New Horde Ideas

[Tin]

The player outscales the game. Zombie strength never increases, only their numbers do. I can't see the game ever getting to a point where 7 day hordes aren't completely avoidable. It's just not going to happen unless they overhaul the entire game.

It's very doable right now just tweaking xml values. No overhaul needed. You can easily make the player under powered compared to the zeds.

 

[Roland]

I think this new destructo-horde is going to really suck, and they will have to do a major downgrade to Z block damage if they want to keep their audience of players.

I think the new zombie behavior is going to give players the opportunity to rethink base design and adapt and figure out new strategies which will re-energize their audience of players.

 

[Mytheos]

I don't see what the problem with having the option to disable it is. The game has a "creative mode" for people who just want to build stuff. Why shouldn't they be able to disable it and the rest of the zombies without modding?
I'm tired of hearing "it's still in Alpha" every time an early access game is criticized. This game has made lots of money and has been in Alpha for about 5 years now. It's far from being a niche game like so many Early Access games are. Why does a game with so much emphasis on zombies and the "7 day" gimmick have such bad AI? Why aren't the special zombies more threatening?

At this point the game would need a MAJOR overhaul to fix hordes and such. There's just so many little things that add up to a big problem that's been discussed a million times now. Even for new players it doesn't take long to figure out that you can avoid the hordes if you don't want to deal with them.

If you want to mod out the namesake of the game, use a mod.

It doesnt make much sense to ask the developer to add a setting that disables the main point of the game, surviving the 7 day hordes.

Its like buying a racing game and asking to have the ability to turn off racing and just drive randomly around, it just sounds like you need to mod your game or it simply doesnt match your tastes.

The game is in alpha, and I dont mention that to defend the game, I mention it due to the obvious fact it isnt optimized and therefore you cant say the game cant support X sized hordes.

Again I dont mean to offend you or sound superior, but I have played games to a thousand days and never seen a horde that drops me blow 60 FPS at 1080...my computer is not state of the art, but it is a gaming computer.

So I dont think after optimization there is going to be any issue with the current horde sizes, or even larger ones.

Further...there is probably going to be years between now and release, that allows plenty of time to make all the small changes needed to make hordes really great.

 

[Mytheos]

I think the new zombie behavior is going to give players the opportunity to rethink base design and adapt and figure out new strategies which will re-energize their audience of players.

I am really looking forward to seeing what they have done.

Dont get me wrong, I can currently make a platform to handle a 1k+ day horde and you can even spawn in 20+ feral cops for fun during it...I just wish we could get back to building actual buildings that we could fight out of that didnt take up so much time and resource.

I'd like for it to be more about being clever and designing reasonable bases that work and can be upgraded over time to match the increasing tides of undead without using lame methods or needing a 4 man construction crew to keep up with repairs/building.

A big help would be getting pre-exisiting buildings sorted better on structural integrity...right now they tend to be too much of a liability for long term use.

 

[ArcticPrism]

If you want to mod out the namesake of the game, use a mod.
It doesnt make much sense to ask the developer to add a setting that disables the main point of the game, surviving the 7 day hordes.

Its like buying a racing game and asking to have the ability to turn off racing and just drive randomly around, it just sounds like you need to mod your game or it simply doesnt match your tastes.

The game is in alpha, and I dont mention that to defend the game, I mention it due to the obvious fact it isnt optimized and therefore you cant say the game cant support X sized hordes.

Again I dont mean to offend you or sound superior, but I have played games to a thousand days and never seen a horde that drops me blow 60 FPS at 1080...my computer is not state of the art, but it is a gaming computer.

So I dont think after optimization there is going to be any issue with the current horde sizes, or even larger ones.

Further...there is probably going to be years between now and release, that allows plenty of time to make all the small changes needed to make hordes really great.

I don't have a problem with hordes existing and based on my posts I want them to be better. I'm just saying that if the game has a creative mode, a mode for people who only want to build, why isn't there an in game option to disable zombies? The game is as much a sandbox as it is a survival game.

What are your PC specs and general graphic settings?(ultra,high,med low)? You can play with a mix of high res but low settings. Do you play with the default max zombies 60?

It's very doable right now just tweaking xml values. No overhaul needed. You can easily make the player under powered compared to the zeds.

I'm referring to all the ways that exist that let players completely avoid hordes. Minibikes, underground, skyscrapers, buildings on stilts, water. They even want to add flying vehicles(Gyrocopter) to the game as if minibikes weren't broken enough.

 

[Mytheos]

@ArcticPrism

I have an i7 3770k OC'd to 4.7ghz and a 970, SSD HD.

I probably will be upgrading at some point soon now that the new i7s are a reasonable upgrade.

I run with mostly maxed settings outside the occasional one that is bugged, for example I had shadows off ( turned them back on for some testing yesterday ) due to the fact they kept bugging out underground lighting last time I played.

Yes I play with default settings, yesterday I tried a day 1k-ish horde in creative mode to test a platform and never had any FPS issues, even spawned in like 10-20 extra zombies during it.

Yes there is creative mode...which has god mode.

So not sure why you want the devs to spend development time adding a bunch of modding options when modders will do it eventually for things like remove hordes?

I'm almost certain you can do it yourself right now...the devs made the game highly modable, and from what I hear next patch even more so...so again removing hordes seems like something I dont want the devs to waste a minute of time on adding to the game.

Finally the more people that play with the hordes, the more experience the hordes and learn to deal with the hordes...which gives the devs more feedback, which is needed now the most.

 

[vedrit]

An Apocalypse has a limit? I thought one of the games premises was to see how far you can go, with all said limitations on the player? Always a new challenge pushing the player to the Razors Edge the further you progress. Till finally, finally! you reach that tipping point that only a few can overcome. I just don't see the issue of things in the game progressing beyond the players abilities personally but if TFP make it so you can overcome everything so be it... time to ramp up the difficulty in my case! Maybe time for you to lower it?!

That's not what I was saying. The apocalypse has no limit, players do. There eventually comes a point where nothing the player does can permit them to survive and they may reach a state where they can never recover and are in a constant state of being killed. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call that fun.

 

[Mytheos]

That's not what I was saying. The apocalypse has no limit, players do. There eventually comes a point where nothing the player does can permit them to survive and they may reach a state where they can never recover and are in a constant state of being killed. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call that fun.

Its fairly easy to get to a point where the hordes cant really challenge you using several methods...and I think most people arent ever going to see much past the first several hundred days unless on a server.

With a17 perhaps that will change...but for now there are probably half a dozen ways to survive anything the game can toss at you.

 

[Blazer777]

underground bunkers with fall pit design double reinforced steel defenses and walls

 

[Mytheos]

underground bunkers with fall pit design double reinforced steel defenses and walls

Nah, its all about the platform, lol

 

[KanedaSyndrome]

Implement the following things, some of which I think are in the game already, but should perhaps be default.

-Buff zombie speed, doesn't have to be running, but make it 30-50% faster than current.

-Make day/night zombie speed the same.

-Make head trauma necessary for killing zombies, you should still be able to dismember.

-Make it much slower to build stuff. Let us put up the framework at no/little cost, and then let us "fill in" the materials by working on buildings, but no more of the instant placement of stuff, make it take time to build stuff.

-Make a weight system for inventory, such that we can't dig a hole where the earth magically dissapears into our "bag of holding", such that it's inconvenient to dig holes, you need to move the dirt out of the hole, and that would take a lot of time.

-Fix zombie count, find a way to have hundreds on screen at the same time, with thousands active in a loaded cell.

-Allow safe bases, but make it so players need to leave their bases often enough, and leaving home should be where the danger lies, not with zombies scratching the walls.

 

[Hazeree]

I just dont get it. Why is all of this such a problem? Why do people think that the AI in A17 is going to change all that much?

Spinning zombies? It was a 1 in 20 glitch. This will hardly change anything in A17.

Digging down? While I agree something should be done to increase the challenge, I am under the impression only certain types will be able to do so and only on horde night. It just means doing as much fortifying vertically as well as horizontally. Again, how does this make the game "so different those people who plan to exploit the game will rue the day"?

Running/faster? Thats already an option, and that will not change.

Hitblock aiming? Bad defense design might be impacted? Decent concrete structure, wood spikes, and making sure home base and horde base are separate will not be effected. Wandering hordes walk right by a good base. Hordes should always be dealt with away from your home.

And why does everyone always ignore the greatest exploit this game has that will not get addressed? A six pack of beer and I can dance around a maxalive=200 gamestage=3000 day 100+ horde all night with no armor. I dont even have to kill a single zombie. Just run around in circles like a track star avoiding a group of 5 year olds playing tag. This is the most oppressive feature in the game, exploited by the stream-team themselves. Why is underground bunkers so disdained, but this is OK? The haters keep saying that because the exploit exists, it ruins thier game even if they refuse to use it. What about beer and running around then?

And before you label me, my gameplay is not what you think. I enjoy that constant rush to make things better each week. I defeat (or get demolished) by hordes through hard work and continually improving designs. If the horde progression is not keeping up with my pace, I up the difficulty. I have a home base design that kills the screamers while I sleep and have a dozen forges raging away. I have horde bases properly spaced away that are at ground level and use the intended tools provided by the developers that do not use exploits. I kill cops with explosives. I repair and actively repel while my defenses are performing thier job and get a thrill when day comes and I survived.

Nothing I have seen from the entire AI discussion will have a greater impact than what can be done with the main settings and xml edits. And since those have always been there.............

 

[TotallyNotABot]

I think this is missing another question:
Which rewards can hordes offer making it worth fighting them?

A simple way to make it worth fighting hordes is to increase the amount of loot dropped by horde zombies. Lets say by 100%. This makes it almost guaranteed that every zombie drops SOMETHING at the very least. And the zombies who do drop good loot like bloated walkers, will drop double the loot. For example if they dropped 24 steel arrows, you will get 48. It sounds like a small change and it is, but the loot will quickly add up as you loot all the corpses.

And most importantly: ADD THE FEATURE TO TURN OFF 7 DAY HORDES. Yes I know it's 7 days to die. But we will never get anywhere if we ignore half of the playerbase. If they don't want bloodmoons then fine, one button is all it takes to fix that. Meanwhile the rest of us madlads can have fun fighting waves of updated zombies

 

[Morloc]

Need a reason to fight the Horde? Scoff at zombies with GPS?...ones which somehow know you're under 50 meters of solid rock?....and can dig to you???

Fear not!

Just add......refugees!

1) Plop down your land claim block and 2 refugees appear and will remain in the area.

2) Every so many days (say 7?) the zombies will discover where the food is hanging out, and will home in on it. Not ~you~, but your refugees (more accurately, the land claim block). Until you plop down the block, you can't build a forge, workbench, mixer, or chem station (don't female dog nomads....you can still use ones you find. You are nomads after all! )

3) Those refugees can't fight very well...in fact, most of them can really only polish off a wounded zombie, and take a few hits. You need to defend them! ...with walls....spikes....turrets...your cold dead hands!

4) As you survive, more refugees show up. Some you might acquire as a result of quests. Some might be dogs! Maybe there'd be some construction gated behind having a minimum number of refugees.....or maybe not?

5) OPTIONALLY...(If the Pimp's Dream lives on...) These NPCs might have random special abilities to make each unique such as:

- Better combat abilities.

- Crafting bonuses (Faster forges, cooking, etc.)

- Special crafting options (Jimmy knows how to make armor out of old tires!...and it doesn't suck!!)

- Alarms sounded when random hordes are approaching.

- Automatic harvesting/planting.

- Refilling turret ammo.

- Turning off campfires/forges when they're not producing anything.

6) The catch....you can't place this "community" land claim block anywhere but the surface or no refugees show up. You can still cower underground and let everyone die if you'd like. The zombies no longer GPS, but you won't have the full power of crafting wherever you please until you have and defend a community.

-Morloc

 

[Dimpy]

I think there should be a type of zombie dog that can match the speed of the minibike. Makes the "biking around in circles" thing more interesting.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I had the same thought process as Viktoriusiii, I made the daily spawn a complete nuisance. Once i go out side they WD speed in great numbers as I try to scavenge for supplies.

They follow me to and into POIs to compound sleeper volume.

At the end of that play session, I was just happy to escape alive with a cooking pot. to boil my water and eggs.

If it is made so difficult to collect resources, a player might enjoy every scavenged resource as golden

Proven case by Roland

 

[Sinz]

I think you’ve brought up some really good points @Mytheos

I’ve been tracking all confirmed content for A17 closely and most of what @mytheos and other have brought up has been addressed or changed in A17 so we’ll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

To summarize, zombie artificial intelligence and path finding is much smarter now, so everyone’s comments about AI being no good are irrelevant.

Dogs can now dig down and all zombies can be modded to have the same capability.

There is another way to avoid BM hordes that you missed, going for a drive all night on the minibike. There are no zombies that can easily immobilize vehicles yet.

How can people be allowed to move around the map with a Nomad playstyle?

Player placed blocks and items could have a "Value" rating, and that could raise horde difficulty...more established bases get hit harder in a way that matches more closely the player's progression based on blocks, traps, chests, forges etc placed in an area.

This would cause any horde attack on a "new" area to be lessened so nomads would have a chance, and players could choose to move around a bit over time or if their last based was mostly destroyed beyond being repaired.

The trade off being Nomads have an easier time vs the hordes, but will progress slower overall and have to deal with a sometimes higher risk and different risks from not having a well established base.

I think you bring up a good point here and I don’t think TFP have addressed this yet and I’m sure they’ll think of something when they get to it.

I imagine they’d use the already implemented map heat system. Players in an area with high map heat have bases, players in areas with no or low map head are nomads.

We need to start having horde "types" or having them specialized vs certain types of defenses...which can be random.

Hordes may be mostly heavy hitters to break down fortifications and wear down heavy trap setups.

Hordes might be mostly swarm/high mobility types such as dogs/spiders/vultures to chase down fleeing players as well as dig/climb/fly over walls and traps more easily. ( Spiders should take minimal damage for climbing over spikes etc )

Balanced hordes to present an overall challenge.

Maybe even a situation to where survivors or raiders attack on horde night before a horde in desperation to find shelter from the oncoming tides of undead, with random specialized setups.

Essentially players might think they have it figured out until they randomly hit the right kind of raid or horde combination to overwhelm their defenses...or progress far enough into the game to where new horde types start showing up.

You will always have to fear what may come and never know exactly what you may be facing while always trying to optimize your base to handle new varied threats and horde/raid combos.

I like this idea a lot, it has potential and much room for expansion.

You should read my post on my thread here:

The Behemoth Update

I think this is missing another question:
Which rewards can hordes offer making it worth fighting them?

For me, the reward is always the XP from the zombies, as well as any good loot they drop.

I think this is partially addressed in A17. Roland has confirmed that zombie loot won’t get lost anymore. There weren’t much specifics but I imagine this means corpse blocks that break or de-spawn will transfer loot to a nearby adjacent corpse block or something similar. I’ve seen talk about special zombies having more unique loot lists but I’m not sure if that’s made it into A17 but if it has that means more unique loot deliveries on BM from zombies.

"They eat up so much ammo/ other resources and barely give anything back for the week-long preparation put in."

Correct. I agree. This is because high “game stage” BM hasn’t been balanced well and I think TFP will revisit this too. I go into more detail on this in my comment on my thread here:

A talk about "high game stage" blood moons

In that post you will see my modded solutions to this issue.

My favorite being minable minerals to smelt brass and increase to nitrate and coal yeilds.

I think some people see hordes as a condition for survival...like eating food, you dont get a grand reward for doing it, you just survive to play the game longer.

I agree.

Personally I think the hordes should be more focused towards being an aspect of survival, as they are at the top of the list on things you have to survive, and without them, most of the challenge of the game evaporates.

I agree

You can eventually work on ways to make people face them, I suppose thats the concept of this post...in your example of Multiplayer with people logging out you can always have the AI process at a lower level and cause various random levels of damage to bases that were "active" recently, as a quick example if people log off for horde night

I have an idea that is a potential solution for this. I planned to post it in my thread but I haven’t yet so I’ll write it here.

A configurable timer for quitting/closing the game to prevent combat loggers. Receiving damage should interrupt the timer. If the game is forcibly closed the avatar should remain in game until the timer is finished.

I have no issue with adding a reward system to defeating them however, and if the game calculated a value for how well you did and had a plane drop a supply crate on your location based on zombies killed, how they were killed, number of player deaths etc, that would be fine as well.
They could even have the traders offer quests, discounts or special inventory that last a week based on it as well.

However giving out various rewards for the horde is going to be something to sort after you sort their survival aspect first, and a much easier prospect to be honest.

I don’t believe in any extra rewards for BM hordes. The reward is the XP and LOOOOT.

Personally, I think they are going too far with a whole bunch of things. They have a map that is so big that it becomes almost impossible to explore it properly.They're making buildings so risky to explore that any looting or quests will take an age to tackle, or will have to be done with a 'do it and die' attitude, which is contrary to the purpose of the game.

They're making hordes more threatening and destructive, so you have to waste more and more time and resources on defending and repairing a base.

They're essentially squeezing survival out of the game by making it too hard to survive. Progression and exploration will slow to a crawl as so much time gets lost to defence.

As for the trap of break out floors - I think its a lousy strategy. Might as well just spawn a cop on top of the player if you want to be that evil.

Disagree entirely.

If they gave each player placed block etc a value this would also help out MP, to where you have a single new guy in a small base getting less powerful hordes while a 5 person party in a well established huge base would get a massive one.
Just thought of another issue it'd help mitigate/solve.

This is already a feature in A16. It’s called game staging. Game stage is a value that is the sum of days survived and player level. So a level 100 who hasn’t died for 100 days has game stage of 200.

BM hordes spawn for each player and scaled based of game stage.

So 1 new guy will get 1 weak horde.

And a party of 5 guys with a well established base will get 5 horse that are likely to be higher game staged.

This topic is always so controversial because of the community split with people who don't want to fight the horde and those that do. It's fine to take away all the ways to avoid the horde but if they do then give people who don't want to fight them the option to turn off 7 day hordes.

I Agree

The game's performance is also bad. Large hordes destroy FPS, especially if in a city unless you have an amazing PC.

A17 sounds like it’s going to have amazing performance optimization coming from a variety of places in the code. But currently, in A16, I have an enthusiast top market top generation PC build, 1080ti OC, 8700k CPU, 32GB DDR4, R/W 3500MBps/2300MBps SSD. I can’t run the game at max graphics. And I drop to 10fps sometimes. It’s an alpha.

If you could turn off the warning weather and make horde days random they might be kind of interesting.

I’m always for more configurations, even if it’s xml exclusive.

You want realism? Go try punching a concrete wall with your bare fists and tell me, how much damage you've done to it.
I´m all in for more varied horde tactics, but concrete is concrete and rotten flesh is rotten flesh. Same goes for the radiated Z's. Show me that type of concrete that gets damage by radiation over a short period of time. It simply doesn't happen.

It seems you forgot that zombies have sledge hammer hands. But yeah I think their block damage could use a nerf so that we could have bigger hordes, I miss those old days.

More type of zombies // more complex gameplay.

Agree

 

[Sinz]

Removing the game's namesake, or allowing it to be bypassed or turned off, I think is asking too much...it is very literally the name of the game.

You know, in early alphas, every night was horde night. Back in those alphas the game could handle A LOT more zeds. Every night they would get xray vision and every zombie spawned in for miles would come running.

But I agree. Ballance comes first, and I imagine that’s what TFP have planned. There is already an option to off zombies, but an option to change BM frequency or set it to random would be nice.

So far as performance or FPS concerns, the game is in alpha, and there is no reason to assume it's optimized or cant handle large hordes in the future.
( I personally have never had any issue with the hordes so far as performance, 1080@60 FPS...A13 was the last time I dropped below that at all really )

Agree.

You lucky son of a AJLOKGHSDLJKHNBDGS

We need new incentives.
- Something valuable and special but it only has a chance to spawn and or appear in loot crates at night

- Horde nights have a bigger chance to get (special) items or trinkets.

Something that doesn't appear during the day or during regular gametime. Otherwise the only benefit is extra loot time with a MUCH higher chance of dieing. I would have no clue what the extra items could be but. Something in that direction could make horde nights and nights in general interesting AND feel more rewarding.

Again with the dying light reference.... I just love that game. During the night you get the special zombies right. Killing and or looting with those near could yield something different. Special set of skills? Raw rare materials? Something to make it engaging.

That's 100% missing in vanilla 7days at the moment.

Agree

Again I dont mean to offend you or sound superior, but I have played games to a thousand days and never seen a horde that drops me blow 60 FPS at 1080...my computer is not state of the art, but it is a gaming computer.

This doesn’t add up. I assume you’re running min graphics settings on the high impact settings.

Implement the following things, some of which I think are in the game already, but should perhaps be default.
-Buff zombie speed, doesn't have to be running, but make it 30-50% faster than current.

-Make day/night zombie speed the same.

-Make head trauma necessary for killing zombies, you should still be able to dismember.

-Make it much slower to build stuff. Let us put up the framework at no/little cost, and then let us "fill in" the materials by working on buildings, but no more of the instant placement of stuff, make it take time to build stuff.

-Make a weight system for inventory, such that we can't dig a hole where the earth magically dissapears into our "bag of holding", such that it's inconvenient to dig holes, you need to move the dirt out of the hole, and that would take a lot of time.

-Fix zombie count, find a way to have hundreds on screen at the same time, with thousands active in a loaded cell.

-Allow safe bases, but make it so players need to leave their bases often enough, and leaving home should be where the danger lies, not with zombies scratching the walls.

I’m glad there are other people out there with the same desires as me. I’m currently working on a detailed write up that’s nearly the same as what you’ve described. I’ll probably be modding my A17 to do most of this too.

I imagine with settings like this, players will have pools of zombies outside their walls that they wont kill lol.

The main addition this needs is a way for zombies to do more block damage to certain, weaker materials when standing in groups (push force).

 

[Mytheos]

I just dont get it. Why is all of this such a problem? Why do people think that the AI in A17 is going to change all that much?
Spinning zombies? It was a 1 in 20 glitch. This will hardly change anything in A17.

Digging down? While I agree something should be done to increase the challenge, I am under the impression only certain types will be able to do so and only on horde night. It just means doing as much fortifying vertically as well as horizontally. Again, how does this make the game "so different those people who plan to exploit the game will rue the day"?

Running/faster? Thats already an option, and that will not change.

Hitblock aiming? Bad defense design might be impacted? Decent concrete structure, wood spikes, and making sure home base and horde base are separate will not be effected. Wandering hordes walk right by a good base. Hordes should always be dealt with away from your home.

And why does everyone always ignore the greatest exploit this game has that will not get addressed? A six pack of beer and I can dance around a maxalive=200 gamestage=3000 day 100+ horde all night with no armor. I dont even have to kill a single zombie. Just run around in circles like a track star avoiding a group of 5 year olds playing tag. This is the most oppressive feature in the game, exploited by the stream-team themselves. Why is underground bunkers so disdained, but this is OK? The haters keep saying that because the exploit exists, it ruins thier game even if they refuse to use it. What about beer and running around then?

And before you label me, my gameplay is not what you think. I enjoy that constant rush to make things better each week. I defeat (or get demolished) by hordes through hard work and continually improving designs. If the horde progression is not keeping up with my pace, I up the difficulty. I have a home base design that kills the screamers while I sleep and have a dozen forges raging away. I have horde bases properly spaced away that are at ground level and use the intended tools provided by the developers that do not use exploits. I kill cops with explosives. I repair and actively repel while my defenses are performing thier job and get a thrill when day comes and I survived.

Nothing I have seen from the entire AI discussion will have a greater impact than what can be done with the main settings and xml edits. And since those have always been there.............

Running around in the dark drinking beer isnt as OP as you make it out to be..."can" it be done? Sure.

However all you need for failure is a random stun, getting stuck on a bush/rock tree, or simply running into a crawler in the grass you didnt see.

It far from trivializes hordes...especially when you start having multiple cops spit at you in the dark you cant see coming well.

 

[Mytheos]

A simple way to make it worth fighting hordes is to increase the amount of loot dropped by horde zombies. Lets say by 100%. This makes it almost guaranteed that every zombie drops SOMETHING at the very least. And the zombies who do drop good loot like bloated walkers, will drop double the loot. For example if they dropped 24 steel arrows, you will get 48. It sounds like a small change and it is, but the loot will quickly add up as you loot all the corpses.
And most importantly: ADD THE FEATURE TO TURN OFF 7 DAY HORDES. Yes I know it's 7 days to die. But we will never get anywhere if we ignore half of the playerbase. If they don't want bloodmoons then fine, one button is all it takes to fix that. Meanwhile the rest of us madlads can have fun fighting waves of updated zombies

This is for modders, not the developers.

Its a waste of their time to make a menu for 1,000 different options to cater to every play style under the sun...you know you are asking for something out of scope, when you ask for the primary concept and point of the game to be turned off...