Missing Tier 5s in RWG

[FragOMatic]

Version

2.5 experimental

Platform

Windows

Multiple tier 5 POIs never appear in RWG maps. (Or so rarely it might as well be never).
factory_01
factory_02
hospital_01

 

[Riamus]

Multiple tier 5 POIs never appear in RWG maps. (Or so rarely it might as well be never).
factory_01
factory_02
hospital_01

This is normal. Some POI, especially 100x100 POI, only appear on one single tile location. That means that if you don't have many of those tiles, you won't have much chance of getting those POI. A good example is one of those factories (2, I think) that appears only on an industrial cap tile, which is a pretty rare tile. TFP said that they are looking at ways to improve that, which likely will mean additional tiles, though may be some other changes. In the meantime, if you are on PC or using PC or server to host the game, you can use custom tiles that people have made that include spots for those POI so you have better chances to get those to appear.

 

[FragOMatic]

This is normal. Some POI, especially 100x100 POI, only appear on one single tile location. That means that if you don't have many of those tiles, you won't have much chance of getting those POI. A good example is one of those factories (2, I think) that appears only on an industrial cap tile, which is a pretty rare tile. TFP said that they are looking at ways to improve that, which likely will mean additional tiles, though may be some other changes. In the meantime, if you are on PC or using PC or server to host the game, you can use custom tiles that people have made that include spots for those POI so you have better chances to get those to appear.

Even if that explains why it happens, it doesn't mean it's desirable behavior. Whether it's a bug or not depends on whether or not they intend for those to be rare or non-existent because the conditions for them to appear are like winning the lottery.
If it's intended for those to only be in Navezgane and hand modified maps, then it's not a bug. On the other hand, if they want some of the premium Tier 5s to get used more frequently without having to mod, someone needs to look at what changed sometime around (after?) 2.0 and undo / fix / improve it because right now they don't work right.
Both of the 8k pregen maps include all three POIs. They also say they were generated with 2.0, not 2.5. Either they were hand placed or you couldn't duplicate that outcome with the current state of the RWG (and associated tiles/prefabs).

 

[zztong]

You're kind of bumping up against the design of RWG and the competing interest of other players who want more variety.

If you choose to make a map that is 4k, then there's a lot fewer ways for RWG to include everything. The larger you make the map the greater the chance you can see all of the content, but the less likely they will be unique.

You can get a map with everything, but it's a matter of probabilities resulting from your choices. Depending on how RWG is constrained it has to do something to cope. For your best chances, maximize the number of settlements and make as big a map as you can stand.

RWG already gives POIs priority placement based on their tier, so Tier 5s > 4s > 3s > 2s > 1s > 0s. But that doesn't help if there aren't enough of the right tiles. Unfortunately, RWG doesn't know which Tiles it needs to have a complete list of POIs because that's not a constant. If you add in custom POIs, it can't trace the POI back through the Tiles to know to modify the city definitions. It takes a human being to do that. And, that can mean some more content is needed -- a cycle.

 

[Riamus]

Even if that explains why it happens, it doesn't mean it's desirable behavior. Whether it's a bug or not depends on whether or not they intend for those to be rare or non-existent because the conditions for them to appear are like winning the lottery.
If it's intended for those to only be in Navezgane and hand modified maps, then it's not a bug. On the other hand, if they want some of the premium Tier 5s to get used more frequently without having to mod, someone needs to look at what changed sometime around (after?) 2.0 and undo / fix / improve it because right now they don't work right.
Both of the 8k pregen maps include all three POIs. They also say they were generated with 2.0, not 2.5. Either they were hand placed or you couldn't duplicate that outcome with the current state of the RWG (and associated tiles/prefabs).

It was an explanation of why it happens. I also pointed out that they want to improve it. As someone who does software development, I don't consider this to be a bug any more than not being able to get every POI on a 2k map would be a bug. The larger you make the map, the greater the chances of seeing those POI. It isn't that it's impossible to get those POI on a map, which would be a bug. It is perhaps a design flaw or an oversight, but I wouldn't consider it a bug. But if you want to call it a bug, that's fine. I didn't even say I didn't consider it a bug when I initially replied to you and instead just explained the situation, let you know that they want to improve that, and pointed out options to manage it in the meantime.

As far as pregen maps go, it is either luck (seed/map settings) that allowed them all to be there or they manually made some changes after generating the map so that certain POI would be there. There are RWG changes in 2.5, but I can tell you that you often didn't get all of those on a given map before 2.5. In fact, it was common to not get the factory on the industrial cap tile even in 1.0 and maybe before that (I forget when I first started noticing it). They've since added some additional POI that spawn on those limited spaces, which just makes it more noticeable.

In summary, it's a known thing and TFP is aware and TFP plans to improve it at some point. No one is saying it shouldn't be improved.

 

[Laran Mithras]

I've spun about 40 maps tonight. I am consistently getting seven Pop n Pills factories and 5 Mo Power factories.
7.1K maps. No variation. No deviation in results.

Something got messed up in the RWGmixer. coughcough. No, this is not normal and 2.4 did not produce these consistent results.

 

[Riamus]

I've spun about 40 maps tonight. I am consistently getting seven Pop n Pills factories and 5 Mo Power factories.
7.1K maps. No variation. No deviation in results.

Something got messed up in the RWGmixer. coughcough. No, this is not normal and 2.4 did not produce these consistent results.

If changes to seeds don't give different results, then it may have broke. Perhaps placing POI in a specific order every time (alphabetical or whatever). I don't do much with RWG, so I haven't tested to see if there are changes. But the explanation is the normal way you see things happen. There is normally variation based on seed. That could have changed, but even if it was changed and they change that back, it is still going to be difficult getting all of the POI that have limited placement locations. That mostly applies to the 100x100 POI that appear only in the industrial district because the only 100x100 marker in the industrial district is on the cap tile, which isn't used often. It is easy to see the issue. Make a map and open prefabs.xml and do a search for rwg_tile_industrial_cap and see how many are on the map. Then compare that number to the number of different 100x100 POI that only appear in the industrial district. It's easy to see the problem when doing so. Larger maps have more chance of having extra industrial cap tiles, so have a greater chance of getting more of those POI placed.

Anyhow, if placement isn't working at all with any seeds, then that would be a bug versus the standard issue where you often don't get certain POI but where you can manage to find different seeds where they can spawn. Someone can look into it to see if it's actually failing or you're just getting unlucky with seeds.

 

[Laran Mithras]

I know many might want variation - I wasn't aiming for variation. Was spinning maps with seed changes for a coop-stream. I don't particularly care if a map has repeats. What I do care about is that not a single map spun for 2.5 has been Shotgun Messiah or Shamway factory.
Since 2.5, I've spun well over 100 maps.
Not a single Factory_01 or Factory_02.
In 2.4, I would get differences going from GameV00 seed to GameV01 - and plenty of occasional Shotgun Messiahs or Shamway. Not now.

I have tried RWGmixer changes putting bias on Factory_01 and 02. Bias ranging from 1 to 120. Min and max of 1. Not a single insertion has produced a single Factory_01 or 02.

Attached picture. This has zero effect.

 

[Danny2beds]

I’ve been running in to this problem for some time and it’s a joke, I had 6 factory 3s. This needs to change, even if the games only generates one of each on every map especially on a 10k map, it’s extremely boring trying to find a map with fac 1or 2 which hurts coz I love this map

 

[zztong]

Bias won't help. Those have plenty of bias already. It's probably RWG's Tile selection, but taking a look:

factory_01 is 100x100 tagged industrial
factory_02 is 100x100 tagged industrial

This gave me a reason to use Claude Code and find all of their competition, instead of doing a bunch of greps myself:
Claude said, here are the XML files that meet both criteria (Tags containing "industrial" AND PrefabSize with x=100 and z=100):

1. factory_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 55, 100
2. factory_02.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 78, 100
3. remnant_lot_industrial_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 21, 100
4. utility_refinery_02.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 33, 100
5. warehouse_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 20, 100

These 5 POI files have the "industrial" tag and are exactly 100 blocks wide (x) and 100 blocks deep (z), with varying heights .

And I looked up the Tier for each because that will influence their default bias:

factory_01 is Tier 5
factory_02 is Tier 5
remnant_lot_industrial_01 is Tier 0
utility_refinery_02 is Tier 3
warehouse_01 is Tier 4

So the game should want to place the two factories first, then the warehouse, then the utility_refinery, and finally the remnant, assuming it has 5 100x100 industrial POI Markers on the map.

I'd be curious to know how many of each of those 5 POIs you get on a sample map.

Next I want to see what industrial tiles support a 100x100 POI. Again, I turned to Claude Code to do the greping for me.

rwg_tile_industrial_cap.xml:

• 100, 0, 100
• 25, 0, 25

rwg_tile_industrial_corner.xml:

• 42, 0, 42
• 25, 0, 25
• 25, 0, 25
• 42, 0, 42
• 42, 0, 42

rwg_tile_industrial_t.xml:

• 42, 0, 42
• 42, 0, 42
• 60, 0, 60
• 60, 0, 60

rwg_tile_industrial_straight.xml:

• 42, 0, 42
• 42, 0, 42
• 25, 0, 25
• 42, 0, 42
• 42, 0, 42
• 25, 0, 25
• 25, 0, 25

rwg_tile_industrial_intersection.xml:

• 60, 0, 60
• 42, 0, 42
• 42, 0, 42
• 42, 0, 42

So, only the Industrial Cap tile can support those POIs.

The next question is how many of rwg_tile_industrial_cap Tiles got placed on your map.

I'm wondering if that number will be zero. If so, I'll bet it probably relates to how the cities are being built. If the industrial district is internal to the city I'll bet RWG is reluctant to use a Cap because it makes a dead end.

I looked at the map for my current playthrough:

<decoration type="model" name="factory_01" position="-3034,49,865" rotation="2" />
<decoration type="model" name="factory_02" position="-3158,44,1043" rotation="0" />

None of: remnant_lot_industrial_01, utility_refinery_02, warehouse_01.

None of: rwg_tile_industrial_cap

So I'm getting those factory POIs because my modlet adds more industrial tiles with support for 100x100 POIs. I'll bet I got two of those tiles on my map.

 

[Laran Mithras]

I've tried to avoid RWG mods, but at this point, I'm looking yours up, @zztong

 

[zztong]

I've tried to avoid RWG mods, but at this point, I'm looking yours up, @zztong

I don't really modify the RWG config much, beyond what it takes to support a bunch of custom tiles. I want to leave all of the various world shaping RWG choices to the player. I don't mess with bias, settlement placement or size, or any of that.

My goal was to add variety to the world, so lots of POIs and the Tiles to support them.

 

[Laran Mithras]

factory_01 is Tier 5
factory_02 is Tier 5
remnant_lot_industrial_01 is Tier 0
utility_refinery_02 is Tier 3
warehouse_01 is Tier 4

So the game should want to place the two factories first, then the warehouse, then the utility_refinery, and finally the remnant, assuming it has 5 100x100 industrial POI Markers on the map.

I'd be curious to know how many of each of those 5 POIs you get on a sample map.



The next question is how many of rwg_tile_industrial_cap Tiles got placed on your map.

Vanilla (NO MODS or alterations) RWG for 7.1K, many towns, many wilderness POIs, 91% flat, no change to biome %s. Results:

Factory_01: 0
Factory_02: 0
remnant_lot_industrial_01: 0
utility_refinery_02: 0
warehouse_01: 0

Consistent.

 

[zztong]

Vanilla (NO MODS or alterations) RWG for 7.1K, many towns, many wilderness POIs, 91% flat, no change to biome %s. Results:

The your map must not have gotten an rwg_tile_industrial_cap Tile anywhere on your map as it would have had to fill it with one of those POIs.

Back to if this is a bug or not, I would consider it one. TFP created content that is not being used by RWG's city generation. TFP may argue about how best to address it, but if the Cap tile is never going to get used then the POI team will want to make other plans. Given that RWG has been a work in progress for years, I wouldn't be surprised if they called it a "known issue" and didn't immediately have a plan.

I wonder if it can be solved with a bigger industrial district, giving RWG more options, but a bigger could mean they need more industrial POIs.

I wonder if the industrial district has density-related performance issues, specially since it can end up next to the commercial and downtown districts. If so, maybe finding a way to move it to outside the "rural" ring would be viable, or perhaps a different kind of settlement like an industrial park.

But yeh, as a bug report goes, it isn't so much an error was an undesired outcome and still worthy of note.

 

[Laran Mithras]

After thinking about where to find it over breakfast, I checked the Prefabs.xml for "rwg_tile_industrial_cap"

No results. Plenty of rwg_tile_industrials, but not caps.
Thank you, ZZTONG, for helping me see through the RWG. I hope this gets addressed.
Eventually.

 

[zztong]

After thinking about where to find it over breakfast, I checked the Prefabs.xml for "rwg_tile_industrial_cap"

Yes, that's the best place to look for info about a generated world.

I'm kind of bummed, actually. There's 5 of those POIs and even with my config I'll only probably see 2-3 of the 5. While I wouldn't put any of this config into my POI modlet, I do have other modlets to customize things to my taste. I'm tempted to make an industrial park settlement and mess with the number of tiles it gets. These days the settlements start with an intersection, so if I say the entire settlement is only the industrial district and the settlement has 4 tiles, then maybe I'll get an intersection and 3 caps. If I keep it out of the desert, snow, and wasteland biomes, then it would probably keep the POI repeat distance from creating blanks. Maybe its a good settlement for burnt forest.

 

[Riamus]

After thinking about where to find it over breakfast, I checked the Prefabs.xml for "rwg_tile_industrial_cap"

No results. Plenty of rwg_tile_industrials, but not caps.
Thank you, ZZTONG, for helping me see through the RWG. I hope this gets addressed.
Eventually.

If you don't want to use mods, but are willing to do a small change yourself and aren't too concerned about those 5 POI being in the industrial district, you could consider making a copy of each of those POI and placing the copies in your LocalPrefabs folder. Make sure you get all files for each of them. Then edit the XML file for each and change the Tags to include another district beyond just industrial. You'd need to pick a district that has 100x100 markers on them. If you don't want to find out which those are, you could add all districts to save time. That single change to those will let them spawn in other districts, increasing the chances of those being placed even if you never see an industrial cap tile.

So, for example, instead of:

<property name="Tags" value="industrial" />

You can make it something like:

<property name="Tags" value="industrial,downtown,commercial" />

Just use whatever districts you want to include, separated by commas. And make sure you're editing the tags line.

It's not a fix of the problem, but it gets you the POI in the meantime without needing any custom POI or tiles. Note that this does lower the number of other 100x100 POI in those districts because your industrial ones will take up some of those spots, but you should get more variety.

Maybe @Laz Man can take a look at it and see if there is something they can do to at least get these to appear normally.

 

[zztong]

Some observations from experimentation:

RWG doesn't appear to want to use CAP tiles in general, other than in the rural district and rarely in a countrytown district. There could potentially be other orphaned POIs, but I'd have to really dig into what is on the CAP tiles in other districts.

Industrial Park with 4 Tiles: 1 Intersection and 3 Straight
Industrial Park with 2 Tiles and an Industrial Wrapping District: Intersections and Straights
Industrial Park with 1 Tile and an Industrial Wrapping District: Intersection and Straights

Conclusions:

Either RWG is abandoning CAP tiles or it is a work in progress. If they're abandoning them, some communication would be nice as I've got a bunch of CAP tiles in my modlet that I'd want to migrate to other patterns.

There's a window of opportunity here for Teragon.

 

[zztong]

Looking at my (perhaps out of date) notes about Tiles:

Commercial CAP is the only Tile for 100x100 Commercial POIs.

These POIs appear to be orphaned right now too:

1. apartments_06.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 82, 100
2. store_hardware_03.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 26, 100
3. hotel_02.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 36, 100
4. remnant_hotel_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 25, 100
5. remnant_commercial_large_02.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 21, 100
6. store_grocery_02.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 22, 100
7. hotel_03.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 35, 100
8. hospital_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 64, 100
9. remnant_sports_center_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 22, 100
10. nursing_home_01.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 28, 100
11. football_stadium.xml - PrefabSize: 100, 42, 100

Claude Code made that list and I only hand-checked the first 4 to be sure.

My modlet doesn't make an alternative location for 100x100 commercial POIs and there are none of those POIs in my current game world.

 

[zztong]

Industrial seems to only use T and Intersection.
Commercial seems to only use T and Intersection.
Downtown seems to only use T and Intersection.
Residential seems to only use T and Intersection.
CountryTown didn't use Caps.

There's a lot of missing Tile content and perhaps more orphaned POIs.