PC My 2 cents about how A17 could be improved

[RestInPieces]

Just so you know, I voted that the good things of A17 overshadow the bad. But here are my 2 cents about what could be improved:

Level gates:

I love the slower progression. And I don't particularly mind the current gating much. It's just that I think it could be done in a more "diplomatic" manner and allow for a tiny bit more specialization.

Misc:

-Add some secondary AI profiles identical to the main one with a few differences: e.g.

• some zombies choosing a slightly different path.
  
• several zombies keep hitting a block (like a foundation) while they can't reach you, instead of following you (e.g. running under you).
  
• several zombies behaving erratically/differently if a lot of other zombies are near (or on) them (to break the "beeline" and spread multiple zombies that hit one block *a little*).
  
• a few zombies falling instead of jumping (for flavor as well).
  

-Let zombies fall into disposable traps, like spikes, wire etc instead of going around them and balance traps accordingly.

-Decrease zombie block damage bonus a bit.

-Increase block building/upgrading speed, keep repairing speed slower if possible.

-Randomize POI spawn/sleeper count a bit.

-Remove the xp amounts gained from the UI. Enable them in debug.

-Balance xp sources /time as much as humanly possible, without taking action benefit (like harvested materials) into account.

-Make it so that quests/player donations, unlock shop inventories/upgrade shops to different tiers, so that getting items from traders is analogous to the crafting curve.

-Revisit loot lists to make some items more POI specific (I keep finding weapons in normal houses) and rarer (got tons of weapons and other "late" items at early game by looting).

-There is no thirst (regen) indicator (like with hunger) on the UI stamina bar. Could make it e.g. change color or "wither".

-Make encumberance slots lower priority slots than the belt (when you loot items). Could use more QOL improvement in the future so that the player opens his inventory as few times as possible.

-Is it even possible to get sick or infected? I got the "coming on" debuff countless times, had a lot of medicine lying around, but it just goes away by itself.

-Not a fan of pocket vehicles.

-Get spoilage into the game RIGHT NOW or in the future please.

-Stamina is absolutely fine btw, it's the only popular complaint I don't get at all. Is it because people don't drink until the icon shows up? Wrong perk choices? No idea. Get T-Rex, 69er and motherload for harvesting/mining, cardio for travelling, make sure you are hydrated, heavy armor also makes a small difference.

 

[Roland]

I think the complaints come from those who are used to starting big building projects right from the beginning or those who are wanting to hunt and kill zombies at a rapid pace in order to grind up the levels.

For everyday activities it seems to works fine but as soon as you want to be digging to bedrock or sledgehammering an entire horde it comes up short.

 

[Poojam]

I think the complaints come from those who are used to starting big building projects right from the beginning or those who are wanting to hunt and kill zombies at a rapid pace in order to grind up the levels.
For everyday activities it seems to works fine but as soon as you want to be digging to bedrock or sledgehammering an entire horde it comes up short.

I could barely tolerate A16's progression curve when it came to stamina, strength, and block damage (miner 69er). I tolerated it and just mined it out to get the levels so I could enjoy playing. A17 is slower, and locks more of the player's effectiveness/stamina regen away behind these perks. So you're mostly accurate here.

It's just, I disagree, by design, on what the "game" is with TFP. They seem to think the game is now about going from gimp to grunt over 50 real life hours of gameplay and finding satisfaction in that. I despise that. I think the game is being mostly grunt already and exploring, fighting, crafting, digging, and building. They have the best voxel game in the world at the moment, and they want to be Skyrim. Add enough things to do, recipes to discover, things to build, reasons to fight, things to obtain, reasons to compete/raid, and stuff to explore that people are entertained. The longevity of the game is in multiplayer, be it PVE or PVP. They should be focusing on player economies, steam workshop, server management tools, socialization, transportation, electric items, bandits, NPC's, and creating reasons to fight and compete with each other. I want large numbers of people to play the game. If they focus on a single player environment, where it's you vs the spreadsheet, it has very little replay value. edit - It also doesn't take advantage of their best asset, which is the voxels (mining and base building).

 

[.Markus]

I could barely tolerate A16's progression curve when it came to stamina, strength, and block damage (miner 69er). I tolerated it and just mined it out to get the levels so I could enjoy playing. A17 is slower, and locks more of the player's effectiveness/stamina regen away behind these perks. So you're mostly accurate here.
It's just, I disagree, by design, on what the "game" is with TFP. They seem to think the game is now about going from gimp to grunt over 50 real life hours of gameplay and finding satisfaction in that. I despise that. I think the game is being mostly grunt already and exploring, fighting, crafting, digging, and building. They have the best voxel game in the world at the moment, and they want to be Skyrim. Add enough things to do, recipes to discover, things to build, reasons to fight, things to obtain, reasons to compete/raid, and stuff to explore that people are entertained. The longevity of the game is in multiplayer, be it PVE or PVP. They should be focusing on player economies, steam workshop, server management tools, socialization, transportation, electric items, bandits, NPC's, and creating reasons to fight and compete with each other. I want large numbers of people to play the game. If they focus on a single player environment, where it's you vs the spreadsheet, it has very little replay value. edit - It also doesn't take advantage of their best asset, which is the voxels (mining and base building).

This is a damn good post.

 

[iejen]

They should be focusing on player economies, steam workshop, server management tools, socialization, transportation, electric items, bandits, NPC's.

Hi Poojam,

All these things are already being worked on lately or have been said that will be worked on.

For A17 they rebuild the base of the game.

For A18/Beta they will opt. and add content to the game.

I've been reading almost every posts the last year in the Dev Diary so;

I don't know how often you have been hanging around on the forum, but FYI;

Player economies - A15 release with the vending machines. one-on-one trading in on the wishlist.

Steam workshop - Has been said that will be done after Beta release, A17 made a huge step with the creator tool.

Server management tools - Look at the config.xml it's very easy to almost adjust anything in the server. For ingame tools i'm not 100% certain what they are planning. I know there are user created content that can do a lot.

Socialization - The Party update in A17 made a big step IMO. I'm sure they will improve this since Co-Op gameplay is the path they want to walk.

Transportation - A17 already improved with 3 new vehicle types. Also Joel never made it a secret that he would like to expand/improve this.

Electric items - Completely new in A16. Has been said that it will be expanded in the future

Bandits - Still on the list, hope for A18/Beta

NPC's - New on A15 and updated with quests in A17. Settlement are still on the list as far as I know.

Hope this gives you some new information.

- - - Updated - - -

-Stamina is absolutely fine btw, it's the only popular complaint I don't get at all. Is it because people don't drink until the icon shows up? Wrong perk choices? No idea. Get T-Rex, 69er and motherload for harvesting/mining, cardio for travelling, make sure you are hydrated, heavy armor also makes a small difference.

:strawberry: No one is going to approve this line :strawberry:

 

[Jugginator]

-Stamina is absolutely fine btw, it's the only popular complaint I don't get at all. Is it because people don't drink until the icon shows up? Wrong perk choices? No idea. Get T-Rex, 69er and motherload for harvesting/mining, cardio for travelling, make sure you are hydrated, heavy armor also makes a small difference.

:strawberry:I approve this line =p:strawberry:
Agree with everything. Pockable transport is silly, but until they're polished (no vanish bugs etc) I'd prefer to keep it as it is for now. And yes, I don't get why people female dog about stamina. Yes, you don't start the game like in a16 when you can sprint for 500 miles, but day 21 and I'm using a steel pick to knock out 12-14 nodes, and in my current run I'm at day 43-44 or so (i dont remember lol) and I destroyed an entire bank's safes without needing a break. Hell, I was watching it gain more than I lost.

 

[SickPuppy]

I think ppl just needed more time to adjust, a few perks stamina is fine. I like the slower pace of the early game, probably not the popular choice but makes a change from rushing everything by day7.

Some like more hardcore survival, some like underground to be a safe zone, some like more action, etc. I think TFP are trying hard to please everyone with the different stages of the game. Early feels survival based, late game more action oriented. It's a tough one to balance but it feels like it's going in the right direction, zombie new running speeds sounds great. Take The Long Dark for example, good game, but it leans very heavily on a passive survive the elements, and although it ticks a lot of boxes it bores the hell out of me, barely put in a dozen hours compared to thousands in 7dtd.

2 weeks of experimental hopefully we've given enough feedback for TFP to balance things out. Now with the new Unity upgrade we can look forward to new content.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I think the complaints come from those who are used to starting big building projects right from the beginning or those who are wanting to hunt and kill zombies at a rapid pace in order to grind up the levels.
For everyday activities it seems to works fine but as soon as you want to be digging to bedrock or sledgehammering an entire horde it comes up short.

No. Just no.

Like... its nice that you feel this way.

But A17 is a chore. I don'T want to do anything super huge. But placing one wood block that zombies chew through in less then 5 seconds takes about 10 seconds to place and upgrade (maybe more). Its not satisfying. Earlygame building is invalid and only becomes slightly better once you bought iron tools. I never even got to the midgame, because the earlygame feels like such a tedious grind. I'm not playing WoW here.

It's fine if the characterprogression is slower! But you know what would have been better then gutting the player? More stuff to do. But they actually removed stainless steel.

Again:

watch it roland! I'm serious. This explains perfectly what A17 did wrong, even if players enjoy it. (They enjoy the update, not the systems in place! At least most of them)

 

[Jugginator]

Idk, I get through early game just fine. Find a 2-story house, build some wood spikes, knock out any stairs or any paths to me and im golden for 2 weeks. Then I have iron tools and such to transition to mid-game and build a horde base with iron/cobblestone and spikes, then upgrade to spikes and concrete. Have to add, bit of a contradiction there, eh? "a17 did this wrong even if players enjoy it". So, the 'right' way is the way players don't enjoy it?

 

[LordoftheMoo]

Idk, I get through early game just fine. Find a 2-story house, build some wood spikes, knock out any stairs or any paths to me and im golden for 2 weeks. Then I have iron tools and such to transition to mid-game and build a horde base with iron/cobblestone and spikes, then upgrade to spikes and concrete. Have to add, bit of a contradiction there, eh? "a17 did this wrong even if players enjoy it". So, the 'right' way is the way players don't enjoy it?

How many RL hours does it take for you to reach mid-game in a run? What time-per-day do you use (60 or something else)? What difficulty level are you playing on when playing SP? This kind of information can be useful to people.

 

[Jugginator]

How many RL hours does it take for you to reach mid-game in a run? What time-per-day do you use (60 or something else)? What difficulty level are you playing on when playing SP? This kind of information can be useful to people.

Sure. Usually, advice is bashed with "wrong!" or "that's clearly not true and insulting!" lol. I'm not sure how many hours, usually, I play 1.5 - 3hrs a day either in the morning or night or some both. Either 30 mins or 40 min 24-hour cycles, and in A16 it was always insane, but until I got used to it I played on default, the latest run in 208 is one step up (I'm rather sleepy and can't remember the name for some reason). Other than that, just default settings, walk/run and all of that. I always complete the basic quests and gather wood/stone enough for arrows and such asap, and find the trader. I find a 2-story house that I can prevent any access at all on horde nights. Once I find that I balance hitting nodes (just enough for stone for arrows, maybe some raw iron to scrap for doors and an iron reinforced club. Then, I make sure I keep a stack and a half of arrows and maintain 1k wood and keep crafting spikes while hunting out a house with a forge in it (if the initial trader doesn't have a forge). While searching the houses, I do my best to pick up random loot/animals/forage for food while searching for another trader. All while crafting wood spikes, wood bars (ty fun pimps for these) and arrows; come day 7, all spikes are scattered and lined up along the walls (outside) and air-lock doors. IE, Door |spike| Door|spike| with open tops so I can shoot down on top of entrants -- on the top floor where I am, I knock out flooring above the air-locked doors and on the path to the removed staircase which they will path. Spikes along the way, wood bars on the outside of the top level of the house for me to shoot down as they make their way.

This works for me every playthrough in 17. After that, the rest of what I said in the other post.

 

[suicidalhamster]

I think the complaints come from those who are used to starting big building projects right from the beginning or those who are wanting to hunt and kill zombies at a rapid pace in order to grind up the levels.
For everyday activities it seems to works fine but as soon as you want to be digging to bedrock or sledgehammering an entire horde it comes up short.

right or wrong, i find it really hard to look at this and not read it as "you're not doing it right stoopids". it sounds (aka reads to me) like anyone that disagrees with the level system must fall into either "irrational builder" or "type-A bloodthirsty rage machine"

full disclosure, i like making big building projects. but only after i have a large stash of concrete. no point until then and i certainly dont rush to get there. i take or leave fighting hordes and am not much on the sledgehammer.

 

[Enderus]

I think the complaints come from those who are used to starting big building projects right from the beginning or those who are wanting to hunt and kill zombies at a rapid pace in order to grind up the levels.
For everyday activities it seems to works fine but as soon as you want to be digging to bedrock or sledgehammering an entire horde it comes up short.

That's one area of complaints from players with certain playstyles I guess, but I wouldn't say that it's the only place complaints are coming from. In particular, I think it is worth examining just how much has been shifted over to being solely dependent on gaining player levels. This affects more than just building and crafting.

Although I do understand why TFP might've had to skimp out in certain areas, especially after having roved over the xml's (and peeking at some of the code with a decompiler). Especially if they want to aim for a final release within the next year. The underlying framework and functionality kind of has to take priority.

 

[FileMachete]

<snip>

That was well worth watching. Thanks for posting it.

My summary of it;

Positive Rewards go over better and are more likely to get intended results than Negative Reinforcement.

-Always- seek out and consider the Unintended Consequences.

And, as always: Murphy's 13th Law. Make it Idiot proof, and we'll build a better Idiot.

----

As I'm just now getting a peek into how 'mid' game (very early mid, say standing in the grey zone between Early & Mid), I can dimly see what Jugginator and others have been saying. Basically, "it gets much better/too easy". "Better" is great news.

Yet Beginning-Early feels less 'fun' than A16. I do like that it's 'harder' than A16. And though I'd really prefer zombie damage to have a ramp up so early basebuilding out of wood/flag/cobb would be viable, if the only late game outcome would be A16 easy, then I'll adjust.

I do believe that TFPs are working on the 'early' game; already been a couple tweaks, with almost certainly more to come.

As others have said, the quite lengthy wait for A17 didn't do it any favors. I along with many others had unconsiously equated time = more&better. And even though the devs/mods repeatedly pointed out and advised to view it as a 'new game', that's been either easy advice to ignore &/or a bitter pill to swallow.

The recent unveiling of new game options for walk/jog/run/insane & when, is incredibly good news. A couple more 'base' options like that and the configurable gap between Casual & Hardcore will be so expanded that, maybe, only the very most extreme cases won't find satisfactory settings. And that'll be better than 'damn good', it will deserve a standing ovation.

 

[PinkLed5]

Again:

Love videos like that, thanks for sharing.

However, I'm not sure how it applies to 7D2D. You'll need to elaborate on that part.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Love videos like that, thanks for sharing.
However, I'm not sure how it applies to 7D2D. You'll need to elaborate on that part.

It doesn’t. Vik’s problem is that his view of fun and the dev’s view of fun is different.

 

[Reth]

[...] They have the best voxel game in the world at the moment, and they want to be Skyrim. Add enough things to do, recipes to discover, things to build, reasons to fight, things to obtain, reasons to compete/raid, and stuff to explore that people are entertained. The longevity of the game is in multiplayer, be it PVE or PVP. They should be focusing on player economies, steam workshop, server management tools, socialization, transportation, electric items, bandits, NPC's, and creating reasons to fight and compete with each other. I want large numbers of people to play the game. If they focus on a single player environment, where it's you vs the spreadsheet, it has very little replay value. edit - It also doesn't take advantage of their best asset, which is the voxels (mining and base building).

Agree wholeheartedly. The should capitalize the assets they already have, not try to be some other game. They shouldn't try to reproduce SCUM's survival elements, Rimworld's challenges or Skyrim's dungeons. More PoIs? Great. But don't make your entire game about them. That's not where 7D2D potential strength is. Voxel game. Building. Trading. Crafting. TFP got a gem they should just polish, instead they are trying to turn into a standard brick.