More imersive weapons
- Thread starter GGPL
- Start date
Brian9824
Refugee
I'd disagree, I mean I don't care if i'm using a M16, M4, AK-47, AR-15, etc. They all do the same thing, Put a bullet thru an enemy. Having an M16 or an Ak-47 with slightly different stats in the game wouldn't change how i used the gun at all. It just adds bloat for no reason.no, they need NAMES... a rifle (same function as ak) with other name/model,a pistol with other name/model
they do not need new configurations of the same weapon
RavenGT
Refugee
I couldn't disagree with this more, honestly. Using this logic, there's no sense for anything if it already has a relative in game. Why flagstone if we already have cobblestone? Why have reinforced concrete when there's already concrete? After all, it's really just different stats and UI fluff.
Brian9824
Refugee
Simple, the building materials are vastly different tiers of quality. Just like a sniper rifle is a superior version of the hunting rifle and the shotgun is superior to the sawed off. They are also needed to create the POI's as each building needs different materials with different looks to simulate real life poi's as well as being the foundation to the game which is base building. They add a major gameplay element.
Now please explain how having the following changes gameplay at all.
AR15 - Range 10, Damage 101
M16- Range 11, Damage 95
AK- Range 9, Damage 105
M4 - Range 10, Damage 102
How would switching between those guns for instance change how you play the game in any way?
RavenGT
Refugee
You kinda answered your own question here. If looks are so important to game play, why aren't looks of the weaponry just as important? We have how many different clothing options, hair styles, etc., and honestly trivial differences between them. So why stop there? It's about variety and allowing players to add to their own play style by offering them more options. To give us craftable chairs and tables that do nothing other than provide a certain 'look'- I think it's safe to say that playing around with more weapons is only fair.
To offer vast generalizations (which in my experiences aren't true), make the AK more durable than an AR platform carbine, but perhaps slightly less controllable when firing in full auto (odd distinction here is that ARs don't have this capability and a true AK would. AK platform rifles available on the civilian market don't either, so you can see this distinction too). Make the 7.62x39 ammo (doesn't exist yet in-game) craftable from steel rather than brass components. There are many things you can use if you are worried about creating differences between items in-game that won't stray too far from reality.
"Why offer ANY variety in anything in-game if the difference is just looks or small stat differences?" is ignoring the fact that people like a personable game. They like collecting things, they like customization, and they like options. I'm sure some like you will disagree with the weapons part but will argue for multiple types of concrete all day long. I'd argue for both, all day long because the more things to do, to use, to collect, to find, etc. the better the game will be overall.
To offer vast generalizations (which in my experiences aren't true), make the AK more durable than an AR platform carbine, but perhaps slightly less controllable when firing in full auto (odd distinction here is that ARs don't have this capability and a true AK would. AK platform rifles available on the civilian market don't either, so you can see this distinction too). Make the 7.62x39 ammo (doesn't exist yet in-game) craftable from steel rather than brass components. There are many things you can use if you are worried about creating differences between items in-game that won't stray too far from reality.
"Why offer ANY variety in anything in-game if the difference is just looks or small stat differences?" is ignoring the fact that people like a personable game. They like collecting things, they like customization, and they like options. I'm sure some like you will disagree with the weapons part but will argue for multiple types of concrete all day long. I'd argue for both, all day long because the more things to do, to use, to collect, to find, etc. the better the game will be overall.
Dimpy
Refugee
When digging, most people would find the term "metal shovel" to be more descriptive than "Craftsman CM77712". I don't see why the situation would be that much more different for guns.
As for the aesthetic variety, I'd rather have the ability to paint weapons (which would not cost texture memory) or add pimp gun mods such as spinners(gyroscopic recoil compensation) or fuzzy dice.
As for the aesthetic variety, I'd rather have the ability to paint weapons (which would not cost texture memory) or add pimp gun mods such as spinners(gyroscopic recoil compensation) or fuzzy dice.
RavenGT
Refugee
I guess a good deal of us will have to rely on modders (or do the work ourselves) if we want to see honest investment into the firearms. If I remember correctly, part of the problem is that 7dtd is still supporting 32 bit rigs and runs into limitations there. At some point, you gotta cut the cord for legacy systems, but perhaps 7dtd isn't there as it seems like a lot of users are still plugging away on 32 bit systems.
The point is that weapons play a large role in the game but seems a little generic considering the game is a first-person builder/shooter at it's core. Oh well. *Sigh*
The point is that weapons play a large role in the game but seems a little generic considering the game is a first-person builder/shooter at it's core. Oh well. *Sigh*
Brian9824
Refugee
Again, what can you do with an M16 that you can't do with one of dozens of other assault rifles? How would having an AK-47 change your gameplay in any way versus an M16?
With the upcoming mods for weapons your generic assault rifle can behave like thousands of other guns by modifying it with the appropriate mods.
caatalyst
Refugee
I don't get this argument to delegitimise the request for more guns in the game?
I mean if you're going to compare two very different assault rifles like that then we could probably make the case for the blunt melee weapons. Why have a spiked club when we can just have an iron club? Why even bother having anything other than your fists? They do exactly the same as what every other weapon does right? .... :crushed:
Personally I’d like to see a few additional assault rifles and maybe an LMG and I’ll tell you why;
- Each additional gun will have it’s own statistics (fire rate / range / usable mods / damage). For some players it’s nice to have a weapon that suits your play style and guns could be diversified a bit more with the changes coming to guns in a17. In a game where one of the primary focuses is to kill stuff, the more ways we can do this the better.
- Some folks will just enjoy the different aesthetic / cosmetic that comes with different weapons
- More weapons = more loot in the world to find and this adds longevity to the game. Some of these new weapons could be made rare / end-game content and even become a player driven quest to get them.
- More weapons could compliment the new mod system coming. Maybe some scopes can only work with certain guns, same with silencers… maybe some guns can take less mods than others. There are so many options here to spice up combat, stealth and to personalise the experience for players.
The last point alone is enough reason for them to introduce new guns. That said, even if the pimps don’t I’m sure we will see them modded in so I’m not too worried.
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Brian9824
Refugee
Actually as its been said repeatedly more weapons just makes the loot list more bloated. Now instead of 6 ammo types we have 60 ammo types making it harder to find usable stuff. With the current mod system coming it actually completely replaces the need for more guns. The mods are whats rare, not the guns. Some are quest driven, some are boss drops, etc. Those let you tweak your gun making it into the exact gun you want.
The entire point is that we have limited memory and textures to work with. We have early/end game melee and ranged variants because they are needed and change how you play the game.
Going from a cheap wooden club to a spiked club lets you dominate in melee. Going from a hunting rifle to a sniper rifle is a massive upgrade.
Going from a ak-47 with a damage of 100 to an M16 with a damage of 101 does......nothing. Nothing except use up memory that could have been spent on a new zombie type, or a bandit model instead.
Oh you want your assault rifle to have a 3 round burst, mod it.
You want your rifle to fire faster - mod it.
You want your rifle to do more damage mod it.
I'm sure modders will do it, they can break the game for 32 bit users or remove other assets they don't care about to tweak it. TFP can't unfortunately.
caatalyst
Refugee
Loot tables are currently poorly executed and need balancing better for the current available weapons and pretty much everything else in the game but that's a whole new topic for a different thread. I don't see this as a deterrent for adding new weapons.
I can't speak much on the subject of the limitations of the game engine as I've no idea but I do know that modders have already added plenty of extra weapons without problems. Someone just recently released a big weapons mod pack you can find in the mods section.
I didn't mention the wood club, i mentioned the transition from iron to barbed which isn't that significant. They both are operated by the player virtually the same and offer similar damage outputs. It's no more drastic than two or three assault rifles providing similar statistics. Also, new weapons don't necessarily have to get more and more powerful. Every weapon can have it's own advantages and disadvantages, some of which i tried to point out in my first post.
As for debating over specific rifles and about why they should or shouldn't be added, i'm not really bothered for this either. We could go at it all day and to be fair on this topic it is just going to become subjective. All I can say here is plenty of other survival games have more than one assault rifle and multiple variations of ammo types and they work just fine. I can't see the negative in doing this other than what you've pointed out about the loot tables which can also be fixed.
As far as mods goes, this is a great step in the right direction and everything you've pointed out sounds great and I can't wait to do it.
I'm sure this thread could go on for a life time and still there would be haters on both sides. If they don't come with vanilla i'll look forward to see what comes out of the modding section
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RavenGT
Refugee
You keep dancing around understanding what I'm saying, and then forgetting it completely. Yes, MORE loot is a GOOD thing. MORE items, MORE weapons, MORE of everything is a GOOD thing for players like me who like customization, collecting, realism, and purposeful looting. That is exactly my point.
Why do we have different trees? They all give wood, right? I'm going back in circles here and in the end, it comes down to the limitations of the game's engine which hurts, seeing that it can't handle torches well (among other things) and is limiting what could be a major component of the game due to arguments "because we need another zombie type". All things equal, I'd rather a new zombie type less than a new weapon type, and you probably feel the opposite way. And that's fine - to each their own. Simply saying "mod it" is a boring excuse that could be used for half the stuff people ask for.
The request for more diverse weapons, from me, is no longer a request but a lamentation on what could make the game more enjoyable from my perspective. I use probably 1 melee weapon because the melee combat is clunky and disjoint, and because I'd rather use a firearm (which I can kept fed) rather than risking infection from a bite from a zombie halfway across the room. It is what it is, and I love the game despite the bugs.
Thank you Caatalyst for getting what I was saying. Yes, more is better.
Brian9824
Refugee
I'm being pretty darn direct. In your OPINION more loot is good. In reality having too many choices is detrimental and its been proven thru numerous studies that it negatively effects people.
Again i'm not sure why you keep making ridiculous comparisions like comparing trees and building to guns. The game has to look nice, the environment, the buildings, etc is a major aspect of the game. Whether your character is holding an Ak47 or a M16 is not a major part of the game, its 100% cosmetic.
You also keep dancing around the fact that the mods basically make the need for more weapons obsolete as there will be millions of combinations available.
Pille
Prefab Creator and Great Galactic Imperator
Imo I would wait for the experimental of A17 and for improved weapon physics before asking for new weapons because the true impact of the announced gun mod system is not clear to me and the current physics doesn't seems to be capable to represent more than the most basic weapon properties. Afaik things like velocity of projectiles, penetrating power and other stuff are not properly simulated.
Maybe, but does 'more loot' automatically imply that you have 'too many choices'? That's a highly questionable reasoning and I doubt that you can simply transfer the results of these (not specified) studies to the situation in 7dtd.
Afaik the Factorio devs have dropped the 32 bit support without refunding the game and one of the moderators told me that 32 bit support "likely won't be around for long unless A17 gets a fair amount of optimization", so I am not sure that they really cannot break it for 32 bit users... Do you have any references? (Not very important to me but I am curious...)
Let's assume you're correct and weapon variety is not a major part of the game (regardless of the vagueness of this term). And let us further assume that pushing this aspect can harm other more important (major) aspects (more important to whom?). Does this mean that we cannot discuss the suggestion without being constantly bothered? I would to love to follow an interesting discussion that is not hindered by these little 'again dances' where you repeat your opinion over and over and over and over again unable to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I bet everybody here understands your point of view and arguments but some continue to disagree with you because they have different preferences and opinions. It's just plain unconstructive to constantly repeat the same points. Sometimes there're no objectively correct opinion that has to be generally accepted.
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