one is an immersive experience, where HOW you do something matters as much as what you do, while the other one is a storydriven glorified shooter.

But enough ranting :D

I dislike the changes. Will probably stay with A 16 once I've tried A17. But even if I stay at 17, this alpha will probably be the least played.

Which is a shame really, when you think of how much they have improved.

*edit* for those of you who say:

"well if they have improved so much, why do you focus so much on that small bit you dislike?"

Because for me the progression was an integral part of the game. It got introduced 1-2 alphas after I started playing, but dumbed it down recently.

Basically think of a sandwhich, where only cheese is on it.

Now you get another sandwhich with cheese, tomatoes, onionrings and dressing... but the bread is made out of ♥♥♥♥.

"Why do you focus so much on this one part that you don't like" should now not be a response anymore.
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i totally agree

 
Now its more or less Fallout with a destructable environment. Which is sad, because I dislike the fallout games.
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The Fallout games are my favorite games of all time. But for reasons, most of which, this game cannot possibly immitate. Not because it's not good enough, but because it's fundamentally different. And even if I loved everything in the Fallout progression system, I still don't believe they are the best fit for this game.

 
i totally agree
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Thirded.

They can't seem to grasp that we want more content, not simply a skill curve of the existing content.

If you wanted to be a mining expert in A11, you got a pickaxe and went and mined. Your friend focused on scavenging by going out scavenging for good parts. Your other friend liked to garden and built a little base and started growing food. You just did what you wanted to do.

We all understood that after about 100 game days you were left with the notion that you were successful, and didn't need to do those things anymore. You had enough mats, your base was secure, and you had a garden big enough to feed 50 players daily. Everyone then said "more, more, more!"

What they meant was....give me something else to do, create, travel, steal, sell, trade, conflict, bandits, etc.

What they did was "that sounds like a lot of work. let's make it so you're crap at mining/scavenging/fighting initially and you feel a sense of accomplishment by getting incrementally better by doing things".

Some people enjoy the ding, they just do. It is kind of addictive, they're not exactly wrong. But many of us were left going "wtf? I have to craft 5000 plant fiber pants/farm 500,000 sand/kill 10,000 zombies/insert next action to get xp/skills/perks etc. This in an effort just so I can get enough points to unlock mining so that it's not just a giant waste of time that takes 8 hits per stone block now?!?!" We were wanting to be 8 years old wandering into the basement of a house to find a cavern of experiences, and instead you implemented "let's just turn off the light and add 50,000 steps"

 
I'm open to changes but it sounds like the game is going to be really hard to solo now? Boo.

Also, in the past I liked how my skills just went up naturally. Sure people could grind them if they wanted, but that was their choice. I just went around scavenging and crafting as neccesary, and my stats went up at a decent pace. Sure some skills lagged and probably needed to be rebalanced, but the core mechanic was fine.

The last build everything is about XP, so now I'm pushed to fight zombies everywhere. In the past zeds were just obstacles to be avoided at best. Sorry to say it Fun Pimps, but fighting zombies in this game is not all that fun. It's relatively easy to master regardless of weapons, except when fighting certain enemies you rarely see. So grinding XP by bonking zeds on the head is no more fun than crafting axes for me.

 
I'm open to changes but it sounds like the game is going to be really hard to solo now? Boo.
Also, in the past I liked how my skills just went up naturally. Sure people could grind them if they wanted, but that was their choice. I just went around scavenging and crafting as neccesary, and my stats went up at a decent pace. Sure some skills lagged and probably needed to be rebalanced, but the core mechanic was fine.
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Scavenging still gives XP in A17 (at least Roland said nothing fundamentaly changed with xp gain). Since you need stuff to craft you also get XP from mining. So what changed? Just do that stuff and you will level up.

 
Scavenging still gives XP in A17 (at least Roland said nothing fundamentaly changed with xp gain). Since you need stuff to craft you also get XP from mining. So what changed? Just do that stuff and you will level up.
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It always find it funny when the Pimps complain about spam crafting but people will simply end up doing whatever spamming to get fast skill points anyway. If that means digging at night while spam crafting or whatever.

Its the exact same just with a different layer of grease. But what will hurt people is the stripping of feature, combined with the massive amount of skill points you need. Before if you wanted, you are able to get all skills with a lot of work. This is now impossible. ( 200 / 350 max ).

Now when you start as a character, you will again be spam crafting or spam digging or spam whatever just to get fast points, so your character is not a punch doll. We already see how Zombie hit more ( backstep removed, Swing while going down, swinging when down ). The heat damage bug is fixed but your still getting a reduced damage output.

TFP did not lie when they said "we want you do die a lot". Unfortunately its not the dying that is the issue in 7D2D.

Its the lack of content after your first week in-game. All these changes are done to make you "progress" less fast, as to hide the lack of content down the line.

None of content issue is fixed. Its even more stronger now because:

* Weapons come in one part

* Books are less useful ( useless? )... Vehicles are now all skills. Weapons are now skills.

* Mining is now also reduced to simply skill buying.

* Fertilizer is removed.

* Bones / rotten meat is as good as gone with bodies vanishing.

This follows the trend of simply reducing content and simplifying stuff. When people call the game Fallout, they are right. Fallout has gotten more and more simplified over the years. Consolised, generalized...

And i HATE the fact how they constantly point to mods to fix the gameplay issues. Hint: If people like mods that fix your issues, that means you are doing something wrong.

Then add insult to injury: It takes mods MONTHS after every Alpha release to get a stable version out. So we wait 15 months for A17. Then people can wait another few months to get a proper version of the game that is less console like? And then people have the same issue, when does A18 comes out and destroys all the mods again. You expect mods to have early access to the alphas so they can prepare their mods in advance!

This entire 15 month rewrite simply shows something important. They knew 7D2D had a coding issue and they lied to the people. I remember clearly after the long 8 months A16, how they planned for A17 the be a "short" time to Alpha release because TFP did not like this long development cycle. Many people stopped playing because hey, A17 is coming soon ( inc me ). And here we are today with a game after 15 months with almost no new content. Lots of graphics, yes. But the actual content has only gained a few items, matched by the removal of items.

I am frank when i say that i have no idea about the future for 7D2D. If A17 fails in returning a uptick in people playing ( and people buying ), ... That is why you never do 15 month releases. When you keep them short, people keep playing and it draws in new players. Even some hosts have stopped selling 7D2D MP servers because of lack of interest.

And this brings us back to lack of content. Slowing down the progression, does not fix the lack of content. And content is what people come back for. A graphical upgrade is something awwwww about for the first 10 minutes ( expect a lot of forum posts about how beautiful things look ) but the real response will come later, when people are used to to graphics and discover during their gameplay, that their is no new content!!!!

 
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