PC New content vs game mechanic overhauls

theFlu said:
Nope, but it makes your feigned aggro about game dev taking ages look a little silly. Just because you get upset about things taking time, things will still take time. It's not like Beth wouldn't have released theirs after a decade if it was anywhere near functional, but even they knew not to.
Click to expand...


How is this about "Feigned aggro" or me being "Upset"?

I'm sorry, do you know me? I wasn't aware that you knew me personally and were appraised of my mood.

Perhaps when someone says something you don't like you should respond with a relevant argument in return instead of putting it down to thier mood.

I was making a statement - 10 years and still saying a game is in EA is both poor and a joke.

The fact that some other developer has been developing a game for ages is just a false equivalence.

Pathetic.

 
Lasher said:
I'm sorry, do you know me?
Click to expand...
No, no I don't; we're on the anonymous side of the internet. It's a place where I try to assume the best of everyone, in this case "this guy can't be serious" turned into "yeah, he's probably not, so he's just enjoying some aggravated trolling" and I went with that. But sure, feel free to stay in character.

In that case, since we're pretending you're dead serious it's an absolute travesty for a game to be developed for a decade; it should be easy to point to a few examples of comparable games that went from kickstarter to gold in what.. three years? Fivers should be trivial.

If you can't find a good match, well, please do point to Something to justify the ridicule. Otherwise I'll just go on with my initial pair of assumptions ;)

 
I'm always baffled when people get upset that the game isn't fully released yet.  When it releases there is no guarantee that they will like the state it's in. It could be buggy or half-baked. TFP could have settled on a progression system or game-loop that they dislike.  Enjoy the ride while it lasts. There's no guarantee as to what it will look like when it releases and there is no guarantee how long it will receive support or DLC afterwards. While it's possible there will be some performance improvements, there's only so much they can do in a game built on blocks with a fully destroyable and modifiable environment. If wishes were ponies, beggars would ride.

 
ungkor said:
Lots of good discussion.  Thanks everyone.

I guess my bottom line is, its been something like 10 years.  You'd think that after a decade, they could have decided on a the basic leveling/looting mechanics, and moved on to making the game grander and bigger.
Click to expand...


The basic leveling didn't change, they overhauled how you learn crafting recipes.

 
meganoth said:
The basic leveling didn't change, they overhauled how you learn crafting recipes.
Click to expand...
I'm more referring to the last 10  years of changes.  Not just this recent alpha 21 change.   Leveling, looting, perks, and basic game mechanics have been changing for years. 

 
theFlu said:
No, no I don't; we're on the anonymous side of the internet. It's a place where I try to assume the best of everyone, in this case "this guy can't be serious" turned into "yeah, he's probably not, so he's just enjoying some aggravated trolling" and I went with that. But sure, feel free to stay in character.

In that case, since we're pretending you're dead serious it's an absolute travesty for a game to be developed for a decade; it should be easy to point to a few examples of comparable games that went from kickstarter to gold in what.. three years? Fivers should be trivial.

If you can't find a good match, well, please do point to Something to justify the ridicule. Otherwise I'll just go on with my initial pair of assumptions ;)
Click to expand...


Go right ahead with your assumptions - only they're not assumptions - they're logical fallacies.

For a start you've attempted to straw man my argument by making it over simplified "Oh, it's just trolling" - logical fallacy number one.

It's not just that the game has taken 10 years. It's that the game has taken 10 years, still seems to be unsure about it's direction in many areas and is still using "It's in early access" as an excuse for any problems.

Secondly you've decided that it's perfectly fine for a game like 7 Days to die to take 10 years to develop - you can't believe otherwise - thats the Personal Incredulity fallacy - also present in your statement that I "can't be serious".

I'm very serious - and if you want to shill for TFP that's up to you - it's a very common modus operandi on these forums.

Thirdly you've decided to make it all about me - "Trolling", "This guy", "Stay in character" - that's what we call the Ad Hominem fallacy - supporting your argument by making it about the other party.

You know nothing about me whatsoever - but stick to your "assumptions"

Fourthly you've already used False equivalence - "It's ok for this to take 10 years because that took 10 years" - yet another failure of logic.

You're really building yourself quite the collection there, but if you disagree with my opinon you might want to avoid reponding in a way that makes you look quite as silly as it does.

Besides which you're clearly not someone that I want to debate with - I don't enjoy punching down.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ungkor said:
I'm more referring to the last 10  years of changes.  Not just this recent alpha 21 change.   Leveling, looting, perks, and basic game mechanics have been changing for years. 
Click to expand...


Ah, ok. Well, TFP's "story" is that A) most of the systems in the game were placeholders they had to include first so they had a workable game for Early Access and B) that they use EA for real alpha development (where actually experiments and redesigns seem to be quite normal) and their development method is heavily on the side of experimentation.

I think they never said it, but my impression from watching the development over the years is that their goal nr.1 is that they want an original game, i.e. one with features and mechanics that do not mirror other games. A player can be sad about it when he feels there are concepts out there that have proven effective, or he can be happy because he gets something different to play than elsewhere.

But the thing is, to make something original and make it work you have to experiment, a lot. Copycats have it easier and develop faster.

 
It's obvious they have no plan on the direction of the game. You only have to look at what the last 5 versions and all the system overhauls. Now we're getting to version 21 and who knows how many more. This is the issue with early access and getting all the money they did up front. They have no focus anymore to finish the game, they are just throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks.

 
Oh, cool, Logical Fallacies, straight from wikipedia, mostly misapplied... oh well. At least there's couple great examples of someone deving a game even slightly better? Oh, wait. No there isn't?

Lasher said:
For a start you've attempted to straw man my argument by making it over simplified "Oh, it's just trolling" - logical fallacy number one.
Click to expand...


Straw man... should be attacking an argument you haven't made. Implication of "Trolling" isn't an argument, not from me nor falsely from you. Trolling is a noble sport, enjoyed by all ages above 4; it's not even a proper ad hominem, I'm not trying to address your argument when I describe your behaviour there. At worst, it's an honest insult.. ;)

Personal incredulity .. yeah, got me there. I still can't believe you're being serious; can you blame me? Still kinda looking for that example of someone doing something similar, that much better. Dev takes time. Stating the state of reality isn't "weak", you just don't like it. Ruf.

 
theFlu said:
Oh, cool, Logical Fallacies, straight from wikipedia, mostly misapplied... oh well. At least there's couple great examples of someone deving a game even slightly better? Oh, wait. No there isn't?

Straw man... should be attacking an argument you haven't made. Implication of "Trolling" isn't an argument, not from me nor falsely from you. Trolling is a noble sport, enjoyed by all ages above 4; it's not even a proper ad hominem, I'm not trying to address your argument when I describe your behaviour there. At worst, it's an honest insult.. ;)

Personal incredulity .. yeah, got me there. I still can't believe you're being serious; can you blame me? Still kinda looking for that example of someone doing something similar, that much better. Dev takes time. Stating the state of reality isn't "weak", you just don't like it. Ruf.
Click to expand...


Unlike you I didn't have to go and look up logical fallacies on wikipedia.

Someone deving a game better? Now it's my turn to think you're not being serious.

You'd be hard pushed to come up with a game being deved WORSE.

You actally want examples of better deved games?

Firstly - everything - but how about

Valheim

Grim Dawn

Deep Rock Galactic

V Rising

Last Epoch

Or 90 of the titles out there.

Go look at Spacebourne 2 - That's an example of a small team - and look at the progress.

And they don't use early access as an excuse for not getting the job done after selling milions of copies.

Again I really don't want to argue it with you - you don't have an arguement.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Greymantle said:
It's obvious they have no plan on the direction of the game. You only have to look at what the last 5 versions and all the system overhauls. Now we're getting to version 21 and who knows how many more. This is the issue with early access and getting all the money they did up front. They have no focus anymore to finish the game, they are just throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks.
Click to expand...


Again- This.

 
Lasher said:
You'd be hard pushed to come up with a game being deved WORSE.
Click to expand...


Couldn't resist  😁

Duke Nukem Forever

Star Citizen

Those 2 came easily to mind.  And that doesn't include the games that were abandoned in early access.

 
BFT2020 said:
Couldn't resist  😁

Duke Nukem Forever

Star Citizen

Those 2 came easily to mind.  And that doesn't include the games that were abandoned in early access.
Click to expand...
Ha! - I'll give you those that's for sure.

Duke is just an industry joke now - and Star Citizen? Well who knows - I think they vanished into the vortex of "Feature creep" and I'm not sure there's a way out...

 
This is an interesting thread.  Adding new content will increase dev time and further push out that 1.0 release. 

Pushing out the 1.0 release further will make players upset dev time takes too long...🤔

If anything, the team not releasing new content (that isnt on the kickstarter) IS a commitment to finishing the game finally. 

As far as "reworking existing game mechanics," that is really just fixing systems that are either broken/placeholder or not working 100% to their design.  I know this one is a tough one to adapt to as folks get use to older gameplay mechanics.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Laz Man said:
This is an interesting thread.  Adding new content will increase dev time and further push out that 1.0 release. 
Click to expand...
This is not necessarily true. It depends on what content you are talking about and if it contributes to whatever is bottlenecking your project.

if for example in the case of the fun pimps if the big thing preventing a release of content is nailing down the ai of some bandits  so that they are fun without murdering resources then progress to the next release is really not going to care much is someone decides to make another 100 high resolution asset replacements for various objects in the world.

This is probably why alpha 21 has so many new assets in the world.  They weren't the bottleneck and they did not actively impede the progress of whatever the bottleneck is  

 
saltychipmunk said:
This is not necessarily true. It depends on what content you are talking about and if it contributes to whatever is bottlenecking your project.

if for example in the case of the fun pimps if the big thing preventing a release of content is nailing down the ai of some bandits  so that they are fun without murdering resources then progress to the next release is really not going to care much is someone decides to make another 100 high resolution asset replacements for various objects in the world.

This is probably why alpha 21 has so many new assets in the world.  They weren't the bottleneck and they did not actively impede the progress of whatever the bottleneck is  
Click to expand...


I guess it depends what people consider new content.  For example, adding more vehicles and more zombies when bandit characters are not done yet is a good example of "new content" that would delay the 1.0 release.  

ungkor said:
Lots of good discussion.  Thanks everyone.

I guess my bottom line is, its been something like 10 years.  You'd think that after a decade, they could have decided on a the basic leveling/looting mechanics, and moved on to making the game grander and bigger.

Surely they must have enough money at this point to hire tons of developers and make this game move forward.  

As a developer myself, I've never, ever, seen any software product in an 'alpha stage' for a decade.   The excuse of "well, its just in alpha" is getting a bit tiring after 10 years.   Make a decision about the skills, perks, and basic game mechanics, and start moving the game forward in terms of content and expansions.   Stop hiding behind the idea that "oh, we are just a small team".  10 years... If they aren't making a ton of money, they are doing something wrong business-wise. 

They've sold 10 million copies according to wikipedia.  How can you not make a robust, expansive, finished and polished game at this point.   At this rate, it will be in alpha for the next 10 years, with every other new release completely overhauling the skills and perks each time.   
Click to expand...


Yep, the development of the game has certainly taken a long time.  Being fairly new to the team myself, I can't directly speak to the earlier years of development.  All I can say at this point is the main focus right now is to finish the remaining main features promised in the original kickstarter (e.g. bandits, story, etc.).  Significant progress has been made into these missing features, its just they didn't get into A21 because they are not done yet.

While those features are being completed, other systems will be buttoned up, optimized, and fixed where needed.  

 
are you actually asking for another title full of dumb content ?
i cherrish them for trying their best with what they have.
we have enough games that keep releasing "content" and dont fix their game, probably appealing to audience like yourself, lol.
runescape
wow
ark
 

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top