I love the zombie AI and pathfinding for how it enhances POI exploration. This is a separate issue for me from whether current POI design is better or worse than it once was or than it could be. I like the enemies being relentless and that they can find their way back to me while I'm exploring.
So you don't kill them all? When I follow the designated path, I run into all of them - pocket after pocket (aka "sleeper volume") - and kill them. If I don't, for example when I go straight for the treasure room, zombies outside the pocket(s) I enter don't even wake up. Not sure what you're refering to with "back to me". Back from where? Anyways, outside horde night, the AI does not bother me. There were weird cases in A17, though, I don't know if they are gone in A18 or I just didn't run into similar circumstances.
I recognize the weakness of the AI and pathfinding for horde night. It is easily exploitable and you do have to build with a mind to how you know they will behave. I don't personally take advantage of exploits and so still have fun on horde nights but I definitely would like for them to fix the flaws.
I see the current pathfinding and AI as a better starting point than what we had before. I hope they will keep working at obfuscating what the zombies actually know and work on making them seem more organic than programmed.
So you're on board with the critics. Sounds much like it also in other comments.
Question, though: How do you decide what's an "exploit"? Compared to a good design?
Then you're reading me wrong. Of course I want these things discussed.
I might read you wrong, but maybe you're expressing yourself mistakable. Or it's a mix. Of both.
What we have now is neither a complete representation of their vision nor is it at a point where it is stuck by technical limitations. It is the early days of their development of a new system where they start out with zombies having perfect knowledge and then work to limit that fact and obfuscate that fact from the player.
Yes, yes, that's what we are judging, if we get something else, we will change our opinions accordingly.
A17 was the first version and A18 is the second version. I think that A18 is better than A17. If someone thinks that A18 is the culmination and intended stopping point for how the zombies will behave then that is a misconception but it does seem by the way some post that they in fact do believe that TFP are done with zombie AI.
I also am under the impression that A18 AI is not as absurd as A17, yes.
faatal did a lot of work and he has more to do but he has been tasked elsewhere and so for the time being this is what we have. If the anger over what we have right now is rooted in thinking that what we have is the intended final product then let me reassure that it is not.
Good good, I too think that the AI needs more work, same page, that's great, though, waitaminute, "anger"? No anger, Roland, just "just saying".
As to what their final vision is for zombies is they want them to be challenging and fun. They don't want them getting stuck on decorations. They want them to be able to navigate effectively. They don't want them easily defeated by the first bloodmoon and then never pose a challenge ever again. They want to fix endless behavior loops. They do have truly intelligent enemies planned in the form of bandits so once bandits are in maybe zombies will be dumbified even more so there is a nice spread of enemy intelligence level.
Once more I agree, zombies should navigate effectively, blood moon should be a challenge, zombies should not be intelligent, but it would be great if other enemies, that are intelligent, would be added.
In the early days of the game most of these types of conversations about the immersion breaking behavior of zombies was focused on the fact that they could break down wood, concrete, and steel blocks with their bare hands and were upset for that reason that TFP called them zombies. I'll put my own Lorax face on and say that it seems that most players have come to finally accept that behavior as the normal behavior of TFP's zombies.
There is actually noone in this thread who is upset over the zombies being called zombies. That's either a misconception or a provocative, fact-twisting narrative. You decide.
And while it is being mentioned repeatedly, that it's unrealistic that zombies can break blocks made of materials that are harder than flesh and bones (which it obviously is), I have not seen anybody honestly complain about it, like I see ppl complain about the current AI. Zombies have to be able to break blocks, otherwise there is no game (just like survivors in movies often behave silly, cuz otherwise there would be no movie). The current AI, though, is not necessary, the game did not have it until recently.
But it looks like we're all on the same page. The new AI sucks. Here and there are good things, the former bugs are gone, if you say so, they are more efficient in navigating through POIs (can't say I notice that, cuz I kill em all), but horde night needs work. No enemy - in my opinion - should be able to see through walls and know exactly the path that leads to the player, including which blocks are the weakest.
I think that the general populace would look at anything that appears to be a zombie and call it a zombie regardless of behavior.
But the question is what does the general populace have in mind when you say "zombie". Something else than when you say "vampire". What? Creatures that ride horses and fire rifles? Creatures that spit acid and explode? Creatures that are highly intelligent? Solve crimes? Seek romance? No. They have in mind what we - with a very few exceptions - see in the Romero movies and - with zero exceptions - the TWD series. We all have that in mind when we just hear "it's a zombie game/movie/comic/book". You know, "all (not
all though)".
However, your thought inspired one of my own: It should be plausible that creators call anything a zombie, that has at least one characteristic of the old Romero zombies. And that's why. Though that, yet again, might be done to provide the consumer with a familiar label to increase sales.
