PC My personal opinions on the game's development so far

The Blue Fox

The Blue Fox

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So I first played the game back in the day when you gained skill in various actions from repeating those actions over and over rather than purely having to spend XP on the skill, and you spent XP on various perks to help boost those skills even more.

I much preferred that old method of skill gain, I feel it was more...natural and realistic than the current method of it all being purely through spending skill points on each level up.

I mean...in real life you get better at doing stuff the more you do it, right? Yeah.

So I would like to see that method of skill gain brought back. I don't care if anybody thinks it made the game easy. Personally I felt the game was already pretty challenging back then, but obviously that's just down to individual skill.

However, I DO like the idea of tailoring the level up system to favor more a specialist playstyle so you can be a stealthy ninja sniping from the shadows with the bow and arrow or just charge in as a heavy tank flattening zombies with your club if you so choose. Just try to avoid Skyrim's mistake of ending up with the stealth archer being the obvious optimal choice every playthrough, yeah?

Plus I like how it makes the Trader more...relevant, I guess the word is.

I also don't like the new item quality number system. I liked how it went from 1 to 500 and beyond. It allowed for a more precise measure of an item's quality. And again, I feel it was more realistic than the current item quality levels of 1 - 5. I also feel the new item quality system makes it way harder to get better quality items.

One more point for realism was the item quality degrading when repaired mechanic. I get why it was removed, though, with being able to just make a fresh one at the same quality as the used one and all. Not really sure how to solve that one.

Are you getting the idea I like realism yet?

Yeah I feel like some of the new mechanics have made the game less realistic and not as good as it once was.

Like what's the deal with loot bags popping out of zombie corpses rather than just the zombie bodies being lootable? Coz omnipotent diety forbid, the player wastes time looting empty corpses, right?

Also I was a bit upset about discovering the log spikes were removed recently. I loved using those to defend my base. They could tank a beating way better than the other wood spikes while they damaged the zombies.

I looked up why they were removed...apparently some players were finding exploits with them? What? I don't really think that's a reason to remove a feature of your game, it's an opportunity to look at the supposed exploits and fix them.

So yeah. In short, I'm not really a fan of some of the newer changes to the game, but there are some ideas I like as well. I hope the old XP / skill system can be brought back somehow, maybe with some tweaks to balance everything out.

What do you guys think?

 
The Pimps don't like Learn By Doing, therefore we can't have it without modding. I also miss the quality system, spikes, and corpses to harvest. A17 changed the game from something I played for hours at a time almost everyday, to something I take a look at when an update comes out to see if it's gotten any better (from my perspective). So far, it hasn't.

 
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So I first played the game back in the day when you gained skill in various actions from repeating those actions over and over rather than purely having to spend XP on the skill, and you spent XP on various perks to help boost those skills even more.
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Wow, ok, so you're really new to the game...

Also, the "learn by doing" method didn't work because players would all exploit it like crazy maxing out their character within minutes. Things like spam crafting stone axes, etc.

 
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Wow, ok, so you're really new to the game...
Also, the "learn by doing" method didn't work because players would all exploit it like crazy maxing out their character within minutes. Things like spam crafting stone axes, etc.
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Spam crafting was a great idea, it just needed to be balanced and have reasonable limits. If, after all, I craft 1000 stone axes, you would think I would get better at it and I should be making better axes.

Now, I kill a few zombies, allocate point judiciously, and *poof* I can now make better axes.

It should not be so easy to level up my axe crafting skill without ever having made an axe, and I should get some credit for crafting 100 axes.

Balance. It needs balancing, and IMNSHO it's as out of balance now as it was when we could spam craft our way up the quality ladder.

 
Spam crafting was a great idea, it just needed to be balanced and have reasonable limits. If, after all, I craft 1000 stone axes, you would think I would get better at it and I should be making better axes.
Now, I kill a few zombies, allocate point judiciously, and *poof* I can now make better axes.

It should not be so easy to level up my axe crafting skill without ever having made an axe, and I should get some credit for crafting 100 axes.

Balance. It needs balancing, and IMNSHO it's as out of balance now as it was when we could spam craft our way up the quality ladder.
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Yeah, this.

Like maybe you need to level up in spam crafting the thing to a certain level before you can allocate a XP perk bonus to it? That could work.

 
Spam crafting was a great idea, it just needed to be balanced and have reasonable limits. If, after all, I craft 1000 stone axes, you would think I would get better at it and I should be making better axes.
Now, I kill a few zombies, allocate point judiciously, and *poof* I can now make better axes.

It should not be so easy to level up my axe crafting skill without ever having made an axe, and I should get some credit for crafting 100 axes.

Balance. It needs balancing, and IMNSHO it's as out of balance now as it was when we could spam craft our way up the quality ladder.
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The problem with spam crafting is you can do it while doing other things requiring zero effort or time and then you can spend your skill points on anything you wanted. So within 10 minutes of no effort, your character was basically a god. It was a dumb system and I'm glad it's gone.

This new system, while not a big fan of it, it does at least work ok in it's current form. Hopefully they'll make improvements on it so it doesn't feel like a boring grind just to get things done in the game.

Yeah, this.
Like maybe you need to level up in spam crafting the thing to a certain level before you can allocate a XP perk bonus to it? That could work.
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You can try to make it sound simple if you want, but the problem is... how do you fit in things like making a vehicle, or workbench, or electric devices, etc... would you rather spend dozens of hours trying to find those damn books / blueprints again? Cuz we tried that way too and no one liked that either.

The only other system they haven't implemented yet is a very linear system where you have to make certain things in a specific order to unlock new tiers of stuff. I can already say that that system would suck worse than all else because then I would constantly have to waste resources to make things I don't need / want and would force me into trying to find specific things / resources all the time just to make these useless things.

 
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The problem with spam crafting is you can do it while doing other things requiring zero effort or time and then you can spend your skill points on anything you wanted. So within 10 minutes of no effort, your character was basically a god. It was a dumb system and I'm glad it's gone.
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That could be easily solved in a dozen different ways. Effort spent is essentially your materials loss (which is rather insignificant) and diminishing returns could easily just make it barely worth it, after a short while. What was dumb was not the system itself, but its lack of any constraints/logic.

 
Don't want to discredit you or anything, but you're voicing your opinion pretty late in A17, basically when A18 is around the corner. But, if you want realism? Let's give it a shot...

LBD was better, because IRL you learn things by repetition? Not really. Some people are apt at some things, but have difficulty with other things. Someone could spend tens of hours on one subject, but learn very little, because he/she finds it difficult to understand. Another person could spend a fraction of that time to understand the same amount of the topic. Just like some will never understand math and logic and some will find it hard learning languages, no matter how much time they spent (know people from first and second group).

Secondly, if you want LBD all the way go play Realms of Magic game. Pretty decent EA game and keeps improving slowly with new content, but to craft high quality armor, weapons, furniture or ore bars, you have to first level skills by crafting low level items. And not one, each item group has its own skill, so tailoring, weapon crafting, armor crafting, smithing, leatherworkung and many others.

Thirdly, LBD has its pros and cons and there is a topic about it, so go check it out, it'll be better than me ranting for or against it.

Lastly, early A17 was rough and many things have been improved. A18 will show (and i'm pretty sure of it) a lot of changes that will awe people. Yet we need to wait for it.

 
You can try to make it sound simple if you want, but the problem is... how do you fit in things like making a vehicle, or workbench, or electric devices, etc... would you rather spend dozens of hours trying to find those damn books / blueprints again? Cuz we tried that way too and no one liked that either.
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Actually people did like the magazines. It encouraged exploration and added more depth to exploring the world. People are bored senseless right now in a17 primarily because exploration becomes pointless at a certain point since you can make most of the things you need and trade for the things you can't make. I am looking forward to Mad Moles new magazine perk system in a18 as I HOPE it gets my butt out exploring again.

In a16.4, finding the crack-a-book tower was like striking gold, loved that feeling of omg maybe ill get that mini bike book now, or maybe ill find that auger book. It added more than I think you guys realize. The randomness of it made each play through feel different and unique.

With a linear progression system, as in any game, people will find the most efficient way to use the perks and share that with other folks which in turn trivializes progression. I can play a17 now at max difficulty with 64 zombie horde nights with always sprint and not break a sweat. Its just to easy with the current system. I miss the challenge and randomness and I hope the Development team has something up there sleeve to get some of that back.

 
You can try to make it sound simple if you want, but the problem is... how do you fit in things like making a vehicle, or workbench, or electric devices, etc... would you rather spend dozens of hours trying to find those damn books / blueprints again? Cuz we tried that way too and no one liked that either.
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It used to be you just found the book / blueprint, read it and then know it permenantly to craft the thing as many times as you liked. I don't like the new mechanic of having to re-find the book / blueprint EVERY time you wanted to make the thing, coz good fricking luck finding the exact same one multiple times.

LBD was better, because IRL you learn things by repetition? Not really. Some people are apt at some things, but have difficulty with other things. Someone could spend tens of hours on one subject, but learn very little, because he/she finds it difficult to understand. Another person could spend a fraction of that time to understand the same amount of the topic. Just like some will never understand math and logic and some will find it hard learning languages, no matter how much time they spent (know people from first and second group).
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I will admit, learn by doing is not perfect, but as a bunch of folks pointed out, neither is the current system, not by a long shot. LBD is the better of the two, IMHO.

This is a video game, not real life. I don't see any videogame...EVER...implimenting a mechanic where different player character learn certain things at different rates from LBD just coz real people's brains are wired differently like that. Though that kind of mechanic may be possible in a current gen game (Seriously, games can do some insane stuff nowadays) you'd kind of have to build your game around that kind of mechanic, and that could be a lot of code taking up a lot of space that could be used for other video game mechanics.

My point was that, in general, folks do get better at something the more they do it and I want to see this game's implimentation of that brought back in a re-balanced way.

Yes, and I was close to locking this thread on that basis. Will see how this thread progresses, but we do already have a very lengthy LBD thread.
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Oh, sorry. i didn't know there was already a thread argument on LBD. I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

My original post touched on points beyond LBD, though, such as mentioning my liking the idea of levelling up a specialist playstyle like you can in Skyrim and how it kind of makes the Trader more relevant, and the fact it sucks log spikes were removed just beause players were exploiting them.

 
Wow, ok, so you're really new to the game...
Also, the "learn by doing" method didn't work because players would all exploit it like crazy maxing out their character within minutes. Things like spam crafting stone axes, etc.
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Choose a game, any game and you will find people exploiting it to the max. Starts with simple one way smokes in Cs-Go, goes over shooting zombies in the foot in Scum to get more famepoints and wallpieces that get illegaly stacked in Conan Exiles. Just name a game and search the internet.

In my opinion, a game should give you freedom and choises and a little bit of challenge. Thats why we play it. It should help you to relax after a long day of work. It should excite your creativity and it should give you things to do without feeling boring oder stressed out. In the end its up to each player how he wants to play a game. If someone likes to sit in their cave and spamcraft 100 axes then be it. Another one will only craft one and play totally different. One likes to explore, the next likes to build and the third wants to unlock all kind of blueprints or sell all his goodies to the trader.

I understand that the devs have a vision for their game. It would be bad if they have not. But in my opion its important to understand that a good game is not messurd on grafics, best fps or theme, its messured on the freedom you get as a player. Best example is Minecraft. Simple Pixelgame but sold to millions of people that played it fanaticly, in europe even officially in schools.

I personally liked A16.4 more. Because I felt it gave me more freedom. I like my zombies dumb and slow, I like to have endless building and defense options. I don´t like been pushed to use only one type of spikes or that I have to build my base a certain way only to get the hord done without loosing 80% of my base. I know people see it differently, but thats why we are here in the end. To discuss and show all kinds of playstyle.

The rest ist up to the devs.

 
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You can try to make it sound simple if you want, but the problem is... how do you fit in things like making a vehicle, or workbench, or electric devices, etc... would you rather spend dozens of hours trying to find those damn books / blueprints again? Cuz we tried that way too and no one liked that either.
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It seems like nobody likes anything. ;)

The discussions about books and LBD show that there are supporters of both systems. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

There are popular mods that have reinstalled the old LBD system and books. For example Darkness Falls.

 
Choose a game, any game and you will find people exploiting it to the max.
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There's plenty of games out there that have very little to no exploitable options without resorting to modifying game files. Mind you, the term "exploit" is a bit subjective in some cases so even if I mention a game like Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, I'm sure you'll google to see if there's any exploits and prove me wrong even though I couldn't find any myself when I played through it twice.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems like nobody likes anything. ;)
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This is true, which is why I can't wait for the devs to stop bringing out massive updates and just finish the game (and optimize it) so we can all start jumping into mods without worrying about them breaking after each update all the time. That way we can all get what we want out of the game and not be pushed into playing the game "their" way anymore.

 
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I think I heard somewhere they might actually make the final game mod incompatible somehow.

That's one sure-fire way to make a game like this a critical failiure.

 
It used to be you just found the book / blueprint, read it and then know it permenantly to craft the thing as many times as you liked. I don't like the new mechanic of having to re-find the book / blueprint EVERY time you wanted to make the thing, coz good fricking luck finding the exact same one multiple times.
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You should check out the Dev Discussion thread for Alpha 18.

Basically, single-use blueprints were only ever a temporary placeholder while they re-jigged the perk system. In Alpha 18 there are a whole new set of blueprints that work in the more traditional "read it once to learn the skill" manner rather than being a crafting ingredient.

 
I think I heard somewhere they might actually make the final game mod incompatible somehow.
That's one sure-fire way to make a game like this a critical failiure.
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If you knew anything about TFP, you would know that what you heard is a lie.

 
If you knew anything about TFP, you would know that what you heard is a lie.
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Yeah, I should know better than to pay attention to any kind of rumors on the internet.

I'm just a concerned fan who sees a lot of potential for this game to be amazing and doesn't want anything to ruin that.

 
Actually people did like the magazines. It encouraged exploration and added more depth to exploring the world. People are bored senseless right now in a17 primarily because exploration becomes pointless at a certain point since you can make most of the things you need and trade for the things you can't make.
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+1

I really miss the books. I can accept the loss of LBD, even though it felt natural to me. But reading the schematics to learn how to assemble/repair items was my favorite part of exploring. It was a scavenger hunt to find all the recipes... a game within a game. And it made sense that you learn by reading. The mod schematics disappearing when used in the recipe does not make sense to me.

I remember one game I found all the schematics except the sniper rifle. I hit a few bookstores, but no luck. Then I came across a garbage in the middle of the road that had annoyed me because I kept driving around it, so I decided to open it before destroying it when lo and behold! Euphoria! And each playthrough it would be a different holdout, sometimes the minibike, sometimes the auger. But in my opinion, that's what made it special.

 
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