PC New mechanics FOR the players - changes not so obvious

[Khulkhuum]

First and foremost i would like to say that this thread is not meant to rage or offend people, but to simply point out some of the mistakes everyone (or most of us) assumed concerning the A17 changes. I will be delving into the matters more as i (or others if they want to check) will find more things that could ease the minds of stirred folk. I think some of these are what Roland or Fataal somewhere mentioned that there are some small changes that are not so obvious and/or not listed in the release changelist.

Below is a list of assumptions compared to how things actually work now (currently in A17e, but i will update this post as necessary, also with new stuff so it is visible on 1st page):

1. I'm a scrawny wittwe human and i can't do any real damage to zombies.

Spoiler

Well guess what, initially you are almost harmless and can't do much against the Zs (especially the tougher ones), but after checking a few things in creative mode (with top skills and weapons) i went into a number POIs. With my trusty bow and arrows, as well as machete/knife and guns i was able to easily dispatch any zombie using stealth, but also without it. Even radiated Zs went down with one Steel arrow to the head in stealth (4x damage). You got something to strive for eh?

2. Stamina is too weak, i can't do anything.

Spoiler

Wrong and wrong. Stamina doesn't work as in A16. Mainly it regenerates faster and can do better with additional skills (for running or using weapons). You can also add more max stamina through the skills. - But i get less materials when using tools on low stamina! - A total load of bull... You get the exact same amount of resources (and hit with same damage) when you have 30 stamina or close to max. This is different from A16 when having below half of max stamina resulted in lower resource gain. Here, hit on your trees/blocks/zombies how much you want, even using all your stamina. It won't change a thing.

3. If i die i'm screwed! No matter how many points i put into skills, i'm back at level 1 after death!

Spoiler

Wrong again. Just checked in creative and when you die you get 5 points down in every attribute. - For the love of all that is holy! That is too much! I'm quitting! - No you don't, because after 2 minutes (timer drops to 57) it gets down to a 2 point detriment. Yes, when you hit that sweet level 20 you are sure to have at least level 2 in most attributes (if you added points) after your first death and living for at least 2 minutes. When the timer goes low enough you will have -1.

4. - But if i die again i will lose even more points! Every death counts!

Spoiler

Even more wrong. If you die you won't get another debuff and get more points diminished. You always have 1 debuff, period. If your detriment goes down to 2 points and you die again, every new death won't decrease your stats below 2 (may be a bug, but i doubt it). This means that YOU have to survive for 2 minutes and can die again and again and again and again... In short, each death won't push your stats even below the initial 5 detriment (if you die immediately in that 2 minute window). On the other hand, if you die again when you have -5, after two minutes you will have -4... So yeah, be scared of dying in 2 minutes after your first death. But surely you can survive at least 2 minutes? Still, even having -4 will diminish over time, so bad luck can be healed over time.

5... More to come as we all exprience A17!

 

[Scyris]

Intersting, now the death debuff doesn't seem to bad if it goes from -5 to -2 after 2 minutes. How long before it goes down to -1 I wonder.

 

[Zourin]

1. Fighting sucks, but it only takes a couple perks to bring it up a notch. If you're going for a sneaky archer building looter, you want Boom Headshot and Hidden Strike for those multipliers. Or, if you just can't be arsed to care, get L2 in Skull Crusher and beat the snot out of them. I HIGHLY suggest scrap armor early on, even if you plan on moving into light armor in the long term. It WILL save your bacon.

2. Stamina is a problem, but mostly because of food capping it constantly. it's possible (and I've done it) to hit a point where you don't have the stamina to harvest a rabbit. You literally can NOT use any tools. It's a very real early game problem. Otherwise, you just spend 8 points. 2 points in STR, 2 points in Agi, 2 Points in Sex Rex, and 2 points in Rule #1. most of your stamina issues should dissipate by level 10.

3 & 4. A little explanation of what I ran into. Day 7, horde night, and I'm sitting at about level 18ish. From my perch, I unload an smg into some spike-weakened, coked up murder hobos. I run out of SMG ammo with plenty of targets left. All clumped up. I pull out my airdrop-blessed rocket launcher, slap in a frag load, and fire. It clips my platform, killing myself. I finish horde night without further incident at the magic, glorious, dwarven blessed, level 20 on top of a tits-out cheerleader mardigras float. Only I couldn't invest my points. I didn't "meet the prereqs'. The cheerleaders went home, the dwarfs called me a loser, and there was a pot of crap at the end of the rainbow. Getting killed by leprechaun poltergeist pigs in a POI didn't help the situation later that day, further postponing my forge orgy and home repair to nearly 2 game days AFTER I had earned the ordained level and points... Being cockblocked is not fun. If you think it is, I'm the wingman you need.

 

[DeadGerry]

Thank you for taking the time to think about this stuff, OP, but I'm not sure these are particularly 'common' misconceptions. There's the usual complaining from players who would rather everything was the way THEY like it, but there are also genuine concerns and queries from more open minded players that I'm seeing (and feeling myself).

I don't think anyone is under the illusion we can't kill Zeds - however there seems to be a bug with some Zeds, notably soldiers, not dying. The difference in damage for un-modded weapons isn't huge; which has caused some confusion, but I think an issue here is that we're encountering tough enemies (Zombie bears, Radiated Zeds etc..) early on with very poor weapons. Yes, one a player has the perks and the weapons they need it's much easier; but the conception (not misconception) is that there is now a VERY steep difficulty curve with little warning - and it's easy to get stuck in a vicious cycle of death early on.

Advice for players on levelling up and getting better items would help with this - or maybe toning down the high level enemies early on.

The conception with Stamina is that max stamina is too easily LOST in the early game - and again it is too easy to find yourself in a vicious cycle. More than one player has noted themselves ending out with insufficient stamina to harvest, fight, run or aim their bow. It gets easier as you survive and get more food making ability, but for the early player practical advice would help with this real problem some players are having, or perhaps some re-evaluation of how the stamina works or can be replenished; at least for the early game.

For deaths, you are - again - kinda hitting the nail from the side and missing the point. The players who are struggling with deaths are generally those having it happen early on and are getting caught in an endless cycle. yes, there are ways around it, and ways to limit it's impact and ways to recover from the losses. These become more readily available and easily accessable as time goes on; but for the early game you can end out having to just either sit and wait for health to recover, sit and wait for penalties to wear off, or - having already died - head back out into the world weaken than you were when you died and probably die again. It's not fun; and it's mostly a problem in the early game for the early player.

Your advice of 'be level 20+' isn't helpful for players level 5-19. The solution of 'wait 2-10 full real time minutes for it to wear off' is 5 minutes that an early game player doesn't have to waste by sitting around not doing anything.

Again; practical advice of how to recover and what to do would be good - or the Devs could add some insulation for the early gamer.

Bad luck can be healed over time, but time is a finite resources on this game that the inexperienced and low level player needs MUCH more than the experience high level player. The penalties and hamstrings are aimed at the beginner, making you first game ,your first hours, your first day MUCH harder than what follows.

Any advice?

Much appreciated!

 

[Khulkhuum]

My point for this thread is to show that not everything is "doomsday" and not worth playing. Sure, some things are a problem, but some of them can be put on bad luck or bad strategies you chose. The game is significantly harder, even more with Zs having proper AI, but also various bugs that make you pull hair off your head. I have seen more than once (mostly in negative threads about A17) these remarks. Don't want to sweeten everything and show things are great, simply they are not so grim as some people tend to believe.

1. Compare this to any type of game (the best would be an RPG) where you start off at level 1 without any equipment (or with lacking). With everything you do (apart from sitting and not doing anything) you gather "experience" in a form of equipment, items, XP towards level, skills, etc. You are not the same character when you enter the world and after a few good days. While "not able to put a forge from the start" may be the end of the world for some people, it's not like you can't ever put one.

My advice: Shift focus from things you knew, where for new players simply try thinking of new things to do. There are tons of things to do, not only fight Zs (which can be done also in numerous ways). Many things are harder, but that is itself a specific indication that "you're in head over heels". Don't take on bears or soldiers without proper equipment, because not every enemy is the same as the common zombie.

2. Pointing out how stamina differs from A16 and people i think still are in that mindset. I surely was for a long time before i realized "hey,i can simply hit as much as i can until i have stamina, don't have to wait until it's 50%". Also, faster stamina replenish and skills for that help things.

My advice: Invest into stamina skills, but also those that cater to what you want doing. You want clubbing, so invest into melee. New Robin Hood, invest into bows. Want to explore, there's Pack Mule (which level 1 is obligatory IMHO). Want to gather materials, there's Mother's Load (or whatever it's called). If you want to farm invest into Living off the Land. Small steps forward and you can advance to anything you desire.

3 & 4. This is for all those people that moan that when you die it's game over = you don't have any skills and you can't do much. Even level 1 skills (not attributes) give you a good enough boost for starters. Additionally, when you're in mid-end game you will have a small detriment compared to how much you got from those skills/attributes. Sure, death isn't good in the game, but it's a matter of circumstances. If you die after building the forge and making your tools, you won't be as sour as just before it.

Concerning the timing, i noticed on my playthrough character that around 18-16 minutes i had -2 (that is why i investigated this), but past 15 minutes or something i already had -1. This could be consistent that at 57 you have at most -4, at 45 -3, at 30 -2 an at 15 -1, but i didn't want to wait an hour on the creative mode to check that special "double death" situation. Regular is -2 at 57 and -1 at 15 i think.

My advice: Don't go into dangerous biomes, mostly due to specific spawns in those biomes. Wasteland has bears and dogs more common than the forest, desert has snakes and vultures (although they could happen anywhere). Walk far away from dangeours POIs. Bigger buildings are certainly something to be prepared for, while the smaller ones (especially those having 1 floor, not many) tend not to be "dungeons". Places looking like military camps will also house harder enemies (especially dogs and soldiers, but perhaps even cops). You want to rush things then be prepared to tend more on luck than skills.

Also: Time IS a commodity in the game, but good planning also is. Scared of the 7 day horde? Find a good (metal based at least) POI on which you will hide. Prepare yourself some backup plans for escape. You don't have to fight the Zs anytime (even at night and 7DH). Don't have food/water around your place? Go find a new one (preferably a new biome). Additionally, your first day can be pretty peaceful if you don't stray from your initial spawn - no enemies will apear for some time in the small vicinty, letting you gather some basic materials, as well as finish the tutorial.