PC My Review of the Perks

[Ghostlight]

AGILITY - I disagree about Sneak Attack and From the Shadows. Sneak attack is really strong pairing with a fully modded crossbow. Headshot damage in on par with sniper rifle and I don't need silencer.

Oh? I haven't tried a crossbow in A17 for some time but last time I did it was LOUD as all hell and useless for a Stealth build. Have they changed this? For Sneak to work imo, you need to be able to kill stuff without waking up other stuff, and I could not get that to work whenever I tried it. Also, tier 5 quests can take all day to finish, time is the enemy, and sneaking just feels too slow to me. I prefer to wake everything and charge in like a crazy thing; one way or another, the fight will be quick.

Well, I'm a builder and so far From the Shadows works great, my lucky could come to an end, but so far I've been mining (underground) all night and no problem.

OK in that case, I do not understand this perk then. The way it reads, an enemy that would normally have line of sight on you will not have it if you are in shadows with this perk. That is quite different from being able to be out of their line of sight completely and yet avoid them digging down. SO basically we are saying that the effect that causes surface zombies to dig down to the player is based on them having line of sight? Because that makes no sense. I thought it was Heat or noise, neither of which is mitigated by this perk.

- - - Updated - - -

Anytime you want to do mining undisturbed?
Recently our co-op group have been digging in a top-down mine a lot and when we used augers+headlight+not stealthed we got screamers every few minutes, maybe 5-10 in a single day. In the night my co players left for other things and I used pickaxe+stealthed and even with headlight on had 0 screamers the whole night (with From the Shadows at 3)

You alone underground with a Pick would not generate Screamers with or without this perk. Augers on the other hand generate a ton of heat.

 

[RipClaw]

Anytime you want to do mining undisturbed?
Recently our co-op group have been digging in a top-down mine a lot and when we used augers+headlight+not stealthed we got screamers every few minutes, maybe 5-10 in a single day. In the night my co players left for other things and I used pickaxe+stealthed and even with headlight on had 0 screamers the whole night (with From the Shadows at 3)

This is because the pickaxe does not generate heat. Only the auger generates heat.

 

[madmole]

Why have crafting be connected to a stat at all? Why not just have a separate "crafting Menu" Melee / Blacksmith / Gunsmith / Bowsmith"? etc

You level you get 1 skill point and 1 crafting point?

Then you could tie quality to individual skills instead of a sweep of making everything X quality because of X int like we have now

Way more precise and lets folks specialize even more.

You could even tie in weapon / tool damage into the crafting choices too so the jack of all trades could do a little more damage than average and the specialist could do way more.

This is what I am proposing already. To craft a brown shotgun you buy one rank of shotgun messiah. To craft an orange you buy the 2nd, yellow etc. Pink will become the new "legendary" and everything will move up a notch, so brown will be like the current orange, because frankly brown items are worthless.

The other design is items have a crafting difficulty and your crafting skill for each item is a collection of points from various locations. Some from your shotgun messiah skill, some from perhaps a firearm crafting skill in INT, some from goggles, some from potions, or whatever. Stone axes would be low crafting difficulty, sniper rifles higher. More mod slights even higher.

 

[grukdon]

I agree with OP, the INT tree makes me sad.

I'd love to see the crafting be yanked out of the perk system altogether and put into it's own system.

It could still be similar to perks, whereas you get points to spend but with it's own experience system/bar. When you level you get a nice chunk of exp and, maybe enough for points in the early levels. Then you can bring in spam crafting for small bits of exp and crafting quests for burst exp. This allows for those that really want to play the crafter roll to do just that.

Still want an INT tree? Design that for archetypes, crafted axes are cheaper to make, swing faster (cause you know how to balance the axe better), etc. So now it's not a "crafting" perk but enhances your character. This would probably require the database to keep track of "crafted weapon". You could go wild with ideas, but I still think it would require moving crafting out of the perk system.

IMHO

Edit. Ladarian beat me to it.

 

[meganoth]

This is because the pickaxe does not generate heat. Only the auger generates heat.

Could be. I thought any noise and any light generates heat. Just like any noise or light might betray your position to a zombie.

How sure are you that your information is correct?

 

[Exxodous]

This is what I am proposing already. To craft a brown shotgun you buy one rank of shotgun messiah. To craft an orange you buy the 2nd, yellow etc. Pink will become the new "legendary" and everything will move up a notch, so brown will be like the current orange, because frankly brown items are worthless.
The other design is items have a crafting difficulty and your crafting skill for each item is a collection of points from various locations. Some from your shotgun messiah skill, some from perhaps a firearm crafting skill in INT, some from goggles, some from potions, or whatever. Stone axes would be low crafting difficulty, sniper rifles higher. More mod slights even higher.

Sounds like this would work well in SP games, but how does it feel in MP games for those who want to be strictly crafter/builder types?

For example my wife doesn't engage a lot in combat but she is our go to gal for all our weapon and armor needs. When a new player gets on she is able to equip them with all the necessary items because she focused primarily on INT. Under your proposed way would she have to invest in all these other skills she isn't using to be able to craft quality items for us? Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Cirion]

This is what I am proposing already. To craft a brown shotgun you buy one rank of shotgun messiah. To craft an orange you buy the 2nd, yellow etc. Pink will become the new "legendary" and everything will move up a notch, so brown will be like the current orange, because frankly brown items are worthless.
The other design is items have a crafting difficulty and your crafting skill for each item is a collection of points from various locations. Some from your shotgun messiah skill, some from perhaps a firearm crafting skill in INT, some from goggles, some from potions, or whatever. Stone axes would be low crafting difficulty, sniper rifles higher. More mod slights even higher.

Personally your first proposed idea not only makes more sense but also would be more enjoyable and provide more options to the player. IMO

I much prefer to spend a lesser amount of points to fully master one thing than be forced to spend a LOT of points to master "many things", just so that I can master the "one thing" I wanted (in this case, shotgun).

 

[lord_ahriman]

Oh? I haven't tried a crossbow in A17 for some time but last time I did it was LOUD as all hell and useless for a Stealth build. Have they changed this? For Sneak to work imo, you need to be able to kill stuff without waking up other stuff, and I could not get that to work whenever I tried it. Also, tier 5 quests can take all day to finish, time is the enemy, and sneaking just feels too slow to me. I prefer to wake everything and charge in like a crazy thing; one way or another, the fight will be quick.

Example: last time in the hospital I killed entire heliport and not a single zombie woke up. As I said, it's a playstyle and I feel confortable with crossbow.

OK in that case, I do not understand this perk then. The way it reads, an enemy that would normally have line of sight on you will not have it if you are in shadows with this perk. That is quite different from being able to be out of their line of sight completely and yet avoid them digging down. SO basically we are saying that the effect that causes surface zombies to dig down to the player is based on them having line of sight? Because that makes no sense. I thought it was Heat or noise, neither of which is mitigated by this perk.

From the Shadows do mitigate noise, take a look at the description. I know it was nerfed a bit in 17.1, early versions at rank 5 all noise while hidden are completely silent.

 

[madmole]

Personally your first proposed idea not only makes more sense but also would be more enjoyable and provide more options to the player. IMO
I much prefer to spend a lesser amount of points to fully master one thing than be forced to spend a LOT of points to master "many things", just so that I can master the "one thing" I wanted (in this case, shotgun).

Hah, the first one was my design, the 2nd one gazz's idea. His point is dedicated crafters are left out in the cold. We're still looking at a lot of ideas, crafting high quality items is really the only white whale we're trying to solve, the reorganization of perks is well met.

 

[madmole]

Sounds like this would work well in SP games, but how does it feel in MP games for those who want to be strictly crafter/builder types?
For example my wife doesn't engage a lot in combat but she is our go to gal for all our weapon and armor needs. When a new player gets on she is able to equip them with all the necessary items because she focused primarily on INT. Under your proposed way would she have to invest in all these other skills she isn't using to be able to craft quality items for us? Maybe I'm missing something?

Players who specialize in light armor can craft high quality light armor. There wouldn't be a dedicated crafter, just people who are good at various things they perked into. If you perk into bows, you can make great bows. You'd simply have to organize together who's good at what, like have one person good making light armor, one good at heavy armor, one good at making a few weapons etc.

Its just an idea. Nothing concrete yet. So if your a jack of all trades perk guy you will be jack of all trades crafter. If you specialize you'll be amazing at a few things, and craft amazing at the things that govern those items.

 

[FA_Q2]

Oh? I haven't tried a crossbow in A17 for some time but last time I did it was LOUD as all hell and useless for a Stealth build. Have they changed this? For Sneak to work imo, you need to be able to kill stuff without waking up other stuff, and I could not get that to work whenever I tried it. Also, tier 5 quests can take all day to finish, time is the enemy, and sneaking just feels too slow to me. I prefer to wake everything and charge in like a crazy thing; one way or another, the fight will be quick.

I an biased here because I like sneak games and sneaking mechanics but I found those perks really powerful. I don't know if my game is bugged or not but xbow never really did anything for me mostly because the damage just seems so much lower. The stat page shows my xbow as having half the damage of my compound. A good compound bow puts out a lot of damage, stone arrows are essentially free for the trash mobs and steel arrows tend to rape higher mobs before they can fully get off the ground. The early stages of the perks are pretty pointless because, as you pointed out, you tend to wake nearby foes anyway. Once you get 3 or so perks in each though you can start to dominate. I can clear most rooms without waking anything - the key is understanding how stealth works. I think a MAJOR problem right now with stealth is that there seems to be scripts or something like it somewhere that wakes mobs up - that needs to go. For now, if you avoid doors entirely - that means even ones you can open - then you may never get noticed at all. It is counter intuitive but it is quieter to knock down a wall than it is to open a door....

Finally, time is a much smaller factor for me considering I play mostly SP games. Combined with a stealth build - I am BETTER at clearing out a POI at night than I am during the day. Night seems to give you some rather large stealth boosts. I really hope NVGs get some love - I think they would be rather awesome for this type of play (not to mention coupled with the new books boosting night sneak damage when they come available)

 

[FA_Q2]

We're looking at redistributing weapons to various attributes so players no longer HAVE to have INT or STR. By specializing in axes, you'll be able to craft nice axes, little to no INT required. This way players can specialize on 1-2 attributes and feel pretty powerful instead of forced into jack of all trade perk selections. NEED str, NEED int, NEED this, NEED that. We're still talking about how to distribute crafting skill so non INT players are viable, yet people who want to be a specialized crafter also can be the INT guy.
Logically it made sense that INT controlled crafting quality, Perception controlled all firearm skills, STR controlled melee/mining but at the end of the day it doesn't make for player choice. So now agility will govern knives/bows/pistols because those are the goto stealth weapons and agility is the stealth skill. Every attribute will have a ranged and melee weapon perk it governs. Everything is moved around a bit, but with player archetypes in mind.

I'm still working on this design and need to sell it to the team but its looking getting some traction. Just need to finalize how to split up crafting perks.

Good to hear though expected. The current distribution does make logical sense but plays poorly. I think the largest problem along with the INT tree being a must is mining and melee being combined. That basically pigeonholes us into a melee build as mining is a MASSIVE part of the game. I want to play almost exclusively ranged and for the most part do and yet I still had heavy metal at 4 points before my perception even hit 3.

Those 5 points were just so damn cheap compared to the mountain that I had to place in BOTH perception and its sub-perk as well as agility and the sneak ones to outfit my combat build. It will be interesting to see how you guys balance the perks out.

I always thought the categories were not a good choice too - rather than strength, agility etc I think categorizing them as melee, ranged, craftsman, survivalist and miner makes more sense because then you can categorize them by play style rather than attributes that are not connected with actual game play.

 

[FA_Q2]

Miner69er (E)

Do not put points into this skill, ever? It's a tricky one. If all you care about is killing blocks fast, go for it, it's a B or C. However if you actually care about the amount of resource you get from mining etc, you should avoid it. The thing is there is bug with mining in A17 whereby the last hit you give to a block (which gives you the bonus yield) does NOT give the normal yield. So the yield lost depends how many HP the block had on that last swing (the more it had, the higher the loss). So while this skill means you will kill blocks faster, you will very often get LESS resource from blocks from these points. I just avoid them to be sure.

If you get 10% fewer resources from a block but kill it in 50% of the time you are making massive gains in resource per unit time of mining - the only thing that actually matters for underground miners IMHO. While I think they need to address the odd way resources work, this perk is still really useful for underground mining.

Better Barter ©

Great early game, useless late game. I hate spending points in skills that fall into that category, so this one gets a middling rating.

I feel the exact opposite. I find this perk almost pointless early game other than the possibility to purchase a few mods. Late game though, this is the ONLY way to obtain solar cells and I HATE using resources to power my base when there is a resource free method out there.

Likely not worth it in the long run as gas is so plentiful but hey - free is free

 

[iBane]

Players who specialize in light armor can craft high quality light armor. There wouldn't be a dedicated crafter, just people who are good at various things they perked into. If you perk into bows, you can make great bows. You'd simply have to organize together who's good at what, like have one person good making light armor, one good at heavy armor, one good at making a few weapons etc.
Its just an idea. Nothing concrete yet. So if your a jack of all trades perk guy you will be jack of all trades crafter. If you specialize you'll be amazing at a few things, and craft amazing at the things that govern those items.

Personally I like things just how they are.

 

[suicidalhamster]

good guide, thanks. i agree with most and the ones i have a different opinion of are only due to my individual play style. still all valid points.

as far as the way the perks play out, i feel they have good intentions but are limited by the fact everything is extremely linear. one of the other games i play has a perk tree that is extremely flexible and a few overlap in different parts of the tree simply due to the fact that those skills apply to multiple professions. this link will show the spiderweb style they have adapted.

the best part of this style is that each choice leads to 2-4 more choices and there multiple pathways you can take to reach the same perk (helpful if you dont like the perks on a certain path).

to be clear, i'm not suggesting TFP do this, i am just offering a (player) accepted example of a non-linear perk tree that would offer build flexibility.

 

[Umbrella]

Hi !

Miner69er (E)Do not put points into this skill, ever? It's a tricky one. If all you care about is killing blocks fast, go for it, it's a B or C. However if you actually care about the amount of resource you get from mining etc, you should avoid it. The thing is there is bug with mining in A17 whereby the last hit you give to a block (which gives you the bonus yield) does NOT give the normal yield. So the yield lost depends how many HP the block had on that last swing (the more it had, the higher the loss). So while this skill means you will kill blocks faster, you will very often get LESS resource from blocks from these points. I just avoid them to be sure.

I did not focus on the last hit resource, but my experience is that by taking down blocks faster, you increase the resource you get, both per time unit or per stamina unit. My guess is that the resource of one block remains the same, and you are getting them faster. So I feel I should always favor this over Mother Lode, because the % is higher. I need more tests, but the last hit effects might just introduce local thresholds in the returns (you get exactly linear returns when you need one less hit).

This is what I am proposing already. To craft a brown shotgun you buy one rank of shotgun messiah. To craft an orange you buy the 2nd, yellow etc

The diversity of builds in solo would increase (great!), but this would completely kill the teamwork in multiple players : each player would end up crafting things for himself only ! Wouldn't a mixed system be better, where the quality is the average of the int and of the specific skill ? Apart from recipe availability, this could simply be done by having +1 in the specific perks compensate -1 in the quality.

What I really dislike with the new skill system (apart from its lack of imagination) is the unability to try. If you want to try some weapon line, you have to invest a few points, to then realize you don't like that weapon playstyle and want to change. And you just lose points ! At least in A16, I could try all weapons and chose for myself. This costed a bit of time (to get some skill in each weapon you wanted to try), but without affecting long term development of the character. I guess we need a quest to reset some perks and get the points back ? Maybe a tough one that only resets one point at a time, to avoid abuses, but keep the possibility to experiment.

 

[Khulkhuum]

Aaaaand... the HYPE TRAIN has started its course :smile-new:

I love playing with stealth and it proves time and time again that you can do it. Would love for zombies to respect line of sight better, as well as better sound management - for example breaking a door (even iron ones) would make less sound than breaking full blocks. Unless you will be able to strip the "upgrades" on doors (planked iron door, planked and iron sheeted door) using a clawhammer or something to make less sound.

Can someone make a mod about it? Stripping and breaking doors with tools to make less sound...

 

[Ghostlight]

If you get 10% fewer resources from a block but kill it in 50% of the time you are making massive gains in resource per unit time of mining - the only thing that actually matters for underground miners IMHO. While I think they need to address the odd way resources work, this perk is still really useful for underground mining.

The loss is not trivial and can be as high as 25% (highest I have seen). It's a balancing act. You can mess around finding the optimal place.

 

[Ghostlight]

I did not focus on the last hit resource, but my experience is that by taking down blocks faster, you increase the resource you get, both per time unit or per stamina unit. My guess is that the resource of one block remains the same, and you are getting them faster. So I feel I should always favor this over Mother Lode, because the % is higher. I need more tests, but the last hit effects might just introduce local thresholds in the returns (you get exactly linear returns when you need one less hit).

I have tested this a lot. The problem we have is that a point you place into Miner69er may NOT reduce the number of swings but may well reduce the resource you get per block. In fact, in my experimentations this was, BY FAR, the most common result of putting a point into Miner69er. Bear in mind there are 4 main ways you can change the damage you do to a block and thus the amount of resources you LOSE due to this bug. These are:

1) Put points in Strength

2) Put points in Miner69er

3) Add or remove mods from your gathering tool

4) Incorporate one or more heavy swings into your mining routine (stamina permitting)

Now (1) you are going to be doing anyway to head to Strength 10, so let's ignore that. The problem with Miner69er is once the point is spent, you cannot undo it. So if you find a single point in the skill reduces your resource per block (without the accompanying reduction in swing count) you are then having to use (3) and (4) to tweak things back to where they were, or lose resources.

 

[Umbrella]

Thank you for your explanations ! I will test this again, accounting for the last hit.

If my assumption holds (that the total resource of one block remains constant), you cannot lose efficiency. At worse you keep the same resource/time factor (or /stamina). And anytime Miner69er saves you a swing to destroy the block, you get a linear improvement. If this is true, what you lose on the final hit, you have already gathered in the previous ones.