PC My next mission will not contribute to my tier progression

[Riamus]

Sorry, the typical new (single) player won't do 3 quests per day anyway because he will usually be pretty overwhelmed with finding his way around, managing stamina and finding food. The only novice player hitting the limit might be an action-game-trained player who walzes through the POIs with ease and has read too much about the game in player guides. And he might actually benefit from being slowed down in progression. 

It isn't really artifical. Can you build up trust with some trade partner by simply doing lots of good things for him in just one day? That is how very cheesy crime television plots work, but in reality building up trust takes time and being a reliable friend/helper/bussiness partner for a time. Sure, he will pay you square for every dealing with him (aka the quest rewards), but trust (aka reputation) grows slowly. Look at other games, they usually make sure you can't simply hit max reputation with some faction in early game.

I fully agree. But it is especially for multi player. The more players the more this limit is needed.

In my view this is a balance setting that is applicable for all players, veterans included. Veterans can change the default, but then they know they changed it and can't claim that the balance is borked. Vanilla default has to be as balanced as possible, for everyone, even veterans. If you do 5 quests per day the balance is borked. Not necessarily on day 2 when you get your bicycle, but on day 10 when you already can do tier5 quests and then complain the game seems already finished because you went into that tier5 twice already.

By the way, it doesn't take long to reach day 4 at default, but because you play on 2 hour days those same 4 days may feel like an eternity in comparison. This may be a reason why day 4 bike is so difficult for you to accept.

I am not Roland. You replied to me, but seem to argue a lot about Rolands ideas.

I'd say it's artificial because the game doesn't in any way make it real.  It's arbitrary at the moment.  If the game had real reputation that you can gain in order to do more quests, then that would feel right.  The way it is now, the "reputation" is nothing more than tiers for quests.  And you can't lose progress for any reason, so it's not what I'd consider reputation right now.  It is similar, but so basic that it just doesn't feel like a limit even makes sense.    And yes, I know that's simply a matter of perspective and some people (perhaps many) would still consider it reputation because you do X quests to unlock the next tier.

What would make more sense is to not limit anything, but to make each tier require more quests than the previous tier.  Something like 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.  That's not points but "at level" quests.  That removes the delay to getting a bike and makes it take the extended time to reach max tier, which is what some people feel is necessary.  I'd still be fine with a 5 per day limit to keep MP from going crazy (still optional, of course).

And again, I don't really care that much.  I don't go too crazy with quests.  I'll do multiple low level quests in a row just because they take so little time, so why not?  And I'll go for the bike as soon as possible for the reasons I've mentioned.  But otherwise, I don't rush it.  Once I have the resources to actually start doing something other than questing, my questing often drops to one or two a day.  I just don't think a limit of 3 makes sense, especially if you can take 5 quests per day (ignoring that you can get more by exiting and loading the game again, which really shouldn't be possible).  Basically, the trader says, "Here, I have 5 quests for you to do today.  Do as many of them as you want and I'll pay your for each.  But I'm going to ignore that you did 2 of them because I don't feel like giving you credit for the work."  Does this sound at all realistic?  Does it actually make sense?  If you are going to make the default 3, then the number of quests offered should also be 3.  Maybe even tie the number offered to the number of quests per day that are allowed, though that would get too long for 8 and wouldn't work at all for unlimited, so not really an option unless it's only done for under 5 and anything over 5 still only offers 5 quests.

I was responding to you, but yes, I did mention Roland's comments as a way to also comment on that.  I don't see a reason I can't comment on more than one person's post.

 

[meganoth]

I am tier 5 and that wasn't a choice.  I'm guessing it's just a possible choice and not a guaranteed choice, maybe?

No, didn't find it when checking the xml right now. You can get the chemstation at tier4 and possibly a complete gyro with luck, lots of other high end items, but the "damage" is limited. The biggest problem of rushing the progression now may simply be that there is no progression anymore if you rushed it (accidentally). Which mostly affects multiplayer (where accidentally rushing is simply playing the game).

 

[meganoth]

I'd say it's artificial because the game doesn't in any way make it real.  It's arbitrary at the moment.  If the game had real reputation that you can gain in order to do more quests, then that would feel right.  The way it is now, the "reputation" is nothing more than tiers for quests.  And you can't lose progress for any reason, so it's not what I'd consider reputation right now.  It is similar, but so basic that it just doesn't feel like a limit even makes sense.    And yes, I know that's simply a matter of perspective and some people (perhaps many) would still consider it reputation because you do X quests to unlock the next tier.

Many other games have no mechanism to loose reputation and still call it reputation or faction system. It is certainly a subjective call whether someone sees it as artificial or not.

And I get the impression that much of this also the fault of that wretched icon that sends a wrong message.

What would make more sense is to not limit anything, but to make each tier require more quests than the previous tier.  Something like 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.  That's not points but "at level" quests.  That removes the delay to getting a bike and makes it take the extended time to reach max tier, which is what some people feel is necessary.  I'd still be fine with a 5 per day limit to keep MP from going crazy (still optional, of course).

See it that way: We have a game that has to balance between 1 to 8 players! In the case of questing a group of 1 (aka single player) will not reach that limit in most cases, while groups will hit that limit almost daily. My group of 4 at least does. And in previous alphas that was the biggest reason why my group was finished and bored by day 35~ while I still was fighting the first ferals in single-player. TFP has to limit the progression of larger groups somehow so they don't run through the content while the single player is going at a snails pace.

A lot of players have noticed this as well, a change to trader quest progression was a common topic here.

You are focusing too much on the bike when discussing this. With 2 hour days SP you have to change the limit anyway to keep the game balanced. But with normal days getting a bike on day 4 feels natural (IMHO). A limit of 5 would still limit larger groups, but not enough, they would be at the end of progression before even the second horde night.

[EDIT] Correction: I was forgetting that higher tier quests take more time, even for groups, and the other change, the bigger gaps between trader rep tiers. Since higher tier quests take more time to do eventually even groups will be slowed down, even when they try rushing it, reaching tier5 rep will usually take more than 2 weeks. It doesn't change the point I am making though

And again, I don't really care that much.  I don't go too crazy with quests.  I'll do multiple low level quests in a row just because they take so little time, so why not?  And I'll go for the bike as soon as possible for the reasons I've mentioned.  But otherwise, I don't rush it.  Once I have the resources to actually start doing something other than questing, my questing often drops to one or two a day.  I just don't think a limit of 3 makes sense, especially if you can take 5 quests per day (ignoring that you can get more by exiting and loading the game again, which really shouldn't be possible).  Basically, the trader says, "Here, I have 5 quests for you to do today.  Do as many of them as you want and I'll pay your for each.  But I'm going to ignore that you did 2 of them because I don't feel like giving you credit for the work."  Does this sound at all realistic?  Does it actually make sense?  If you are going to make the default 3, then the number of quests offered should also be 3.  Maybe even tie the number offered to the number of quests per day that are allowed, though that would get too long for 8 and wouldn't work at all for unlimited, so not really an option unless it's only done for under 5 and anything over 5 still only offers 5 quests.

Is a reload necessary to get new quests on a specific day? I actually don't know. In our group we are 4, that means we together have 20 quests to do before we might reach that limit at all. See, this is all about multiplayer. Groups need that limit and they need it desperately. As a single player you are almost not affected at all (on everthing default).

You seem to be really arguing that the default should fit your game with 2 hour days, and actually it doesn't. I am not surprised.

was responding to you, but yes, I did mention Roland's comments as a way to also comment on that.  I don't see a reason I can't comment on more than one person's post.

Sure, but maybe as a nice gesture to me, please add something like @ Roland to differentiate who you are replying to. It is irritating to me and if anyone is still reading our walls of text might be irritating to them as well.

 

[theFlu]

I guess you don’t understand the concept I’m explaining.

Guess less, ask more. I get your idea perfectly well; but it's absolutely wrong to call it "freedom". In this case your freedoms aren't increased. You are absolutely free to go dig a trench around your base even when you have the option to earn rep. You do not gain any choices by adding the limit.

There are cases where that can be argued; simple, if not entirely non-controversial example is "highways". You're free to use them. By default you'd have no speed limit, no lane requirements, etc etc.. you'd just have the freedoms to drive on the flat surface. I don't even need to say that would be a nightmarish death trap. By yielding some of your freedoms, the highway becomes "feasible" and thus you gain "reliable fast transport". You have to yield your freedom to drive on the "opposite" lane for everyone to gain utility - that specific utility can somewhat reasonably be called a new freedom (but it can also be argued it isn't really new nor a freedom).

But whether or not that's an example of gaining freedoms, it's an example of limiting freedoms for a common gain. "Freedom" isn't a pure good. Standing in the middle of a dry desert, you're absolutely free. And soon to be dead. Sometimes, limiting freedoms in specific ways is a universal good. (Not "the greater good", but actually better for everyone). You're arguing that this is such a case, and sure, it might. But you're claiming this is adding freedoms... it is not.

I can see that this mechanic makes questing less attractive.. but the change doesn't add any choices. Like Riamus was saying, there's nothing else to do anyway. So it doesn't even change your behaviour; you'll still quest or at least chain-loot. The only thing the change actually accomplishes is stretch the days you reach tiers of quests. This sounds like a manager's implementation of a goal of "make the game last longer". It gets the job done on paper, but doesn't improve anything. And the cynic in me says that's exactly what it is...

Thankfully, the people designing the game get it.

Sure. "But the flu doesn't". Could you be less condescending on occasion?

Maybe this is just the gross exaggeration of "slavery isn't freedom" getting thrown around over this,

Don't mistake my mildly annoyed objection to corruption of language for an argument for or against the topic at hand; and don't let it color your perception. You're free to like the change, it's not like it's something horrible, but don't like it just because I don't

 

[Riamus]

Many other games have no mechanism to loose reputation and still call it reputation or faction system. It is certainly a subjective call whether someone sees it as artificial or not.

And I get the impression that much of this also the fault of that wretched icon that sends a wrong message.

See it that way: We have a game that has to balance between 1 to 8 players! In the case of questing a group of 1 (aka single player) will not reach that limit in most cases, while groups will hit that limit almost daily. My group of 4 at least does. And in previous alphas that was the biggest reason why my group was finished and bored by day 35~ while I still was fighting the first ferals in single-player. TFP has to limit the progression of larger groups somehow so they don't run through the content while the single player is going at a snails pace.

A lot of players have noticed this as well, a change to trader quest progression was a common topic here.

You are focusing too much on the bike when discussing this. With 2 hour days SP you have to change the limit anyway to keep the game balanced. But with normal days getting a bike on day 4 feels natural (IMHO). A limit of 5 would still limit larger groups, but not enough, they would be at the end of progression before even the second horde night.

[EDIT] Correction: I was forgetting that higher tier quests take more time, even for groups, and the other change, the bigger gaps between trader rep tiers. Since higher tier quests take more time to do eventually even groups will be slowed down, even when they try rushing it, reaching tier5 rep will usually take more than 2 weeks. It doesn't change the point I am making though

Is a reload necessary to get new quests on a specific day? I actually don't know. In our group we are 4, that means we together have 20 quests to do before we might reach that limit at all. See, this is all about multiplayer. Groups need that limit and they need it desperately. As a single player you are almost not affected at all (on everthing default).

You seem to be really arguing that the default should fit your game with 2 hour days, and actually it doesn't. I am not surprised.

Sure, but maybe as a nice gesture to me, please add something like @ Roland to differentiate who you are replying to. It is irritating to me and if anyone is still reading our walls of text might be irritating to them as well.

Ok, so I haven't checked this yet ... Is the limit per person or total?  In other words, in an 8 player game with this set to 3, is it 3 total for the entire group of questing together or 24?  I'm guessing 3.  Does that really make much sense in multiplayer?  I mean, sure... It slows you down.  But isn't it a bit much? 

If a large group can complete 3 quests, especially tier 1 quests in the early game, by 8am now that we start at 4am, does that make sense?  A group of 8 players questing together should be able to do 3 tier 1 or 2 (maybe 3) quests in 4 hours on 1 hour days without much trouble if the quests are close together.  Especially if they are fetch quests and the group didn't want to complete the POI.  Edit: I did the math and that is too quick... So say by 10am.  That's 15 minutes.  Unless I'm really taking my time in a tier 1 quest, I can be done in 5 minutes.  They are so small, it is hard to take much longer except with a few bigger tier 1 POI.

Would the average 8 player group want to be limited to 3 quests in a day for progression?  I don't know that answer.  I know I wouldn't and people I play with wouldn't.  The first thing I heard from someone I played with who had been gone when the patch with this came out after getting back was a complaint about the limitation.  Once I explained it was an option, they were fine with it, but the initial reaction was negative.  Even if this has value for slowing progression down, if the average initial reaction is negative, can that be a good thing? 

To your question, yes, reloading gives you 5 new quests even if you completed some. 

I'm not arguing about it fitting my settings.  I'm arguing that it should match the number of quests you can take in a day (unlimited obviously can't, and 8 is too much, of course).  As I said, it doesn't make sense that a trader gives you 5 quests but tells you he won't count 2 of those towards reputation with him. 

Also, just because you can complete the first few tiers quickly doesn't mean you keep that same completion rate.  It takes longer to do tier 4 and much longer to do tier 5 quests.  On one hour days, you aren't likely to complete more than one (or two in a group) in a day.  So the limitation is really focused on really game, which has already been allowed down a lot lately.  If they want to make the game last longer, they should focus on late game instead of early game.

 

[meganoth]

Ok, so I haven't checked this yet ... Is the limit per person or total?  In other words, in an 8 player game with this set to 3, is it 3 total for the entire group of questing together or 24?  I'm guessing 3.  Does that really make much sense in multiplayer?  I mean, sure... It slows you down.  But isn't it a bit much? 

Yes, 3. Does that make sense? Yes. Because a single player playing normally can't do more than 3 either. So whether you are a single player or a group of 4 or 8, your reputation progress will be at the same speed.

A group of 8 will get their free bike on day 4 just like the single player. A group of 8 players will start doing tier 4 POIs almost at the same day than a single player would. So this means the game is a lot more balanced between different number of players.

f a large group can complete 3 quests, especially tier 1 quests in the early game, by 8am now that we start at 4am, does that make sense?  A group of 8 players questing together should be able to do 3 tier 1 or 2 (maybe 3) quests in 4 hours on 1 hour days without much trouble if the quests are close together.  Especially if they are fetch quests and the group didn't want to complete the POI.  Edit: I did the math and that is too quick... So say by 10am.  That's 15 minutes.  Unless I'm really taking my time in a tier 1 quest, I can be done in 5 minutes.  They are so small, it is hard to take much longer except with a few bigger tier 1 POI.

Again, you get ALL the benefits of doing quests, except the reputation.

If I play in a group and hit the limit, then my choice is still between

a) looting POIs and

b) looting POIs + some bonus XP + some bonus dukes + a bonus reward (which might be 6 magazines or 50 bullets of ammo).

The single player, if he reaches the limit on a day, might decide going back to the trader to get a new quest isn't worth it and loot POIs without a quest. A group of 4 players will get 4 new quests by going back once, I am very sure they will continue to do quests after hitting the limit, for that additional XP+dukes+reward times 4. I know I will, because I have already done so. Neither I nor any of my co-players has hesitated for a second when that icon turned up.

Would the average 8 player group want to be limited to 3 quests in a day for progression?

This isn't about wanting it. It clearly is a nerf to balance things out. Nobody really likes to be nerfed. But players who understand that a game without challenge or balance is ultimately a bad game for them as well know that nerfs are necessary.

I don't know that answer.  I know I wouldn't and people I play with wouldn't.  The first thing I heard from someone I played with who had been gone when the patch with this came out after getting back was a complaint about the limitation.  Once I explained it was an option, they were fine with it, but the initial reaction was negative.  Even if this has value for slowing progression down, if the average initial reaction is negative, can that be a good thing? 

Has there ever been a positive reaction in the forum to nerfs or changes in general? At max it was a mixed reception.

I'm not arguing about it fitting my settings.  I'm arguing that it should match the number of quests you can take in a day (unlimited obviously can't, and 8 is too much, of course).  As I said, it doesn't make sense that a trader gives you 5 quests but tells you he won't count 2 of those towards reputation with him. 

theFlu said it best, the trader probably should not tell you this at all. It should be an internal number and you should simply be surprised with the news that the trader now thinks you are ready for better more rewarding tasks, because he is impressed with how you dealt with the previous quests. 

Would you like it better if the limit were a hard limit and the trader would simply be out of jobs? It would be surely more realistic, but that would also restrict the choices of players much more. I thought about different ways how to do that and they all have serious limitations and drawbacks. This "soft" limit instead could really balance out what has been wrong about MP/SP for such a long time.

Also, just because you can complete the first few tiers quickly doesn't mean you keep that same completion rate.  It takes longer to do tier 4 and much longer to do tier 5 quests.  On one hour days, you aren't likely to complete more than one (or two in a group) in a day.  So the limitation is really focused on really game, which has already been allowed down a lot lately.  If they want to make the game last longer, they should focus on late game instead of early game.

Yes, I mentioned that as well in my post. But if multiplayer progress is 2-4 times as fast as single player progress for the first 20 days for example (like it has been in A21) then the damage is already done in early game. It doesn't matter if MP play gets slower eventually, because by then their lead is already massive. And because a group is still faster even with tier4 that lead will continue to grow, even if somewhat slower.

 

[Mister Forgash]

Again, you get ALL the benefits of doing quests, except the reputation.

If I play in a group and hit the limit, then my choice is still between

a) looting POIs and

b) looting POIs + some bonus XP + some bonus dukes + a bonus reward (which might be 6 magazines or 50 bullets of ammo).

Pretty much this. 

It is dishonest to call it a limit on quests, or to say you're being forced. This is [SMALL AND ADJUSTABLE] limit on Tier Progression speed at worst. If you're clever enough to set your day length to 2 hours, you'll figure out how you can change this setting too.

But if you don't or choose not to, you're still getting the dukes, the quest rewards, the XP- and potentially just as important, a fresh PoI to loot.

So.. Losing the freedom to click less settings?

 

[RickH]

It seems to me that rushing through quest tiers is more of a multiplayer issue rather than a single player one. 

I think this is true. Single players should be in the habit of moving their bases to the biomes they are currently progressing through traders on. The only irritation with this is relocating all your "stuff" from one base to the next. Yes, I realize you can use the "teleport" command, but is that something people should be depending upon? I heard there was a plan to have some kind of trader to trader teleport system. THAT would greatly reduce the annoyance of needing to move stuff to the next base... 

 

[OneManStanding]

Didn't know what ElCabong was meaning until I *finally* noticed the red, crossed-out exclamation mark and checked what it meant. I don't recall this in my playthrough up until now -- was it only triggered by the update? It doesn't make a lot of sense, have to say. If you're playing on 30 minute days then two quests will be as much as you can do, whereas if you're playing longer days then you're going to want to do quests as you like. And as the quests get bigger then one quest is all you'll be able to manage even on a longer day.

That said, might be handy on community servers to stop people racing ahead. But in single player you like to play as you go. Today I might do quests, tomorrow I might be mining and crafting all day.

 

[Riamus]

Didn't know what ElCabong was meaning until I *finally* noticed the red, crossed-out exclamation mark and checked what it meant. I don't recall this in my playthrough up until now -- was it only triggered by the update? It doesn't make a lot of sense, have to say. If you're playing on 30 minute days then two quests will be as much as you can do, whereas if you're playing longer days then you're going to want to do quests as you like. And as the quests get bigger then one quest is all you'll be able to manage even on a longer day.

That said, might be handy on community servers to stop people racing ahead. But in single player you like to play as you go. Today I might do quests, tomorrow I might be mining and crafting all day.

Yeah, it was in one of the patches.  It replaced the restriction originally added that made it so you couldn't get tier progression from shared quests.  They removed that and added this.  Since it is a setting, it's not a big deal.  You can adjust it as you see fit.