PC More is better

[fallenbox]

Hi people and devs, i'm having a blasting again finally with a18 + mods but i'm still having some answers for the vanilla game concept:

We will see more contents in general ? i like how big and complex the game can be but i still believe that it has no reached his full potential, i would love to see a big variety of traps, more weapon and enemies with unique gameplay concept and more items and materials to expand gameplay options, and more than everything the realization of the physics in the gameplay, something like trap that uses a thread that once snapped drop a bunch of rocks on zombies, or maybe 2 tree chunks that once triggered impact smashing enemies in between (kinda like the star wars traps), even tho the game is still enjoyable after a while it feel lackster in terms of opportunity, combat is very arcadey and rpg aspect are very basic, tower defense side is basically putting the same traps in the same path also because of the poor IA.

Are those improvements likely or would that be just too much ?

 

[Khulkhuum]

I'm in for more traps and variety, but it all boils down to not duplicating things too much. Same goes for new materials and resources.

You could add 10 new traps made out of wood that dish out damage, but that would only overcomplicate an already somewhat steady balance in the traps. On the other hand, if you had 5 to 10 tiers of traps you could use, each made from progressively better materials, it would be lots better. Even if you had 3-4 traps per type of material used, people will generally use the most efficient one or the most damage/cost balanced one.

Similar with materials and resources. I'd love the game to be divided better with the types of resources (not that it's bad, rather it could be improved), shifting the focus towards higher quality materials out of which you could build structures and craft items. Many games put focus on such design, but on the other hand it doesn't have to be here for the game to be successful.

Variety is most of the time good(in some cases too much variety is bad), but it all comes down to what TFP will want to do with the game.

 

[RestInPieces]

I don't think that the amount of content is lacking in this game, but its utilization. What would be the use of, say, 10 new materials, if players could still skip them and went from wood straight to concrete, like it has been discussed in the dev diary? Same with everything else.

 

[fallenbox]

I'm in for more traps and variety, but it all boils down to not duplicating things too much. Same goes for new materials and resources.
You could add 10 new traps made out of wood that dish out damage, but that would only overcomplicate an already somewhat steady balance in the traps. On the other hand, if you had 5 to 10 tiers of traps you could use, each made from progressively better materials, it would be lots better. Even if you had 3-4 traps per type of material used, people will generally use the most efficient one or the most damage/cost balanced one.

Similar with materials and resources. I'd love the game to be divided better with the types of resources (not that it's bad, rather it could be improved), shifting the focus towards higher quality materials out of which you could build structures and craft items. Many games put focus on such design, but on the other hand it doesn't have to be here for the game to be successful.

Variety is most of the time good(in some cases too much variety is bad), but it all comes down to what TFP will want to do with the game.

i agree with your concerns, i would be worried about balance too but to think about it things got very stale on the "base defending side" of the game, a lot of opportunity to face zombies have been taken out such as high pits that kill zombies by fall damage, underground building and more on, there is already an almost forced option to play which is basically building a killing corridor and farm ammo as much possible to face blood moon and it get old very quickly playing that way, i would love to see a much richer game contents even for the replayability alone, after all the game is more oriented on PVE and things beeing OP are less worrying than we actually think imho since tweaking it is easier, even exploring for how much inspiring it is, is basically "just find the biggest amount of things, not the actual you need because you gonna find them anyway", i never struggled finding what i needed and i've always been able to take everything from loot without the anxiety to choose the most important things even at lower % of loot, i think the best way to work around the problem would be in fact adding contents and putting somewhat layers of importance and specificity of use to them leading to a more complex "thinking" instead of cutting out problematic aspect like they did with a17 leaving people to rely on the remaining opportunity.

 

[Roland]

a lot of opportunity to face zombies have been taken out such as high pits that kill zombies by fall damage, underground building and more.

First, it is the opposite that is true for underground zombies. Before people built underground for the express purpose of NOT facing zombies but now when you build underground you do have opportunities to face zombies because they are no longer shielded from that domain.

Second, fall pits that instantly kill zombies is not facing them either. They die before they get to you. Now they fall and then you get to face them precisely because they didn’t die.

Both of your examples were old ways that players could sit in a base and go afk and never face any zombies and the change has increased the opportunities to actually interact with them face to face.

Now I’m curious about what you are counting in “more”.....

 

[Adam the Waster]

Now I’m curious about what you are counting in “more”.....

Thanks for asking!

anything in-game that you can play with!

But One Dream i have for this game is just add a few more Special zombies to spice things up!

 

[fallenbox]

First, it is the opposite that is true for underground zombies. Before people built underground for the express purpose of NOT facing zombies but now when you build underground you do have opportunities to face zombies because they are no longer shielded from that domain.
Second, fall pits that instantly kill zombies is not facing them either. They die before they get to you. Now they fall and then you get to face them precisely because they didn’t die.

Both of your examples were old ways that players could sit in a base and go afk and never face any zombies and the change has increased the opportunities to actually interact with them face to face.

Now I’m curious about what you are counting in “more”.....

i'm not talking for other players so do not attribute others people intention to me since i'm a single individual, both pits and underground bases were a different way for me to fight zombies, i can't understand what you mean when you say that both were a way to not fight zombies, i've always used pits to damage the hordes and undeground windows and bunkers to end them without wasting milions of bullets, by more i mean the expanses of traps that for me at least was the cheapest and more affordable way to defend the base but is not possible anymore since a lot of the times zombies seems to know how hard would it be to go in a specific direction and pick up the easiest way to reach me out, even trap rooms seems to not work anymore which was another cool way to trap zombies in specific layers of room and end them room by room.

Every one can still avoid blood moons just by leaving the server and rejoining it after some minutes, or driving away and roaming with any veichle or way fast enough to outrun them which is still very doable.

I'm curious about what are you counting has "the change has increased the opportunities to actually interact with them face to face."

Also the topic was about a whole different thing.

 

[RipClaw]

I don't think that the amount of content is lacking in this game, but its utilization. What would be the use of, say, 10 new materials, if players could still skip them and went from wood straight to concrete, like it has been discussed in the dev diary? Same with everything else.

In my experience, people tend to go from wood to cobblestone.

In A17 the upgrade path was from wood over iron to concrete. Now it's from wood to cobblestone, and that holds up well enough for the first horde and maybe even the second horde.

If the Fun Pimps wanted players to build more with wood, they should not have increased the zombie's block damage.

 

[RestInPieces]

In my experience, people tend to go from wood to cobblestone.
In A17 the upgrade path was from wood over iron to concrete. Now it's from wood to cobblestone, and that holds up well enough for the first horde and maybe even the second horde.

If the Fun Pimps wanted players to build more with wood, they should not have increased the zombie's block damage.

Here's my experience with these specific settings: Day - 30min, BM - 4-10 days, 100% block damage, nomad/warrior, 25% loot.

First two, perhaps even 3 horde nights are defensible with wood and a lot of spikes.

By the 3rd I already saved/melted enough stone and just upgrade to concrete. Seems impractical to use stone for cobblestone and having to repair it, so I just upgrade straight away to concrete, or start from iron frames if I have enough iron.

 

[blugold1]

i'm not talking for other players so do not attribute others people intention to me since i'm a single individual, both pits and underground bases were a different way for me to fight zombies, i can't understand what you mean when you say that both were a way to not fight zombies, i've always used pits to damage the hordes and undeground windows and bunkers to end them without wasting milions of bullets, by more i mean the expanses of traps that for me at least was the cheapest and more affordable way to defend the base but is not possible anymore since a lot of the times zombies seems to know how hard would it be to go in a specific direction and pick up the easiest way to reach me out, even trap rooms seems to not work anymore which was another cool way to trap zombies in specific layers of room and end them room by room.Every one can still avoid blood moons just by leaving the server and rejoining it after some minutes, or driving away and roaming with any veichle or way fast enough to outrun them which is still very doable.

I'm curious about what are you counting has "the change has increased the opportunities to actually interact with them face to face."

Also the topic was about a whole different thing.

IMO, too many people watch the main streamers and just copy their ideas. With the change to A18, I had to rethink my base design and was still able create two different designs that require pretty much no ammo to defend. I usually profit ammo on BM’s. Heck, I even took a cobblestone only base against a GS 1000+ horde on insane + 64 zombies and came out unharmed. Give me 500 cobblestone blocks and I’ll build you a base that’ll allow you to literally ignore anything that comes your way

 

[RipClaw]

Seems impractical to use stone for cobblestone and having to repair it, so I just upgrade straight away to concrete, or start from iron frames if I have enough iron.

You find so much cobblestone in POIs that you don't have to make it yourself. The Home Depot is for example a good place to find cobblestone. It can also be bought cheaply from the trader.

 

[quyxkh]

I like BTD6 a lot, but 7DtD shouldn't go that way. If you're not personally in the 7DtD fight, you should lose. Fast and hard. Ghostlight's got a good point: a lot of the fun is in the desperation.

 

[Roland]

I didn’t attribute other players actions to you. I attributed them to other players. What’s not to understand? Zombies couldn’t dig so people were 100% safe. There was zero facing of zombies when in an underground bunker. Now that they can dig there is more facing of zombies when underground.

Your tactic of killing them from below was 100% risk free. All that reward of loot (previously) and xp for zero risk because the zombies couldn’t dig. Now that they can you can still use your tactic but it is riskier. They could breach your position. That’s what I would call actually facing zombies.

When zombies used to die from fall damage that was it. They never progressed to your walls let alone facing you because they died at the base of the cliff where they fell. How is that facing zombies?

Sorry if this isn’t what you want to talk about but I was just responding to what you brought up and the claim you made. I won’t continue this argument if you feel it is off topic. I would love for there to be more trap variety and more options for defense. I just disagree that instant death from falling and an inability to dig constitute taking options away from the player.

 

[RipClaw]

I like BTD6 a lot, but 7DtD shouldn't go that way. If you're not personally in the 7DtD fight, you should lose. Fast and hard. Ghostlight's got a good point: a lot of the fun is in the desperation.

You may enjoy fear and desperation but I've had more than enough of both in my life. I have also never understood this addiction to adrenaline that seems to drive some people.

What I enjoy in this game is building and that is also the reason why I don't get bored easily. I can build one base after the other and see if it works or not.

 

[RestInPieces]

You find so much cobblestone in POIs that you don't have to make it yourself. The Home Depot is for example a good place to find cobblestone. It can also be bought cheaply from the trader.

I just didn't bother doing that though, since wooden fortifications did the trick until I was able to upgrade straight to concrete 5k life blocks and stop relying on spikes.

 

[fallenbox]

I didn’t attribute other players actions to you. I attributed them to other players. What’s not to understand? Zombies couldn’t dig so people were 100% safe. There was zero facing of zombies when in an underground bunker. Now that they can dig there is more facing of zombies when underground.
Your tactic of killing them from below was 100% risk free. All that reward of loot (previously) and xp for zero risk because the zombies couldn’t dig. Now that they can you can still use your tactic but it is riskier. They could breach your position. That’s what I would call actually facing zombies.

When zombies used to die from fall damage that was it. They never progressed to your walls let alone facing you because they died at the base of the cliff where they fell. How is that facing zombies?

Sorry if this isn’t what you want to talk about but I was just responding to what you brought up and the claim you made. I won’t continue this argument if you feel it is off topic. I would love for there to be more trap variety and more options for defense. I just disagree that instant death from falling and an inability to dig constitute taking options away from the player.

I'm not saying you were wrong do not get me wrong on that, you are fully right saying people should not be totally safe, i was just pointing out that totally removing problematic gameplay concept may be not healty, zombies dying by falling was an issue i agree, but rendering useless an entire way of playing the game is way more of an issue, what could have been done ( even if way too hard as i imagine ) could have been zombies climbing down to your base for example or digging zombies like, i'm more for fix whats wrong instead of removing it, personally for me what keeps me playing the game is the sense of freedome i get from playing the game, building my base with my real life home design, searching for materials and needing to innovate the way i approach the game with the different situations is the core concept of my play style. Thats why my wish is for an even more enlarged game world

 

[Khulkhuum]

My suggestion about falling zombies: Don't wanna read it, skip it.

Considering fall damage for Zs, i'd add something like a maximum damage given to them based off falling, so it wouldn't be possible to kill
any zombie from a 60m fall. For example, at 20+ meters a zombie would lose at maximum 140 HP, nothing more. If you have weaker Zs, they 
will die instantly sure, but those that have more HP will survive, leaving the possibility of digging underground and shaking the structural
integrity of things above.

On the other hand i would expect Zs to take less damage than the player. For example: 8m = 20HP loss, 10m = 40 HP, 12m = 60HP, ..., 20m  and 
more = 140 HP loss. At some point, lets say around 14m there is a small chance for leg dismemberment, rising up each meter to max 25% chance.
All of this doesn't count any traps the zombies could fall on top of. The traps could enhance the damage taken and increase dismemberment 
chance, but would still cap at a certain point just above the initial damage. This secures the position of pitfalls not being ultimate 
defenses against stronger hordes. Also, spikes at the bottom would require regular repairs, so it's not like it's cost free, not to mention 
the amount of time and resources needed to dig that hole out and fill it with spikes is pretty great.

With all of that, i would expect early BM hordes and weak wandering hordes to be obliterated by the pits, yet stronger zombies will survive 
and could dig the support of your "box", which you're holed in. Now imagine digging out that 20m deep ditch and making a 5x5 concrete 
tower in the center. Now i'm digging out a 7x7 square 10m down and filling it with reinforced concrete (from rebar frames). My cement mixers 
and forges have never processed SO MUCH stone in a short time.

---------------------------

@Roland - if you don't want players to zero face zombies, then take away the turrets, all types of traps and other defenses. With a proper setup i wouldn't have to lift a finger in the same manner as hopping onto a bike/minibike/motorcycle and driving far enough to not care. It's not a matter of cheesing the system, but progression SHOULD allow for being strong enough to "shrug off" the weakest enemies and later on perhaps even the semi-hard ones. Doesn't matter if you do it by cheesing the AI so they fall onto spike traps, make a big pit, use trap doors, a kill corridor or an elevated walkway, use dart/blade traps, mines, explosives, elaborate labirynths or whatever.

Just like when you invest into gun skills and later in the game you can one-shot heads off from non-ferals. In my opionion, there always needs to be a point where you're strong enough to easily take down most enemies, but the strongest ones. It makes you feel strong, but you still can die.

 

[Kalarro]

They are still switching things around unsuccessfully trying to make early game slower instead of creating endgame content. Since like a16.

Im half joking.

 

[Khulkhuum]

They are still switching things around unsuccessfully trying to make early game slower instead of creating endgame content. Since like a16. Im half joking.

From sporadically looking through the Dev Diary on A18 and A19 i have one simple summary: First comes implementation of new ideas, rebalancing things and making it work. After all of that will come further polishing, minor bug fixes and minor/major code cleanup for various not so important topics.

At some point TFP introduced a reworked buff system, alongside a different skill tree, allowing a more complex relation between buffs and skills/perks. This was enhanced with book series, every book giving a slight bonus to something and a whole series completed giving a whole new "addon". All of that also was in pair with the changed weather system, yet we still wait for more books, some more balancing in skills, etc. THE BASIS IS THERE, WAS WORKED UPON, BUT WILL NEED MORE POLISH.

At some point TFP reworked how weapons and vehicles "work", allowing to broaden the amounts of both. This came in pair with mods for them, adding small bonuses for each. The basis is there for bringing new weapons and vehicles (even if only in modlets), as well as more mods, but we still wait for vehicle mods. THE BASIS IS THERE.

AI handling and performance has been worked upon to know how "intelligent" the enemies can be. This opened the gates for Bandits, yet we still await for them to appear. Zombie AI has been dumbed down, but we all know they could be changed back to being "smart". THE BASIS IS THERE.

Most of these things are not final, but there are more concepts and ideas than ever before. Just like building a house, you put in more foundation for future features and later on build upon them with ease.