PC New AI + Zombie block damage is kind of OP. At least scale it to gamestage?

jdifran

jdifran

Refugee
Three rows of spikes around a 2m thick cobblestone fort and they blew through the spikes and walls in under 30 seconds on Day 7 while I was shooting them from above as fast as I could. (Of course, once they had a way in they stopped busting walls, so the damage to the base was actually quite minimal.)

I'm not saying it was a perfect base design, but thirty seconds on the first horde night is a recipe for new players to ragequit this game.

I think a reasonable solution would be for zombie block damage to scale with gamestage. At least new players (or those who've already had a few deaths) will have a chance to survive early hordes without getting too frustrated.

On the other hand, after I respawned on my bedroll I grabbed a couple things and took off running. I was surprised at how long it took them to catch up to me. I expected them to be on my heels the whole way, but I was easily able to outrun them. I nearly made it the rest of the night but did end up dying again (when I foolishly tried to fight a few of them off).

If this doesn't get a balancing pass, then I'm not sure there's any point in actually trying to defend a base on horde night. It might be less frustrating to just build a 4x4x6 tower of cobblestone blocks surrounded by a ♥♥♥♥load of spikes and fight from there. Have a bedroll someplace other than the main base (and pretty far away) with some easy-to-grab backup gear (and food/water/crush), so when death comes I can just grab it and try to outrun them the rest of the night.

 
Don't think diffculty level effects block damage, least I never noticed it doing so in a16, the thing with horde night is or so i've heard that there is a new "horde buff" that the more zombies are close together they get a buff to block damage. Either that or its because they actually can aim now, they only do 20 block damage for normal zombies, but when you have 5+ of them hitting the same block with good accuarcy, its going to rip thru a 1500 hp block in 15 seconds possibly. So its not so much their block damage, but the fact the AI can actually aim now compared to a16 where they would often hit the wrong blocks insted of the one right in front of them.

The key I see is not to sit in one spot when defending, move around the base to get them to try to chase you, form some pillars around the outside that you can jump around just to lure them away from that spot for a time. Also barbed wire is useful, it does 1 damage, but it causes the pain animation, which means when they in that animation they can't hit things, I'd put the barded wire 2 thick right against my walls, with 2 rows of spikes to weaken them out on the outside. Or even alternate 1 spike, 1 barbed wire, 1 spike, 1 barbed wire.

The old strat of just toss down spikes doesn't work anymore, the AI will actually try to avoid the spikes once there is a clear path. The best advice I can give is make a killbox base, a base with deliberate weakspots to get the horde to hit there first, the horde spawning will spawn the horde coming at your weakest area, so you can sort of bait them to into a kill zone.

 
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Oh, trust me, I tried to move around and kite them to different areas. They ignored me and focused on busting down the wall in one spot. Now, I'm not complaining about the AI - I think faatal did an amazing job and it's a huge improvement over all previous releases. I just think they're too efficient at actually destroying blocks, especially if they are focusing fire and getting bonuses to block damage.

These are supposed to be mindless creatures, so maybe some randomness should be added. I wonder if their perfect knowledge of SI means that as soon as one zombie hits one block (which then becomes the weakest link), all others just focus on that block. The teamwork strains a bit of believability. Maybe there's a way to limit how many zombies can attack a single block?

I don't know. As I said in my OP, if this doesn't get toned down a little or scaled with gamestage, then I just won't keep my stuff in the same base that I use for horde night. At least not until I have turrets. :)

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What is your difficulty level?
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My difficulty level is the default. I think the only option I've actually changed is to flag air drops.

 
Try barbed wire fences. They are much more effective in A17. The zombies get stuck allowing easier headshots and they have decent health. And the zombies seem less likely to path around them.

 
They all chose the quickest, easiest path to you, which means they all focused on the same block at the same time, then the next, then the next, and so on. When breaking though walls, I believe they attack top block first, then bottom block. The reason they broke through so fast is because they were all following a more precise path in unison.

This means it may be easier to manipulate their actions, by giving them an "easier" route to follow. Maybe leave a path open for them to move through, using traps in a corridor to slow them down and hurt them as they pass through.

 
Can you craft barbed wire traps with just wood and scrap iron? Because I'm nowhere close to building a forge.

 
One thing that I don't think TFP considered when tweaking block damage is that zeds ignore physics. You can have eight or nine zeds hitting a block simultaneously, so even the toughest block is about as useful as tissue paper. This not only kills immersion, it makes base building boring and pointless, since you spend about 60% of a game day repairing your base instead of having cool adventures.

IN MP, where you can have more division of labor this might be less of an issue, but it's still bad design. For SP, your base should be your safe haven if it is reasonably well planned, and all the dangerous stuff should be outside so that you don't spend all your game time repairing blocks.

I edited the items file and set zombie block damage to 1, but even that is high. The zeds can take out an iron reinforced door (300 points) in seconds if you're not repairing. If you are repairing, you will use up tons of scrap iron, not to mention standing there like an idiot clicking a door all night. I have set all but the biggest zeds to only do .1 damage, though I am not sure if they can do less than one point per hit. In A16 you could have modifiers based on the material, but I am not quite sure how the new damage modifier works.

 
They all chose the quickest, easiest path to you, which means they all focused on the same block at the same time, then the next, then the next, and so on. When breaking though walls, I believe they attack top block first, then bottom block. The reason they broke through so fast is because they were all following a more precise path in unison.
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Yep.

This means it may be easier to manipulate their actions, by giving them an "easier" route to follow. Maybe leave a path open for them to move through, using traps in a corridor to slow them down and hurt them as they pass through.
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Sure you could probably get them to path to a particular place by building your base extremely symmetrically with one weak spot. Of course by its nature a weak spot is not going to offer much protection so I see very little advantage to this. Once they're in your base you're boned.

Strikes me that traditional bases are largely useless in A17 unless they make their pathing algorithm less robotic. I'm honestly stumped as to how to face the day 7 hordes, especially solo. Might just disable them entirely - they never were my favorite feature of the game.

 
Sure you could probably get them to path to a particular place by building your base extremely symmetrically with one weak spot. Of course by its nature a weak spot is not going to offer much protection so I see very little advantage to this. Once they're in your base you're boned.
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I was talking about creating a way in that the zombies will path through with certainty, allowing you to set traps that will either kill them outright, or (as in early game) slow them down and damage them while you kill them. Barbed wire through a one block corridor might do it. Might have to have a second floor that you can attack from while they mill around beneath you on more traps. Let them THINK they've got a good path to you, only to fall prey to the very math that compels them, lol.

 
You would think all zombies had a sledgehammer in their hand with the amount of block damage they do. In the past a simple iron reinforced door would take a zombie a decent amount of time to break it. Now? Zombies can break down those doors like it’s a piece of cardboard, with their rotting fists of all things,

 
Can you craft barbed wire traps with just wood and scrap iron? Because I'm nowhere close to building a forge.
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Yes you can, it just uses iron and wood, so you can make them anytime even at level 1.

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You would think all zombies had a sledgehammer in their hand with the amount of block damage they do. In the past a simple iron reinforced door would take a zombie a decent amount of time to break it. Now? Zombies can break down those doors like it’s a piece of cardboard, with their rotting fists of all things,
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Its not 1 zombie thats the problem, it still takes 1 zombie a while to bust thru things, its when you have 2+ and they focus fire the same thing, I've seen 7 zombies hitting the same block once, even at 20 block dmg a swing per zombie, that adds up very quickly, 140/1.5s or so, cobblestone has 1500 hp, so around 10-12 seconds a block if they are all focusing it. These are just the weakest zombies in terms of block damage, the utility workers and fatties are like sledgehammers.

 
Yeah, that's probably not intended. Faatal said he's still got a lot of tweaking and fixes to do with the AI.

Honestly, the best fix would be if a zombie has one path, then no other zombie could use that same path (means more damage spread around instead of focused on one block), BUT it would cost so much more game resources to do that, it wouldn't be funny. So currently, all zombies being able to stack on one another and hit the same block uses less resources meaning better performance.

 
Yeah, that's probably not intended. Faatal said he's still got a lot of tweaking and fixes to do with the AI.
Honestly, the best fix would be if a zombie has one path, then no other zombie could use that same path (means more damage spread around instead of focused on one block), BUT it would cost so much more game resources to do that, it wouldn't be funny. So currently, all zombies being able to stack on one another and hit the same block uses less resources meaning better performance.
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Not sure if it could be done but maybe set a limit to what kind of of block damage a single block can take per second? and anything above that gets ignored. Assuming it can be made to apply to zombie only, for example cobblestone with a dmg cap of 50 per sec, would give you, 30s per block, compared to now when on a horde night they'll rip thru one in 10s or so, and this is only the first horde thats mostly the super easy zombies.

 
Not sure if it could be done but maybe set a limit to what kind of of block damage a single block can take per second? and anything above that gets ignored. Assuming it can be made to apply to zombie only, for example cobblestone with a dmg cap of 50 per sec, would give you, 30s per block, compared to now when on a horde night they'll rip thru one in 10s or so, and this is only the first horde thats mostly the super easy zombies.
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Hmmm, that would seem odd to me, lol. 5 zombies hitting a block, one is .5s slower than rest, does no damage, lol. Though on that same thought line, maybe the more zombies targeting a block, you have a lower percent of damage done to block to like a minimum, say 50%.

[table=width: 500, class: grid]

[tr]

[td]#T Block[/td]

[td]%dmg/zombie[/td]

[td]%dmg vs 1 zombie[/td]

[td]%dmg current[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]100[/td]

[td]100[/td]

[td]100[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]95[/td]

[td]190[/td]

[td]200[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]90[/td]

[td]270[/td]

[td]300[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]4[/td]

[td]85[/td]

[td]340[/td]

[td]400[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]5[/td]

[td]80[/td]

[td]400[/td]

[td]500[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]6[/td]

[td]75[/td]

[td]450[/td]

[td]600[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]7[/td]

[td]70[/td]

[td]490[/td]

[td]700[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]8[/td]

[td]65[/td]

[td]520[/td]

[td]800[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]9[/td]

[td]60[/td]

[td]540[/td]

[td]900[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]10[/td]

[td]55[/td]

[td]550[/td]

[td]1000[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]11[/td]

[td]52[/td]

[td]572[/td]

[td]1100[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]12[/td]

[td]50[/td]

[td]600[/td]

[td]1200[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]13[/td]

[td]50[/td]

[td]650[/td]

[td]1300[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

etc. etc.

Even change those around a bit if needed. That way blocks will still fall faster the more zombies are targetting the block, but it won't be full damage which drops blocks quite fast. As above examples, 1 zombie of 100% damage vs 5 zombies of 400% damage compared to 1 zombie (currently would be 5 zombies of 500% damage compared to 1 zombie.). But you get my drift. Some form of that.

This way, early on, they're still a threat, but as you get more and more, they're a threat from numbers more than damage, so even though it's barely 6.5x more damage from 13 zombies instead of 1 (current would be 13x more damage), by doing it this way, you are not completely screwed with lots of zombies but they can still do lots of damage if you ignore them. Gives time to kill them.

 
I was talking about creating a way in that the zombies will path through with certainty, allowing you to set traps that will either kill them outright, or (as in early game) slow them down and damage them while you kill them. Barbed wire through a one block corridor might do it. Might have to have a second floor that you can attack from while they mill around beneath you on more traps. Let them THINK they've got a good path to you, only to fall prey to the very math that compels them, lol.
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Given that the zombies path around traps it is clear that their pathing has some weight for traps. As such if you place too many traps in one area the algorithm will choose to tunnel through a wall instead. Basically if you want lots of traps to stop a horde you should make sure that every other point of your base has very thick walls. Unfortunately without spawning zombies in creative there is no obvious way to test whether you have the right balance of traps and thick walls.

 
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