PC New perk system

[fl00d3d]

While I feel that many good points were made from a variety of perspectives, I think one thing that hasn't been considered in this discussion yet is the principle that any modern vanilla game (or application for that matter) should remain as flexible as possible for outside modification or supplementation. In other words, I feel that the best compromise here is to build out the vanilla game exactly as The Fun Pimps want, but also do so in a way that allows modders to have something to work with. It is practically a standard nowadays that games (and applications) will see addons and modifications. People expect that. And after vanilla (anything) gets boring or repetitive, the thing that keeps people engaged until the next major update are mods and their modders. And if we're honest with ourselves, many great ideas are typically brought to light by the community - which is really driven by the creative minds of mod teams.

So I would challenge The Fun Pimps to release alpha 17 with the flexibility to have the same (or extended) functions present in alpha 16, where possible. The underlying scripting can be done in a way that gives flexibility to modders while still implementing vanilla in the way you want to see it released. It's just a decision your team has to make. And I would respectfully request that you sincerely consider that. Thank you.

 

[KhaineGB]

While I feel that many good points were made from a variety of perspectives, I think one thing that hasn't been considered in this discussion yet is the principle that any modern vanilla game (or application for that matter) should remain as flexible as possible for outside modification or supplementation. In other words, I feel that the best compromise here is to build out the vanilla game exactly as The Fun Pimps want, but also do so in a way that allows modders to have something to work with. It is practically a standard nowadays that games (and applications) will see addons and modifications. People expect that. And after vanilla (anything) gets boring or repetitive, the thing that keeps people engaged until the next major update are mods and their modders. And if we're honest with ourselves, many great ideas are typically brought to light by the community - which is really driven by the creative minds of mod teams.
So I would challenge The Fun Pimps to release alpha 17 with the flexibility to have the same (or extended) functions present in alpha 16, where possible. The underlying scripting can be done in a way that gives flexibility to modders while still implementing vanilla in the way you want to see it released. It's just a decision your team has to make. And I would respectfully request that you sincerely consider that. Thank you.

This is a good compromise.

I would be 100% ok with the current system provided the hook-ups are still present in the DLL so modders can put back the OLD system (or even a hybrid) if they so wish.

I'm actually going through the info dump that was posted in the other thread to see if I'm missing anything, and it looks like that MIGHT be possible... but it's a big might. I cannot say for certain.

 

[meganoth]

What's being shown off now? It's not amazing. It's very restrictive. ...
Adding in the ability to customize it more with the new buff/effect system (which is absolutely AMAZING from the info dump we got, so massive kudos to the team for that) is great, but for the love of god, at least leave the OLD code hook ups in the DLL for modders to use so we can put back 1-100 skills.

You might not want it. Joel and his brother might not want it. The users do.

I agree that it should be possible for modders to add back in the skills if modders want that.

But I also think that I want to try out the new system before making any judgement about it.

Everyone has to go out and kill zombies it doesn't matter what they do or want to do they have to go out and kill the monsters until they get that "PING YOU DID IT!" and then are allowed a perk.

??????? Harvesting, mining, scavenging/looting, building. killing zombies ALL give XP. In A16 digging sand was by far the fastest way to level.

I'd like to play a pacifist guy. Someone who sneaks in, loots, sneaks out, and make bases that let him live in the post-apocalyptic world without having to ever kill those who used to be human.
But it looks like that guy will be level 1 forever? How's that "play the game your way" and "have actual choice in character progression"?

Same answer as above. But you got a point in that ideally zombie killing shouldn't give XP, only looting, to make a pacifist run really comparable. But too many players can't accept killing without xp rewards. Maybe a mod or a later release will try that.

 

[dcsobral]

Another thing occurs to me. If you reduce the number of mechanics in the game, then the ones that are left better be damn good. And, as it happens, zombie fighting in 7 Days to Die sucks. Compare it to Dying Light, to give one example, and zombie fighting in 7 Days to Die looks like amateur stuff.

 

[meganoth]

The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

That is not like in real life. The orange pluckers don't learn anything about farming, neither do farm workers who do all the menial tasks of farming.

Actually farming is to a great extent a knowledge skill. And that knowledge was built up by early farmers for hundreds of years through experimentation. And in the previous century agricultural sciences were the driving force for finding new ways to get more out of a piece of land. So 'farm more' is again an abstraction of either decades of experimentation or reading a book about agriculture.

 

[spaced33]

That is not like in real life. The orange pluckers don't learn anything about farming, neither do farm workers who do all the menial tasks of farming.
Actually farming is to a great extent a knowledge skill. And that knowledge was built up by early farmers for hundreds of years through experimentation. And in the previous century agricultural sciences were the driving force for finding new ways to get more out of a piece of land. So 'farm more' is again an abstraction of either decades of experimentation or reading a book about agriculture.

A bit of an over simplification. The first time I cook a meal I’m not very good at it no matter how many YouTube clips or books I’ve read. The hundredth time I cook that meal I know what it should look and smell like at various stages and I can consistently produce a quality product.

Real life grinding definitely gives advancement

 

[toores]

It's an old classic system which is used by a lot of the most successful RPGs of all time. Why is this arcady?

Arcady because there is no connection between XP you're getting and skill you're gaining from it.

Also, many perks are arcady as well. In a survival game you shouldn't be able to shrug off diseases, you should struggle and deal with them.

 

[RestInPieces]

While I feel that many good points were made from a variety of perspectives, I think one thing that hasn't been considered in this discussion yet is the principle that any modern vanilla game (or application for that matter) should remain as flexible as possible for outside modification or supplementation. In other words, I feel that the best compromise here is to build out the vanilla game exactly as The Fun Pimps want, but also do so in a way that allows modders to have something to work with. It is practically a standard nowadays that games (and applications) will see addons and modifications. People expect that. And after vanilla (anything) gets boring or repetitive, the thing that keeps people engaged until the next major update are mods and their modders. And if we're honest with ourselves, many great ideas are typically brought to light by the community - which is really driven by the creative minds of mod teams.
So I would challenge The Fun Pimps to release alpha 17 with the flexibility to have the same (or extended) functions present in alpha 16, where possible. The underlying scripting can be done in a way that gives flexibility to modders while still implementing vanilla in the way you want to see it released. It's just a decision your team has to make. And I would respectfully request that you sincerely consider that. Thank you.

I agree in general but I think that is irrelevant to the discussion. Mods' job is enriching/modifying the game, not completing it or making it coherent/intuitive like, for example, making a game with various abstract systems synergize well with each other. That's what most people here worry about.

In a survival game you shouldn't be able to shrug off diseases, you should struggle and deal with them.

Definitely - an example where RPG elements essentially screw over the survival elements. But then again that seems to be the focus in the last few years, enemies being an example of this, arcade-y as you say, trend https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?90652-Generic-discussion-Enemies

 

[Gazz]

Being a huge gamer, not a dev, actions in games, like with any MMO, means something in one way or another. Any that has played EQ1 knows that skills are leveled by using them.

If you have played EQ1 then you know that most skills (like all combat, casting, or language ones) are leveled by running a macro and going AFK overnight.

A most innovative and exciting way to play a game.

 

[Roland]

Mods' job is enriching/modifying the game, not completing it or making it coherent/intuitive

That's an impossible standard to be able to please everyone. There are as many different definitions of what constitutes enriching/modifying/completing/making it coherent/making it intuitive as there are people playing the game. What seems unintuitive and incoherent to you is clear as crystal to me. What seems incomplete to me seems fully featured to you.

The devs are going to make their game and call it done at some point. Modders are going to do their thing. Tons of people will look at that as enriching and feel gratitude to both TFP and the modders. Tons of other people are going to look at the same thing and see it as completing and feel resentment and disappointment for TFP and gratitude to the modders.

Whatever.

 

[Soridar]

I think that's taking a somewhat rose coloured glass view of previous systems. For example, the "craft to learn" system, was perhaps more realistic, but crafting hundreds of stone axes wasn't particularly immersive either.
The problem is immersion is a subjective term. It is, as far as I can see, really dependent on whether you consider the activity you're immersing yourself in fun or not.

I do like the idea of learn through use, but often I've seen the implementation of it fall a little flat. So, I just look at mechanics now through a single viewpoint: Is it fun?

I think you are partially right, in the fact that immersion is in the eye of the player. Which is also where your other side of the argument fails. That being, TFP are trying to point us directly into a single play style. Not one of use this gun for best results, or build only this kind of base, but rather we mush kill zombies to level.

While I personally enjoy all forms of play in this game, I know many others who are very narrow in their focus of the game. Many are hunter/scavengers, which TFP will be rewarding, but many are also the backbone of team bases, mining/building/feeding those hunters when they come back to rest and recover. This is why mods like Valmod, WotW, RH and others with class systems were so widely praised.

On my server, as an example, we have about 4 teams, and in all of them, there are at least 1 member who does nothing but support work. One team took it so far as the support player, rather than fighting zombies on horde night was "heroically" repairing the base while his comrades valiantly fought off the onslaught. This might sound funny, but they were a new group, maybe on the server for 3-4 days, while the server was on day 300 in RH mod. They had a mostly wood/stone base fighting hardcore zombies, and lived, not because the fighters were super, but because the support guy kept them defended.

I tell this tale, because it shows that support players don't have to be Rambo to be valued members n a server. In harder mods like RH, those support players are actually the ones that make it more readily survivable for the fighters. So taking away the ability for modders to have classes that can level in alternate areas than fighting allows for much more healthy team play and much more intense later stage fighting. I will tell you now, there is nothing like fighting 40 zombies (8 per your team of 5) with only 3-4 fighters, while you have at least 1 support guy keeping the base from breaking and tossing out a few grenades or molitov's (cause hey, who said he had to not join in when able).

And btw, if you don't see how this is about immersive gameplay, I would like to point you to some widely liked zombie shows...The Walking Dead, Z Nation, Val Helsing (I know vamps not zombies, but the principle holds) and others...They all have characters that are focused in a few areas, but none can do it all solo for too long. You have the fighters, the scholars, the medics and the builders, some do 2 or 3 roles, but none are very skilled in everything. They NEED each other to truly survive, and THAT IS the KEY factor in these mods. That is what gets many of us deeply involved in our teams and our bases. Making all of us equal and all our play styles legit.

"I might not have built the base, but while hunting I was able to scavenge most of the parts used in making the blade traps and base lighting, also I brought home all those engines the genny runs on, this is my base too."

 

[meganoth]

Not one of use this gun for best results, or build only this kind of base, but rather we mush kill zombies to level.

While I personally enjoy all forms of play in this game, I know many others who are very narrow in their focus of the game. Many are hunter/scavengers, which TFP will be rewarding, but many are also the backbone of team bases, mining/building/feeding those hunters when they come back to rest and recover. This is why mods like Valmod, WotW, RH and others with class systems were so widely praised.

Since everyone gets XP from mining, building and farming in A17 exactly as in A16, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Soridar]

I know the "rules" aspect of playing this game is swinging towards unfavorable now a days, but on the surface this new system provides a LOT of room for spam levelling to perks that the player never really earned in the first place. For example Im great with a gun, but bad with melee. So I mine a LOT. If levelling from mining is still a thing then I use those points to get better killing zombies without ever having to killa zombie. Now I use that increase to easily kill mass zeds, and thusly turn around and dump those points into health and pill resistance.
Is that the kind of immersion you guys are reaching to achieve? Because I agree I dont want spam ANYTHING. Hell getting 5 headshots in a row with a pistol should increase your accuracy a point (maybe that IS a thing now) and I don't think people would push back against those being unfair rules to improving accuracy.

I mostly agree with this, mostly as in, I feel if you shoot a target 20-50-100-200...times you gain skill in that skill, and like the current system you gain lesser xp to your general level. As you skill up in that area (guns, clubs, farming, etc) you also grow in overall wisdom (aka your level) and as such, giving a few generic points to spend buying the first rank, or maybe the first few ranks in a general skill tree, as a way to open new talent trees for you to master.

A system I would love is where you have talent trees in the form of classes. Each new talent in a tree requires your generic skill point to open, where they raise in cost based on power of the skill. Then you need to use said skill in order to maximize it's function or bonuses it gives. This way you can regularly acquire more skills, but unless you use those skills they are only base bonuses or functions. In this way, solo players can over time, build a set of skills that enhances their play style but takes a fairly decent amount of time to flesh out. This also allows the team players to focus more on roles in the group, allowing them to prosper faster (rewarding cooperative play).

This system gives everyone the ability to become what they desire, and focuses enhancing what the player does, rather than just letting a single avenue of play dictate every other aspect of the game, in a rather narrow window of player desire. Think of this, how many servers are out there that are creation mode only, not a zombie one in the game, that should go to show you haw many people enjoy just the harvesting, salvaging and building aspect of this game. Why shun them for loving your game?

- - - Updated - - -

Since everyone gets XP from mining, building and farming in A17 exactly as in A16, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

From what I was reading, it seemed more like the only solid way to level was killing.

 

[StabbyU2]

In my Opinion TFP have been trying to make the game more simple with every alpha then just throwing a shiny new thing out to hide that like distant terrain distant POI's things of that nature but this new perk system is not the way 7 days should be going. This is a survival game in a zombie setting if people can't get better at things like mining and building and farming by doing them then that takes A lot of the survivalist aspects out of the game and just leaves us more with a game like dying light with a destructible world and building minus the parkour. that is not the way most of the user base thinks the game should go. I know that plenty of people are going to just say deal with it but if the devs didn't want people to voice their opinions then why even have this forum?

 

[RestInPieces]

That's an impossible standard to be able to please everyone. There are as many different definitions of what constitutes enriching/modifying/completing/making it coherent/making it intuitive as there are people playing the game. What seems unintuitive and incoherent to you is clear as crystal to me. What seems incomplete to me seems fully featured to you.

There are some things that are not subjective. Tastes are subjective, but I am not only talking about tastes. I am talking about the occasion that one feature in the game cancels out another feature in the same game, or makes it obsolete. By any standard, this cannot be considered as intuitive or even cohesive design.

Just to note - this game has been tagged and described as survival, among other things. The survival genre's definition is also not something abstract or subjective (if it was, most rpg games out there could be tagged as survival).

-Ignoring the fact that most games which include survival in their genre's description, strive for "realism" (as well as this game - not in all of its aspects though), let's say that the way your character progresses, which is mainly discussed in this thread, is only a matter of tastes.

-RPG-like elements making the need for survival rather obsolete or "lite" (and lack of other features like food spoilage or important resource sinks) would be incohesive design. Are you familiar with the term "gameplay loop"?. This just works against the game's own gameplay loop, when it could even complement it. Survival and RPG elements must each contribute to the gameplay loop, not sabotage each other.

As I said earlier I don't know if that will be the case with the perks in A17 - many things have been changed, so I will have to experience it myself.

 

[Soridar]

The devs are going to make their game and call it done at some point. Modders are going to do their thing. Tons of people will look at that as enriching and feel gratitude to both TFP and the modders. Tons of other people are going to look at the same thing and see it as completing and feel resentment and disappointment for TFP and gratitude to the modders.
Whatever.

I have to disagree, and I will point to Bethesda as for why I do. Looking at any (well almost any) Elder Scrolls series game, and the Fallout series, you will see that there are pro vanilla and pro modders, but all in all, you will find a vast majority of players really loved both. The base games were massively entertaining, and once you played them through once, twice, ten times, many of us ended up modding them to the heavens and back. Though every player I have even known to play any of those games, always tend to go back and play the base game. They might do so with a graphics mod, or a basic inventory mod, but in the end, play the game in it's base form with only cosmetic changes at most.

I see 7D2D being just that kind of game. There is plenty that TFP can do to make vanilla just as addictive and enthralling as other modifiable games, and from the efforts that the modding community have already done, it is easy to see them continuing to do the same.

 

[JCrook1028]

Are they though? Can you show me a video where these things are showcased?
I've only seen talk.

So sorry but I am not going to go thru and timestamp every video/link and quote every forum Dev's post (which for example is where Faatal said he has fixed the sleeper respawn mechanic). If you care to learn the info is there. If you see/read the info from the devs and simply do not believe them that is on you, it does not invalidate the info.

 

[Death2gnomes]

If you have played EQ1 then you know that most skills (like all combat, casting, or language ones) are leveled by running a macro and going AFK overnight.A most innovative and exciting way to play a game.

Oh I see you must have been a WoW fanboi, that explains the EQ bashing.

That really wasnt the point and you know it! Skill increases didnt directly give you experience points. After how many YEARS of gaining levels in various ways and (bad) habits, its changed for the worse and people dont like it. That doesnt mean we can't get used to the new system, it does mean 7d has lost a major factor that made it so awesomely immersive and if it doesnt work for me, it just mean I'll have to find something that does.

 

[Pille]

Arcady because there is no connection between XP you're getting and skill you're gaining from it.Also, many perks are arcady as well. In a survival game you shouldn't be able to shrug off diseases, you should struggle and deal with them.

I disagree with your first statement. As I said, some of the best and deepest games use this system. It's everything but arcady. Uncoupling the XP from the skills is a brilliant concept because it allows you to do what you want to do and to be who you want to be without any restrictions (as Gazz already stated).

However, I can agree with what you and others have said about certain perks. They should not weaken but support the survival gameplay. So some of them should be reconsidered... Anyway, there will be another iteration of the perk system before the game release, right?

 

[Gazz]

Oh I see you must have been a WoW fanboi, that explains the EQ bashing.

I played EQ for over 10 years and that's exactly how skill leveling worked in that game.

Sure, you could level them "naturally"... if you didn't care about being any useful.