PC Multiplayer Sad State of Affairs

[knusper]

First the game isn’t designed nor ever sold to support 30/40/50 player plus servers.

It doesnt even run with 8 smooth right now......see thats the problem. The whole netcode is trash it worked in the past but little by little its getting worse. Why keep ppl saying the game never sold for Multiplayer ? do you really need to see the Kickstarter? it even mentioned PvP. But thats not the point. The point is the netcode is so bad that even 8 ppl cant have a hordenight on a dedicated server without the whole thing exploding. Even with 8 ppl chunks get corrupted regular ...server crashes etc pp. Yes these problems happen more often the more players you have but if you keep repeating " its made for 8 Players stop complaining" you miss the problem which is that the netcode of this game is so bad that if it doesnt change sooner or later there wont be any multiplayer at all. What bull do i have to read then? The game is made for CO OP only?

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

Hello. No doubt some of you have seen some of my posts before and see where this is likely going, but I feel it's needed now more than ever before.
20.4 feels like the final nail in the coffin for many of us who host larger multiplayer servers. Most of us don't know the reasons why, but the game has never been more unstable than now. Yes, yes... I get it, the game is built for 8 player co-op. And despite it saying things like "Online PVP" on the store page, the fine print of that supposedly refers to organized fights on these small 8 player servers... not what we had in mind. While I think that's a bit misleading, this is not the crux of my argument.

Not long ago, even as recent as 19.2, average servers could host up to 50 players with little issue. 19.3 came, and knocked that down to about 35. 20.4 came, and for whatever reason, it feels like anything above 16 is muddy waters. The new server filters are atrocious and I haven't heard of anyone liking them. I do see the benefit in them, especially for showing servers right away that used to take a while to show up... but man is it a bad look when searching for any region always shows the first 6 as the same chinese servers (using a borderline illegal bypass of steam authentication servers to get around this game's terrible netcode i might add. Yes, Pimps. You'll see all these servers at the top of the list use something called NAIWAZI serverkit. It'd be in your best interest to look into that).

For a while, I had been running one of the more successful of these servers, and I keep in contact with the other server owners with similar size population.. and they feel the same. I understand the Pimps don't want to enter an arms race with hackers. I'm not talking about this. There's a lot of modders in this community and we have been doing fine on our own in that regard. Many people want to play this game in other ways besides singleplayer and coop. We all know there is no real end-game yet, and involving more players in the mix always extends playtime despite that. We love the game, and we see the potential it has... but we feel like the butt of every joke on these forums and even some of the bigger discords for the game. It feels like if you don't play singleplayer, casual coop or only make POIs/Pixel art you're treated as some kind of impostor here.

I'm hanging up my coat and calling it quits. Several others are doing the same. We can't host our servers on a game that is fighting us every minute we try to. The netcode is so horrible, there is so much unnecessary information the game shares between players that it makes it unplayable in too many cases. Even the netpackages that get sent to every player that determine player movement? They're PREDICTIVE. What do I mean by this? You ever see other players on MP rubberband really bad? Well instead of the game actually trying to update netpackages on their actual positions, it *predicts* where they are moving instead. Server somewhat laggy? That guy outside of the building might be inside the building on his screen, or somewhere else... the game is trying to predict where instead of actually showing where.

Memory leaks are horrendous. You can't keep these servers online for more than 2 hours without things becoming unplayable and needing a restart. Also, try tap firing an auger constantly instead of holding mouse down... you'll find that eventually, firing any weapon will make anyone in that area/chunk get like 1 fps because of the sequenced audio on the auger being interrupted and going into memory. But hey, we're fine with this stuff. We can work around it. What we can't work around and can only try our best to lessen is the aformentioned netcode issues.

The last time I had posted threads on this, someone was able to get Madmole himself to speak on it... and he referenced last January that they were getting some engineers in to hopefully "let us enjoy big servers again"... but there has been effectively no further word on this.

Thread in question:



I am sad I have to leave the game I love behind for the sake of my own sanity. I know it's a futile effort to please everyone, but this effects a pretty big portion of the player base who I know stay around much longer than your average person who only decides to boot up the game for a while after a new update happens.
I am not trying to speak down to anyone's playstyle, but I feel mocked or ridiculed when I bring these things up in more public spaces for this game, such as these forums. No, I am not asking for PUBG, Rust, or whatever else is easiest to discard my argument with.. I am asking for 7 Days to Die. Players are what make a game, please let us play with more of them at once.

you realize you can just revert your server right? Do a19.6 if you are mad. More importantly everyone knows a20.4 is definitely broken. Fun fact you can go drop back to a20.3 and have no lag and no mod changes. I feel like you are just ranting to rant which I am frustrated with a20.4 too but I would be livid if they didn't allow me to revert - then I would have no mercy to the amount of flames I would spew. The fact is; it is alpha and it will break.

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

It doesnt even run with 8 smooth right now......see thats the problem. The whole netcode is trash it worked in the past but little by little its getting worse. Why keep ppl saying the game never sold for Multiplayer ? do you really need to see the Kickstarter? it even mentioned PvP. But thats not the point. The point is the netcode is so bad that even 8 ppl cant have a hordenight on a dedicated server without the whole thing exploding. Even with 8 ppl chunks get corrupted regular ...server crashes etc pp. Yes these problems happen more often the more players you have but if you keep repeating " its made for 8 Players stop complaining" you miss the problem which is that the netcode of this game is so bad that if it doesnt change sooner or later there wont be any multiplayer at all. What bull do i have to read then? The game is made for CO OP only?

Works okay with five for me. However I agree the horde nights could use a performance bump.

 

[knusper]

you realize you can just revert your server right? Do a19.6 if you are mad. More importantly everyone knows a20.4 is definitely broken. Fun fact you can go drop back to a20.3 and have no lag and no mod changes. I feel like you are just ranting to rant which I am frustrated with a20.4 too but I would be livid if they didn't allow me to revert - then I would have no mercy to the amount of flames I would spew. The fact is; it is alpha and it will break.

Well i guess thats it then...pack ur things bois, any problems? just revert back. It is exactly the opposite of good ....You know when ppl startet saying netcode is "@%$#" ? 2016/17 I wish ppl would have not said the same thing back then (ANYTHING and ppl would write stop being mad its alpha ) Also reverting back to when? the whole 20x Cycle is riddled with game breaking bugs (stability bug was so bad even solo ur base would crumble if you didnt recalced the chunk) and yes I do know its alpha but there needs to be SERIOUS housekeeping being done at the code base because it looks like the foundation is crumbling. And I wish ppl would stop writing this being mad @%$#..critique is not being mad its a good thing....it helps pointing out mistakes.

 

[Pernicious]

And I wish ppl would stop writing this being mad @%$#..critique is not being mad its a good thing....it helps pointing out mistakes.

Submitting replicatable bug reports helps pointing out mistakes.

Making generic critical comments like the netcode is trash, and comparing a real time strategy game with a couple hundred units to a first person shooter with tens of thousands of entities and blocks needing stability checks doesn't help improve the game.

 

[knusper]

Bug reports are LONG made.....they were made YEARS ago.

 

[Pernicious]

Bug reports are LONG made.....they were made YEARS ago.

You mean complaints were made years ago?

If it's a replicable bug report, can you post a copy here? If a packet dump or trace is available, I'd love to have a look myself.

 

[Matt115]

.

That is the entire issue with their approach. They want to go back to multiplayer later and fix stuff they have been ignoring. It will be a sad affair when they realize the mess they have created which may not be readily fixed. GTA is a great example of this. They focus solely on solo player development. When crunch time came and release dates were coming due, they had to push back and delay over and over because the multiplayer was a mess. The amount of short cuts they took in the end is evident in the game play, server filters, bugs, lack of balance.

We are seeing the same thing here. If multiplayer is not a focus from the start, it should just be removed. You don't design a single player game and then just squeeze in multi. As it stands, the dedicated server is technically a client that does not load the visual process yet responds and operates very much the same. It is no wonder servers run like garbage. They are not truly dedicate servers nor is the game coded for it

Yes,they focus on solo player. Bugs are in boths SP and MP so... this is normal. Balance? well that's point of post apo - there is no balance

Sigh I hate topics like this……

First the game isn’t designed nor ever sold to support 30/40/50 player plus servers.

Second even though it is in alpha don’t you think it’s getting kind of old? Do you really expect 50 people to play on the same damn server FOREVER?
Third when you get tired of playing the game or it has lost its fun nobody gives a crap about a long winded good bye. Nobody cares.

Fourth sounds like you had hundreds maybe thousands of hours of entertainment for what are $20 spent, that’s an INCREDIBLE value.

I usually don't agree with you but this time we are on this side

It doesnt even run with 8 smooth right now......see thats the problem. The whole netcode is trash it worked in the past but little by little its getting worse. Why keep ppl saying the game never sold for Multiplayer ? do you really need to see the Kickstarter? it even mentioned PvP. But thats not the point. The point is the netcode is so bad that even 8 ppl cant have a hordenight on a dedicated server without the whole thing exploding. Even with 8 ppl chunks get corrupted regular ...server crashes etc pp. Yes these problems happen more often the more players you have but if you keep repeating " its made for 8 Players stop complaining" you miss the problem which is that the netcode of this game is so bad that if it doesnt change sooner or later there wont be any multiplayer at all. What bull do i have to read then? The game is made for CO OP only?

Nope, you can play both : coop and PVP. Nobody say if this have to be a lot of players. If there will be even 1vs1 still it's PVP. So they added PVP - you can choose this menu. They don't promise it will PVP focused. small example - if you were 10 yo kid and your parents promise you new shoes and you get 1 dollar sneakers but you expect 100 dollars new balance it's don't mean your parents lie. Just it mean your expectation were too high 

 

[Howlune]

Sigh I hate topics like this……

First the game isn’t designed nor ever sold to support 30/40/50 player plus servers.

Second even though it is in alpha don’t you think it’s getting kind of old? Do you really expect 50 people to play on the same damn server FOREVER?
Third when you get tired of playing the game or it has lost its fun nobody gives a crap about a long winded good bye. Nobody cares.

Fourth sounds like you had hundreds maybe thousands of hours of entertainment for what are $20 spent, that’s an INCREDIBLE value.

Sigh I hate replies like this.

Setting your server back to a previous alpha means your server is now pretty much unseen by the majority and the only way others can discover it is by word of mouth or advertising. Then, you have to expect these others players to set their own game to a previous alpha, which is 2 or 3 clicks too many for your average person before they give up or get too confused.

Also, you're projecting on whether or not a big population will stick around. They have. They would continue to. For the better half of a year, and at least two or so months of this year, I had my server at 30-40 people, much of them familiar and regular faces. These are the people who keep a game thriving long term, not someone who buys the game, plays singleplayer or coop until either day 7-50, then calls it quits.

We know for a fact the game was capable of holding 50 people and staying stable not too long ago, we didnt complain when it got cut down to 40.. but were showing concern that the game suddenly cant even handle more than say, 15. It's a downgrade and loss in overall performance no matter what context.

If I had a penny for everyone who basically said "if you dont like it dont play it".. such a useless argument.

 

[Matt115]

Sigh I hate replies like this.

Setting your server back to a previous alpha means your server is now pretty much unseen by the majority and the only way others can discover it is by word of mouth or advertising. Then, you have to expect these others players to set their own game to a previous alpha, which is 2 or 3 clicks too many for your average person before they give up or get too confused.

Also, you're projecting on whether or not a big population will stick around. They have. They would continue to. For the better half of a year, and at least two or so months of this year, I had my server at 30-40 people, much of them familiar and regular faces. These are the people who keep a game thriving long term, not someone who buys the game, plays singleplayer or coop until either day 7-50, then calls it quits.

We know for a fact the game was capable of holding 50 people and staying stable not too long ago, we didnt complain when it got cut down to 40.. but were showing concern that the game suddenly cant even handle more than say, 15. It's a downgrade and loss in overall performance no matter what context.

If I had a penny for everyone who basically said "if you dont like it dont play it".. such a useless argument.

If the offical max number is 8 more people  is your choice and it's no TFP problem. So ofc you can play in more that 8 people but on your own risk

 

[knusper]

If the offical max number is 8 more people  is your choice and it's no TFP problem. So ofc you can play in more that 8 people but on your own risk

It doesnt run with 8 either just how many times it needs to be said? Dedicated servers are a mess right now and they were for a long time .....corrupted chunks.....Player profiles getting reset......sleeping bag switching....other players claims showing those bugs have all NOTHING to do with max number 8 ppl...not even mentioning NON game breaking bugs like turrets not shooting etc pp

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

It doesnt run with 8 either just how many times it needs to be said? Dedicated servers are a mess right now and they were for a long time .....corrupted chunks.....Player profiles getting reset......sleeping bag switching....other players claims showing those bugs have all NOTHING to do with max number 8 ppl...not even mentioning NON game breaking bugs like turrets not shooting etc pp

Putting aside 20.4 we need to define “a mess”, as I said earlier my server works fine with 5 player. Just got off about 30 minutes ago.

Fine to me is the game runs with minimal stutter and rare instances where a player drops for whatever reason. I expect to frequently see zombies, I expect a large world 10k minimum, I expect good sized hordes, I expect to have fun playing.

I do not expect 60+ fps, I do not expect any game to be bug or trouble free, I do not expect (however I’d love to have it) hundreds of zombies on the screen at once.

Maybe you simply have higher expectations than I do and that’s okay. Look for something else to play if 7D2D isn’t meeting your expectations. There are plenty of other things to do.

 

[Roland]

Whether the feedback is given in official bug reports or critical rants here is largely immaterial. The bugs are all already known issues. Posting more of either (reports or rants) isn't going to make it more or less known. The devs have their priorities and that is all there is to it.

We could take bets on whether it will be the PvP crowd or the console crowd that will get what they want out of TFP first...

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

Whether the feedback is given in official bug reports or critical rants here is largely immaterial. The bugs are all already known issues. Posting more of either (reports or rants) isn't going to make it more or less known. The devs have their priorities and that is all there is to it.

We could take bets on whether it will be the PvP crowd or the console crowd that will get what they want out of TFP first...

Gotta be honest, I am slightly concerned about 7D2D getting infected with Consolitis.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Consolitis

 

[Roland]

Fine to me is the game runs with minimal stutter and rare instances where a player drops for whatever reason. I expect to frequently see zombies, I expect a large world 10k minimum, I expect good sized hordes, I expect to have fun playing.

I do not expect 60+ fps, I do not expect any game to be bug or trouble free, I do not expect (however I’d love to have it) hundreds of zombies on the screen at once.

Maybe you simply have higher expectations than I do and that’s okay. Look for something else to play if 7D2D isn’t meeting your expectations. There are plenty of other things to do.

I think this may be an important point but not exactly regarding expectations. It could be that PvP gameplay demands higher standards than PvE. If you are trying to take aim at another human player, that is a lot different than aiming at zombies and probably is much more adversely affected by a poor frame rate or lost packets and imbalances in connectivity. Who cares about look around under ground for PvE but with PvP that is game breaking. Even dupe cheats are much more significant when you are competing vs cooperating. 

So someone playing with 5 players cooperatively might be having a super fun experience while 5 players who are competing against each other and trying to locate hidden bases and get ahead in the arms race and defensive items faster might find things much more frustrating and unplayable because they can't hit the other player due to net performance, people can look around underground and see hidden bases, and figure out dupe cheats that will help them rocket up the progression ladder faster than the other players. Bugs like these can sit around almost unnoticed or at least ignored by the solo and co-op players for years.

TFP is aware of these bugs but I think they are content to leave things as "good enough" for solo and PvE players for the time being. I know they aren't trying to compete with other more dedicated PvP offerings out there.

 

[knusper]

Look for something else to play if 7D2D isn’t meeting your expectations. There are plenty of other things to do.

why? I want this game to be better.....you see what you did there taking my critique and tell me to f off into the sunshine when I dont like it. I repeat again critique doesnt mean i dont like the game. I am happy your server works doesmt mean that I am wrong. The bugs I mentioned are well documented and in the game for years.

Again jsut so it is clear...we all love the game. We just want the foundation to be better .

So someone playing with 5 players cooperatively might be having a super fun experience while 5 players who are competing against each other and trying to locate hidden bases and get ahead in the arms race and defensive items faster might find things much more frustrating and unplayable because they can't hit the other player due to net performance, people can look around underground and see hidden bases, and figure out dupe cheats that will help them rocket up the progression ladder faster than the other players. Bugs like these can sit around almost unnoticed or at least ignored by the solo and co-op players for years.

Now this i can sign 110%!!

 

[Vedui]

In my experience running multiplayer for many years, is that small group PvE works fine, small "fun" local PvP shoot-outs work alright, but going beyond 8 players PvE (not even talking about PvP), or even PvP with players spread around the world makes things a challenge to say the least!

However while I'd love to have a perfect game on both PvE and PvP, I'd rather have a 2x as good a game in PvE that had NO PvP at all, rather than bump up the PvP capabilities to be on parity with how PvE right now. For anyone who plays "dedicated pvp" games, be it fortnite or Battlefield or CoD or whatever flavour one might prefer, latency, networking capability and so on are huge deals. I've yet to see any Open World Sandbox Building Crafting game do great PvP for that reason, even though certainly some can be better, and some can be worse.

Still, even with what we have now some fun occasional player killing shooting or melee fights happen (especially during mischief maker hunger games), and it works well enough for a laugh, but I can appreciate PvP servers having a challenge to create fun gameplay. But, I'd still prefer time was spent on the PvE experience over PvP experience nonetheless.

 

[SylenThunder]

Gotta be honest, I am slightly concerned about 7D2D getting infected with Consolitis.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Consolitis

I don't see this as being an issue. The developer isn't a console dev. They plan to finish the PC game first, and then it will be ported to the consoles. Also note that the current consoles do not have most of the limitations that that statement is based on. 

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

I don't see this as being an issue. The developer isn't a console dev. They plan to finish the PC game first, and then it will be ported to the consoles. Also note that the current consoles do not have most of the limitations that that statement is based on. 

Fair enough, I was making the big assumption it would be cross platform play.

I do say current consoles are different an obvious example is console still can’t use mice & keyboard controls to my knowledge which could be wrong.

 

[RyanX]

And moders create in l4d2 8VS8 mods too. well 7dtd is more about playing with few friends that play with more number players. They decided to focus on PVE not on PVP. so that's why number of 8 is perfects - max number of npc is 64 = max number of players 8 so 64:8=8 npc per player. You say it could be 30?  no. 64:32 = 2 npc per player = small number right? So too kep high number of zombie (main enemy) you have to reduce max number of players = 8 players is good enough

That's not how it works.  In a larger Multiplayer server some people are building, some people are mining, some people are looting, so generally you still the same number of zombies when you are out.