PC New perk system

Encumbrance just serves to make the game more tedious.

People want more content (new and multi-seat vehicles, flight, bandits, rare/unique items, a proper storyline, expanded and integrated quest system, npc's, specialized zombies, fixes to the sleeper mechanics/stealth/distractions/sound, server management/admin tools, etc). Why are you showcasing a hot new perk for inventory management!?

Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.

 
Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.
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I guess it's a good thing this isn't just an RPG then right?

I kinda like the way they added encumbrance. It's easily overcome with some perks and it isn't stack size dependent. RavenHearst tried doing it by stack sizes and frankly it just didn't work. This approach seems like it will work well.

 
I guess it's a good thing this isn't just an RPG then right?
I kinda like the way they added encumbrance. It's easily overcome with some perks and it isn't stack size dependent. RavenHearst tried doing it by stack sizes and frankly it just didn't work. This approach seems like it will work well.
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Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.

 
I'm sure most of you forget one important thing about the changes with the new perk system. Foundation.

I recall someone (perhaps even Joel) pointed out that this will be a big basis for future content. Not gonna go into why this takes so much time or revamps the whole game, but it's essentially a solution that can be tweaked and configured easier in the next updates. I could also go into a fit about "It was supposed to be done and here we have new features?!", but that can be explained fairly easily also.

Imagine you would like to build your first car(or motorcycle) engine from scratch for your vehicle. You surely seen how various engines are built, but you have your own features in mind and what you need in the end. Sure you know the basics, but considering a lot of time spent on research and preparation, even the first thing you make will have some drawbacks or will not be optimal. Even so, having that first completed allows you to tweak this and that, changing parameters and you learn how to make it even better. Still, there are limitations on how much you can change things and sometimes the better solution is to build a new engine with a different design.

Do you talk about the new texturing and painting introduced not so long ago (i mean in the recent alphas)? It started giving so much more freedom in showing the world and i expect even more juicing it in the future.

Now don't get me wrong, i'd love some more content mid-late game and some rebalancing of the progression (we will have new progression so that's out of the window, but surely it will need to be tweaked at some point and that's why i address it). Sure, there are mods for many things, but it shouldn't be a cure for everything.

My point is... We will simply see how things work out. Some people will like it, some won't. We should simply take the best of it and have our fun.

 
Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.
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I can bench 200 lbs. like a breeze, but put on 10 more lbs. (a mere 5% increase) and I start slowing down? Reality that is.

 
Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.
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If I stuff your backpack with 20 items and then stack an empty can on top you can carry that can. If your not careful that can will fall out though as it's not secure.

Sounds realistic to me. When my kids load me up with stuffed animals and toys to carry it's not the weight that's the issue,it's holding it all

 
Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.
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What I meant was is it seems the system will work for gameplay. The "reality" aspect of it doesn't matter so much to me, only how it plays out in game.

 
Crafting - Simple diminishing returns, either with time or recipe-specific (or both) to solve the spam crafting problem. Besides, that's the most realistic thing of all, since the same happens in real life.
Armor - It would be extremely easy to make it so that you can get skill points on armor only from enemy hits.

Weapons - You don't really have to count hits to only enemies that can attack you, because you can't exactly farm- enemies without loses/risk (ammo, base damage etc), except if you use "exploits" - in that case exploits have to be eliminated for even more important reasons.

Athletics - It's also easy to make it so that you have to run a certain distance before the athletics skill starts getting increased - jump skill increase can be removed or also have diminishing returns.

Sneaking - Haven't heard of anyone training sneaking this way, but it could be that one should need a clear straight line from the player to the enemy in order for a skill increase to happen.
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Yes, basically its possible. But likely requires to fix potential exploits in the future then. (when players can pinpoint the exact mechanics points are handed over)

For example, players could trap enemies and hit them with a very low damage weapon. Or sneak around them repeadidly, or let themself get it, while healing up constantly.

But allowing to level up with repeatedly crafting the same thing should not be impossibel to fix. The game would then only assign a certain number of points to crafting a specific recipe-type, based on an average number of those items usually required per day - for consumer items. (to be determined by taking some statistics from normal gamesessions)

And a limited points-pool for typical leveled items (the stone axe or basic club would not be used, and thus not needed to be crafted more than a few days).

But overall, I think ability-progression should come more from the items and resources and locations to be discovered and harvested, instead of XP based assignment.

(The player building up an economy and capital such as workstations, farms and vehicles)

 
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Encumbrance just serves to make the game more tedious.
People want more content (new and multi-seat vehicles, flight, bandits, rare/unique items, a proper storyline, expanded and integrated quest system, npc's, specialized zombies, fixes to the sleeper mechanics/stealth/distractions/sound, server management/admin tools, etc). Why are you showcasing a hot new perk for inventory management!?

Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.
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Encumbrance is needed to limit the amount players can haul around and loot.

The game has potentially unlimited loot-resources (within the dimension of a game session)

If you look at other games, such as Empyrion that allow moving around huge amount of stuff (in the vehicles) without any real restrictions,

you will notice that the game quickly blows out of proportion asset wise. Apart from the beginning, there is no challenge in having resources.

Its also not fun to play if there are no resource limits. Finding stuff is less rewarding then, and you just play like a vacuum cleaner.

Its also harder to balance the game if players could have basically anything in unresticted amounts.

With an inventory limit, you can estimate an upper limit players will have within what time. So that stage of the game can be balanaced to still be challenging.

 
I personally think this system is much more realistic. Especially the gating of crafting. The older system required you to spread your points across so many individual disciplines for VERY specific things, and now things are grouped together is a much more logical and streamlined fashion.

I think the resistance I am reading about has more to do with people not liking change, than a genuine objective analysis of the changes and how the change will influence gameplay and leveling decisions.

The changes make 7D2D more like an old school RPG class system which is much more realistic and influential on gameplay styles. This is a welcome change in my opinion. The old system felt like a bunch of disparate parts. Your character was a Frankenstein set of skills, where as now your stats themselves help flesh you out in big ways.

 
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I personally think this system is much more realistic. Especially the gating of crafting. The older system required you to spread your points across so many individual disciplines for VERY specific things, and now things are grouped together is a much more logical and streamlined fashion.
I think the resistance I am reading about has more to do with people not liking change, than a genuine objective analysis of the changes and how the change will influence gameplay and leveling decisions.

The changes make 7D2D more like an old school RPG class system which is much more realistic and influential on gameplay styles. This is a welcome change in my opinion. The old system felt like a bunch of disparate parts. Your character was a Frankenstein set of skills, where as now your stats themselves help flesh you out in big ways.
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Its also the most boring and often implemented approach:

You split the abilities and traits of the character into sections and subsections.

(whatever mechanics the game has: moving, fighting, crafting, holding, building, healing, finding things)

Then you let the player improve each section with xp gathered while playing the game, to improve its "power" and unlock gates to non essential but useful abilities.

It works, but is also not anything standing out.

 
Its also the most boring and often implemented approach:
You split the abilities and traits of the character into sections and subsections.

(whatever mechanics the game has: moving, fighting, crafting, holding, building, healing, finding things)

Then you let the player improve each section with xp gathered while playing the game, to improve its "power" and unlock gates to non essential but useful abilities.

It works, but is also not anything standing out.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't learning-by-doing used by practically all Bethesda games and many other open-world games? How would 7D2D stand out?

Or are you only refering to the grouping into attributes-based perks?

 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't learning-by-doing used by practically all Bethesda games and many other open-world games? How would 7D2D stand out?
Or are you only refering to the grouping into attributes-based perks?
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Im not a big fan for Skill-leveling in Sandbox games in general. (I would rather unlock abilities and progress in the game by gaining access to things, not make the character suddenly jump higher and eat bigger ... because reasons)

In Betheshda games the progression is a mix of "improve what you do" and the old Fallout 1 (SPECIAL) perk system.

It works reasonable well. And it really lets the player play a role, as going into a branch lets the player really concentrate on a certain way how to play the game. It REWARDS the player by playing an imagined character, like a rough assassin, or a crazy battle-mage.

But from what I see with the new 7dtd system, its basically just about unlocking gates. Like the vehicles. Everyone wants to have the good vehicles, there not much roleplaying or choice. Just a a stage of having unlocked more or less gates yet.

Other perks will then be left aside, as they compete with the more essential perks. (having a jeep, a forge or hauling more stuff beats having some granddads sauce..)

The player will eventually unlock those things too. But then they are way less relevant.

Betheshda games reward the STYLE you play the game (Skyrim especially). Not just have different lengths of how long it takes to unlock essential things.

 
I personally think this system is much more realistic. Especially the gating of crafting. The older system required you to spread your points across so many individual disciplines for VERY specific things, and now things are grouped together is a much more logical and streamlined fashion.
I think the resistance I am reading about has more to do with people not liking change, than a genuine objective analysis of the changes and how the change will influence gameplay and leveling decisions.

The changes make 7D2D more like an old school RPG class system which is much more realistic and influential on gameplay styles. This is a welcome change in my opinion. The old system felt like a bunch of disparate parts. Your character was a Frankenstein set of skills, where as now your stats themselves help flesh you out in big ways.
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That's the thing. It wasn't supposed to be an RPG.

 
People want more content (new and multi-seat vehicles, flight, bandits, rare/unique items, a proper storyline, expanded and integrated quest system, npc's, specialized zombies, fixes to the sleeper mechanics/stealth/distractions/sound, server management/admin tools, etc). Why are you showcasing a hot new perk for inventory management!?
Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.
Click to expand...
new and multi-seat vehicles - done, 3 new vehicles in A17 tho the multi passenger aspect is turned off in the xml til they get it working, may be later in A17 or may be A18.

flight - done - gyrocopter is in.

rare/unique items - done - legendary items are in for A17.

expanded and integrated quest system - done - all new quest system in A17.

fixes to the sleeper mechanics - done - faatal has already stated that's been fixed for A17.

Seems about half your list is already IN A17 yet you discount all of that? I'm confused.

 
new and multi-seat vehicles - done, 3 new vehicles in A17 tho the multi passenger aspect is turned off in the xml til they get it working, may be later in A17 or may be A18.
flight - done - gyrocopter is in.

rare/unique items - done - legendary items are in for A17.

expanded and integrated quest system - done - all new quest system in A17.

fixes to the sleeper mechanics - done - faatal has already stated that's been fixed for A17.

Seems about half your list is already IN A17 yet you discount all of that? I'm confused.
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Are they though? Can you show me a video where these things are showcased?

I've only seen talk.

 
That's the thing. It wasn't supposed to be an RPG.
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Maybe you should mention that to the fun pimps because it clearly states it is on the home page of 7daystodie.com

"Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. "

If you want to shoehorn in your style of play, there are mods for that, but TFP have been pretty clear from the beginning that their intent was to make a game as immersive as possible. The best way to accomplish immersion that is through character development where choices matter and you can affect the world around you.

Essentially, "THE" essence of a sandbox RPG.

*drops mic*

 
Maybe you should mention that to the fun pimps because it clearly states it is on the home page of 7daystodie.com
"Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. "

If you want to shoehorn in your style of play, there are mods for that, but TFP have been pretty clear from the beginning that their intent was to make a game as immersive as possible. The best way to accomplish immersion that is through character development where choices matter and you can affect the world around you.

Essentially, "THE" essence of a sandbox RPG.

*drops mic*
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Don't drop that mic too fast. Immersive and this current attribute/perk system could not be more contradictory.

Im looking forward to trying it, I think a lot of work has gone into it and I think it will be ages better than what 16 had in its progression system but don't for one minute think that going out to kill zombies, acquiring a phantom point that you can place in a perk that allows you to harvest 3 corn is immersive. It is anything BUT that.

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

When your core mechanic is as simple as stand in one spot, pull out your gun and move in a circle shooting zombies over and over and doing so will allow you to open up more backpack space, better health food, healing items, better accuracy, quicker looting and a host of other options I don't think you can claim it as immersive and challenging.

*drops mic*

 
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Don't drop that mic too fast. Immersive and this current attribute/perk system could not be more contradictory.
Im looking forward to trying it, I think a lot of work has gone into it and I think it will be ages better than what 16 had in its progression system but don't for one minute think that going out to kill zombies, acquiring a phantom point that you can place in a perk that allows you to harvest 3 corn is immersive. It is anything BUT that.

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

When your core mechanic is as simple as stand in one spot, pull out your gun and move in a circle shooting zombies over and over and doing so will allow you to open up more backpack space, better health food, healing items, better accuracy, quicker looting and a host of other options I don't think you can claim it as immersive and challenging.

*drops mic*
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I think that's taking a somewhat rose coloured glass view of previous systems. For example, the "craft to learn" system, was perhaps more realistic, but crafting hundreds of stone axes wasn't particularly immersive either.

The problem is immersion is a subjective term. It is, as far as I can see, really dependent on whether you consider the activity you're immersing yourself in fun or not.

I do like the idea of learn through use, but often I've seen the implementation of it fall a little flat. So, I just look at mechanics now through a single viewpoint: Is it fun?

 
The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.
But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?
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Because immersion has a subjective component and your formula 'closer to our reality = more immersive' is not always valid (at least that's how I interpret the first sentence in the quote above).

 
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