PC New perk system

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.
Click to expand...
This is a game, not a day job simulator.

The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.

 
This is a game, not a day job simulator.The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.
Click to expand...
And I agree, again I think its being overlooked that BOTH systems could have been combined to provide a more robust and complex system for an rpg game.

Hell no to spam crafting, but also hell no to being able to become immune to stun BECAUSE i'm killing zombies with that very same club you used as an example, or farming better. How is clicking a button 3000 times to get better using it and clicking a button 3000 times to grow better crops any different from each other?

I know the "rules" aspect of playing this game is swinging towards unfavorable now a days, but on the surface this new system provides a LOT of room for spam levelling to perks that the player never really earned in the first place. For example Im great with a gun, but bad with melee. So I mine a LOT. If levelling from mining is still a thing then I use those points to get better killing zombies without ever having to killa zombie. Now I use that increase to easily kill mass zeds, and thusly turn around and dump those points into health and pill resistance.

Is that the kind of immersion you guys are reaching to achieve? Because I agree I dont want spam ANYTHING. Hell getting 5 headshots in a row with a pistol should increase your accuracy a point (maybe that IS a thing now) and I don't think people would push back against those being unfair rules to improving accuracy.

You guys went out of your way to make this system so huge and important, it would be a shame to see it fall apart over time because you want to maintain the sandboxiness of it all at the expense of a logical and well done well rounded rpg build system.

So let me ask this, and the answer will basically tell me what I need to know about "immersion". Do you still gain points passively in things like Athletics or Scavenging as you loot (i know they are called different things now) or is it just straight up the ONLY way to level and gain SP is through JUST killing zombies?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
No discreet skills therefore no passive points as far as I can see.

It's Attributes and Perks.

XP was outlined by Roland by memory and was the usual list of active gameplay actions eg. Mining, tree chopping, killing etc.

So yes there are sources of XP outside of zombie killing but no hard details that I am aware of in terms of how many XP for activity x vs y.

 
Hell no to spam crafting, but also hell no to being able to become immune to stun BECAUSE i'm killing zombies with that very same club you used as an example, or farming better. How is clicking a button 3000 times to get better using it and clicking a button 3000 times to grow better crops any different from each other?
Click to expand...
You are describing skill grinding (clubs, crafting, whatever) twice there so of course there is no difference.

The key to skill grinding is that you use one skill ad nauseam to improve that one skill. That is when the game becomes a job that you're not even getting paid for.

What is different is a system that allows you to play the game your way and have actual choice in your character progression.

You're playing a role because you want to, not because the game tells you who you are allowed to be.

You will need general progress in the game to gain skill points but that is pretty much expected in games. The game does not care how you acquire these points nor dictate what you do with them.

You appear to be complaining about rules when the game is very much hands-off when it comes to your character progression.

The immersion that I see is in playing the game, not performing one specific menial task over and over. Look up from that recipe list and have a look around you. Go outside, maybe even to the other side of that hill over there.

I'm not even sure what you want there. You are damning skill grinding to hell only to praise it as the one true system of advancement. =)

Maybe this system is not ideal for OCPD minmaxers because it misses the boring-activity-gate for advancement that gives these people a unique advantage over players who only want to play a game and have fun. It must be terrifying that some normal person can play the game and be successful without risking carpal tunnel from crafting stone shovels.

Personally I am an OCPD minmaxer type. I can walk the walk, grind the skills. As a designer, though, I can not justify this kind of punishment becoming part of a "game".

 
This is a game, not a day job simulator.The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.
Click to expand...
With the new buff system you could require hitting zombies/players/animals for the skill to increase though...

As much as I'm waiting to try out the new perk system, I'm also skeptical. The new system looks so arcady. Do anything and just pick the stuff you want to advance.

I'm still thinking the skill & perk system is better and makes way more sense. There should be just some adjustments made.

 
The key to skill grinding is that you use one skill ad nauseam to improve that one skill. That is when the game becomes a job that you're not even getting paid for.
Click to expand...
If you eliminate shortcuts (spam crafting), you get paid exactly for the stuff you practice.

What is different is a system that allows you to play the game your way and have actual choice in your character progression.

You're playing a role because you want to, not because the game tells you who you are allowed to be.

You will need general progress in the game to gain skill points but that is pretty much expected in games. The game does not care how you acquire these points nor dictate what you do with them.
Click to expand...
You could do the same thing with skills & perks.

Have skills that advance when using them and that you can't put points into. Remove random skill point that can go to any category. Have perks open up that are specific to this skill tree when skill is advanced. Make the skills different enough that your character would feel different and let the player only choose some of them. Or even make skills that exclude each other.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
That's the thing. It wasn't supposed to be an RPG.
Click to expand...
People do seem to be forgetting the survival part of the game nowadays.

The key to skill grinding is that you use one skill ad nauseam to improve that one skill. That is when the game becomes a job that you're not even getting paid for.
Click to expand...
I was never in favor of skill grinding hell, but wouldn't diminishing returns just eliminate that problem? For example a recipe could have diminishing returns depending on current skill level, times the recipe has been used or consecutive uses in a period of time.

More importantly:

So let me ask this, and the answer will basically tell me what I need to know about "immersion". Do you still gain points passively in things like Athletics or Scavenging as you loot (i know they are called different things now) or is it just straight up the ONLY way to level and gain SP is through JUST killing zombies?
Click to expand...
Personally I wish that zombie xp is completely gone, for the same reasons you hate crafting grinding and more. What is the case in A17 Gazz?

If you want to make this system more immersive in the future without changing it again, you could still make it so that you gain attribute-specific xp and perk points by separating activities into groups, each group awarding one or two attribute-specific xp kinds. Would make even more "sense", immersion-wise, than what we had before.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The thing I really don't like about the new skill system is that it's disconnected from the world.

You could delete half the perks and make me interact with the world to get the same results.

You just assign perks as you like but I'd much rather:

*find armor and wear it to become efficient

*feed myself well to get better immunity

*find well-insulated clothing in the world instead of perking out of ever needing clothing at all

*wear less armor to be more sneaky

*advance to chemistry station to craft better medical supplies

*find/craft items that I can use on the campfire to make better foods

*find a bigger backpack to gain more unencumbered slots (and use the perk to decrease the penalty - because one row of slots that you could not free up would make the game more interesting)

*craft compost (station) and use fertilizer for better crop harvest

These are some random examples but the general feeling I get is that some of the gameplay has replaced by perk tables.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
As much as I'm waiting to try out the new perk system, I'm also skeptical. The new system looks so arcady. Do anything and just pick the stuff you want to advance.
Click to expand...
It's an old classic system which is used by a lot of the most successful RPGs of all time. Why is this arcady?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Without further explanations, I don't see any fundamental incompatibilities between RPGs and survival games...

 
Already given my input on the other thread... but here goes.

When the A17 videos first came out, MM was talking about adding stats so it was more like an RPG. My first thought was "Great! So we're going to have stats, skills AND perks! This is going to be amazing."

What's being shown off now? It's not amazing. It's very restrictive. I've seen a lot of talk about how modders will be able to customize a lot more, which is fantastic, but the 1-100 skills that you could level by DOING were far more interactive. I would've loved to see the old system + the new stat system merged together so we get something akin to... say... Fallout 3 as an example (you had a stat system and then skills that went from 1 to... a lot). Before anyone says "But that was a %-based skill system!" yes, I know, but it's one of the few RPG's I can think of that used a 1-10 stat system and then a 1-100 (and more) skill system combined that I have personal experience with.

And I know I'm not alone with this view. I've been talking to friends and folks in my mod community... and the general thoughts are this.

1) The game LOOKS amazing and is much appreciated.

2) Improved performance is fantastic and something everyone is looking forward to.

3) Extra vehicles are good.

4) Gun modding is good.

5) Folks are happy the AI is fixed.

That's it. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to has said they'd be happy with A16 just getting the improved performance and fixed AI. I know that's vastly different from the feedback on the forums, but when I suggest posting that feedback on here, the general response has been "Why? I'll just get the fan boys arguing with me." I'm not saying that to try and cause an argument, or problems or anything like that, but some of the staff come across as just as bad. Yes, I know the answers may be a little sarcastic, but that translates really badly in text.

I honestly do not understand why the old system was ripped out and replaced with this other than "We wanted to." The old one worked fairly well. Adding in the ability to customize it more with the new buff/effect system (which is absolutely AMAZING from the info dump we got, so massive kudos to the team for that) is great, but for the love of god, at least leave the OLD code hook ups in the DLL for modders to use so we can put back 1-100 skills.

You might not want it. Joel and his brother might not want it. The users do.

 
Without further explanations, I don't see any fundamental incompatibilities between RPGs and survival games...
Click to expand...

You could delete half the perks and make me interact with the world to get the same results.
Click to expand...
The way that you combine RPG elements with survival elements matters. RPG elements can completely overshadow survival elements or complement them. I don't know if this is the case with these perks in A17 yet, because there are a lot of changes happening, but some of them seem to make some survival aspects obsolete. Time will show.

 
Don't drop that mic too fast. Immersive and this current attribute/perk system could not be more contradictory.
Im looking forward to trying it, I think a lot of work has gone into it and I think it will be ages better than what 16 had in its progression system but don't for one minute think that going out to kill zombies, acquiring a phantom point that you can place in a perk that allows you to harvest 3 corn is immersive. It is anything BUT that.

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

When your core mechanic is as simple as stand in one spot, pull out your gun and move in a circle shooting zombies over and over and doing so will allow you to open up more backpack space, better health food, healing items, better accuracy, quicker looting and a host of other options I don't think you can claim it as immersive and challenging.

*drops mic*
Click to expand...
This.

Perks, skills or whatever you want to call them is a huge part of major MMO immersion, yes its part of building character, but if not done right it makes the game feel lackluster and boring. The way I see it, this new attribute system removes thought from the equation. You're damn skippy everyone will buy anti-stun, its a game breaking skill perk. IMO all the trees are a bit OP and lowers the challenge and invites stupid mods with 1 million HP zombies. The worse part of all this is that the new perk system hampers what modders can do with it while keeping with the spirit of the base game.

 
I've seen the video, I've looked into into it, shown it to my friends and we're all REALLY worried about where the game is heading now, between the perk system and the way combat is going to made arbitrarially harder yet by changing how the knockdowns work and reducing stun state and making it the only way to get invisible XP points isn't good. The best way I can put it is it feels like you're going from from Morrowind to Fallout 4. There's a satisfaction to watching a number climb, watching and FEELING your skill get better and better. It leads to specialization in groups too. People who want to be builders put time into it people who fight or gather do that. But this? Everyone has to go out and kill zombies it doesn't matter what they do or want to do they have to go out and kill the monsters until they get that "PING YOU DID IT!" and then are allowed a perk. It's not even about immersion to me, I feel like that's been the term thrown around but it's more akin to organic character growth. Sure building a 1000 clubs in the old days wasn't immersive but it DID grow your character and hey the maniac who went and above and beyond and made like 10,000? Well he really wanted to be the weaponsmith for your ragtag bunch of survivors, he's earned it.

 
Already given my input on the other thread... but here goes.
When the A17 videos first came out, MM was talking about adding stats so it was more like an RPG. My first thought was "Great! So we're going to have stats, skills AND perks! This is going to be amazing."

What's being shown off now? It's not amazing. It's very restrictive. I've seen a lot of talk about how modders will be able to customize a lot more, which is fantastic, but the 1-100 skills that you could level by DOING were far more interactive. I would've loved to see the old system + the new stat system merged together so we get something akin to... say... Fallout 3 as an example (you had a stat system and then skills that went from 1 to... a lot). Before anyone says "But that was a %-based skill system!" yes, I know, but it's one of the few RPG's I can think of that used a 1-10 stat system and then a 1-100 (and more) skill system combined that I have personal experience with.

And I know I'm not alone with this view. I've been talking to friends and folks in my mod community... and the general thoughts are this.

1) The game LOOKS amazing and is much appreciated.

2) Improved performance is fantastic and something everyone is looking forward to.

3) Extra vehicles are good.

4) Gun modding is good.

5) Folks are happy the AI is fixed.

That's it. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to has said they'd be happy with A16 just getting the improved performance and fixed AI. I know that's vastly different from the feedback on the forums, but when I suggest posting that feedback on here, the general response has been "Why? I'll just get the fan boys arguing with me." I'm not saying that to try and cause an argument, or problems or anything like that, but some of the staff come across as just as bad. Yes, I know the answers may be a little sarcastic, but that translates really badly in text.

I honestly do not understand why the old system was ripped out and replaced with this other than "We wanted to." The old one worked fairly well. Adding in the ability to customize it more with the new buff/effect system (which is absolutely AMAZING from the info dump we got, so massive kudos to the team for that) is great, but for the love of god, at least leave the OLD code hook ups in the DLL for modders to use so we can put back 1-100 skills.

You might not want it. Joel and his brother might not want it. The users do.
Click to expand...
I agree. It about time we had a lot of fixes and added content.

 
What is different is a system that allows you to play the game your way and have actual choice in your character progression.
Click to expand...
I'd like to play a pacifist guy. Someone who sneaks in, loots, sneaks out, and make bases that let him live in the post-apocalyptic world without having to ever kill those who used to be human.

But it looks like that guy will be level 1 forever? How's that "play the game your way" and "have actual choice in character progression"?

 
I'd like to play a pacifist guy. Someone who sneaks in, loots, sneaks out, and make bases that let him live in the post-apocalyptic world without having to ever kill those who used to be human.
But it looks like that guy will be level 1 forever? How's that "play the game your way" and "have actual choice in character progression"?
Click to expand...

It isn't. Thats it. They want to make the game be less grindy, and archive that by turning it into a stupid asia-grinder. Instead of skilling what you want to skill, you now have to grind (kill mobs) like in most mmo-grinders, until it goes "ping" - you leveled up.

You want to make a shotgun - thats 1500 kills away....thats what i call stupid grinding.

 
Use-based skill leveling only works when the player doesn't think about it. If you look at skyrim, where it works best is with combat skills (attacking, getting attacked, etc.), when doing these things it just feels natural when they level up and the player doesn't think "oh man I need to do this more so I can get better at it!". The game doesn't prevent you from any type of combat until you level up, it just adds flavor and stat bumps as you do.

But with things like crafting in skyrim, you're actually reminded everytime you craft that you haven't crafted enough to make better things. You want to make a elven sword? Tough luck, you need to grind out more iron equipment to level up the skill. It's actually stopping you from doing something because you haven't grinded.

So, I'm good with usage based skill leveling for stat bumps (like how it is in a16.4), and for a limited amount of "gating" blueprints. In a16.4, it feels like a natural progression so I don't think about it, I've never thought (man I need to grind out crafting\mining\etc so I can unlock X), it always just kind of happens around the time when I'm really wanting it.

 
This is a game, not a day job simulator.The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.
Click to expand...
Being a huge gamer, not a dev, actions in games, like with any MMO, means something in one way or another. Any that has played EQ1 knows that skills are leveled by using them. 7d barely scratched the surface on what skills could be used to make it more immersive, the sad part is that 7d tied all skills to leveling, which IMO, is what made players "hit the ground 8000 times or craft 3000 stone shovels". This new system is no better than a hack and slash.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top