PC Make Crafted Items better than Looted

[meganoth]

Don't give me that BS.  People will want to explore and loot anyway. Besides you have to loot for crafting now anyway.  If they don't that's fine.  Crafting is and has been a huge part of this game and you already have to go loot to do most crafting as it currently sits, and in no way is that part better than just some RNG crap that has been implemented. I just feel the perk system, crafting system, loot system should be on the same page and they are not, not even close.

I call double-BS to your BS .

Crafting is a central part of the game, just look how much everyone is looking to get working workstations as soon as possible. But crafting is also a very straightforward endevour: If you want something and have the schematic (which isn't that had to find) it is just a very forseeable matter of time before you can craft it.

You need weapon parts? TFP can't make weapon parts really scarce because they want people to find weapons and weapon parts regularily (in weapon chests, safes...) to craft weapons up to quality 5. So this just becomes a matter of weapon chest grinding. But the best weapons should be something special, something where you can't plan ahead and say: Ok, I need 5 days of grinding and then I have the weapon in 99% of cases.

I would be ok with it if crafting the quality6 would need >10 times as much in parts as a quality 5. So that your chance to craft it in normal play is at a player level far above100. Anything less and it is just to easy to craft it.

By the way, I'm still waiting very much for legendary weapons to enter the game (for me much more important than the bandits). Ever seen a movie where the hero himself crafts the legendary weapon? Sorry, that seems wrong to me (I acknowledge this last bit is more about a feeling than really an argument)

And in closing: I would like item degradation, preferably just quality going down (often making one mod slot disabled, but  you can still remove the mod)

Just think how interesting slow degradation mods would suddenly become. At the moment their only use is to fill a mod slot.

 

[FileMachete]

Imo Crafting should be at _least_ on par with loot/trader, for all the reasons mentioned. Plus a biggie for me, I do not like the trader system. Nor do I ever want to be dependent on it.

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I'd be ok with item degradation with a couple caveats;

1) Empyrion did at first, (not sure if still like this) allow only a few repairs for their top tier, loot only weapons, Caused enough angry feedback that they changed it so top tier was player craftable if they had the skill and a special part.

-- so I'd say no to degradation if top tier only came from loot or trader rewards.

2) Some items would need a -serious- increase in durability. I've easily gone through a Steel Pickaxes full durability several times in a single mining session.

3) Instead of each repair lowering durability, simply have a max number of repairs. Reason being, that last "health" would be awfully small on some items, especially lower Tier ones.

 

[Nexian]

You need weapon parts? TFP can't make weapon parts really scarce because they want people to find weapons and weapon parts regularily (in weapon chests, safes...) to craft weapons up to quality 5. So this just becomes a matter of weapon chest grinding. But the best weapons should be something special, something where you can't plan ahead and say: Ok, I need 5 days of grinding and then I have the weapon in 99% of cases.

  Just mentioning, the system above would let players find lots of weapon parts as the game progresses, and every single find for those parts would be useful to the player. I would say my suggestion would be more reliable in that you'd eventually get there, but it has the same level of special finds. Imagine you've finally, after 100 days, looted enough parts to have 2 Quality 9 parts, just one part away from being able to make a Quality 10 part for your weapon, but the expected goal is still about 50 days away.. but you open a chest, and bam, it contains a Quality 9 part of that type, random chance just saved you 50 days of looting lesser parts.

I would be ok with it if crafting the quality6 would need >10 times as much in parts as a quality 5. So that your chance to craft it in normal play is at a player level far above100. Anything less and it is just to easy to craft it.

Just to point out, a Quality 10 in the system above would need the equivalent parts of 253 Quality 5 weapons. Something that would take a long time depending on loot balancing.

By the way, I'm still waiting very much for legendary weapons to enter the game (for me much more important than the bandits). Ever seen a movie where the hero himself crafts the legendary weapon? Sorry, that seems wrong to me (I acknowledge this last bit is more about a feeling than really an argument)

This depends on whether the legendary weapon is the same type of weapon or not. If it's a unique weapon, then it's simply not crafted... but maybe limited in quality.

If it's a legendary version of a crafted weapon, then make the final craft a perquisite. i.e. in my system you can craft up to Quality 10, it takes a lot of effort. But, once you've crafted that quality 10, you (or people in your party) now have a chance to find the legendary version.

Although, my ideal would be the legendary for an already craftable weapon would instead be a legendary mod specific to that weapon.

 

[Kalen]

I would be ok with it if crafting the quality6 would need >10 times as much in parts as a quality 5. So that your chance to craft it in normal play is at a player level far above100. Anything less and it is just to easy to craft it.

Except by the time you're level 100, you've found just about every weapon at quality 6 anyway.   I'm at 65 and have most weapons and tools at quality 6.   Personal preference, but I find it much more rewarding to perk up a skill, find the necessary components and craft the gear I'm going to use than to find better gear in a pile of trash.

 

[Laz Man]

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

To add to this idea, lower quality items should have lower durability to start with.

Example Only:

Grey - 20 uses (Unrepairable, melee), 40 uses (Unrepairable, ranged)

Orange - 40 uses (melee), 80 uses (ranged)

Yellow - 60 uses (melee), 120 uses (ranged)

Green - 80 uses (melee), 160 uses (ranged)

Blue - 100 uses (melee), 200 uses (ranged)

Purple - 120 uses (melee), 240 uses (ranged)

 

[katarynna]

One big problem with your idea is inventory space. They would need to triple it if each weapon type had 10 different quality parts.

I'm not sure that is realistic. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do it.

It seems odd to me to max out a skill, but then need to simply find the best item anyway. But I also like the idea that you can find good items.

So, I was thinking, what if:

1. Item level went to 10, instead of 6. (bear with me)

2. Items only require one part, but parts have quality levels

3. 3 item parts can be crafted into a part of a higher tier

4. The crafting skills can increase the chance of finding higher tier items of their type

5. You can only find items of up to level 9 in the game world

6. [Edit] Crafting skill increase the range of random stats a crafted item can have

So, to get a Tier 10 handgun, you'd need one Tier 10 Handgun part as part of the recipe. How many total lesser parts would it need?

T9 parts: 3

T8 parts: 9

T7 parts: 27

T6 parts: 81

T5 parts: 243

T4 parts: 729

T3 parts: 2,187

T2 parts: 6,561

T1 parts: 19,683

What this does:

1. It allows more part drops and more gun drops without easily getting the final Tier of a weapon, tool or armor

2. We can limit the maximum tier of items dropped without making them feel like bad drops, as they build towards crafting the best items

3. It gives a longer progression track for each item to give longer-term goals to aim for

4. You, the player, craft your final item, building up and finding the parts over time instead of simply getting very lucky and finding it in one quick instant.

You can only find T9 of any item as loot in the world. But, a T9 is still an amazing find, as you only need to find 3 T9 Weapons or parts to craft a Tier 10.

In reality a T9 would be incredibly rare, with T6 being a more common end-game "good loot". But, all the items are still valuable as they all work towards making the best Tier.

This system would just make all drops valuable for items, but you'd still be extremely happy to find that extra rare drop, without it having to be your final item. 

Oh, also I'd say the tool/weapon/etc [Edit]would give the part back when scrapped, just none of the other materials would give back parts of a lower tier when scrapped (but not quite enough to make the higher tier part). This means you wouldn't feel like you're stunting your progression as much by crafting an item of lower than the maximum tier. This also means you can't easily re-craft items to try for better stats, needing to find more parts to try again.

As for combining parts I'd say the workbench could have an area similar to the forge for smelting, but it instead slowly "smelts" a stack of parts, turning 3 into 1 better part in the output.

And as an extra, for armor, we could adjust the combine cost and required parts.

e.g. If armor pieces each needed 8 parts of the same quality to make, but armor parts only needed to combine 2 to make a higher tier instead of 3, then a full tier 10 set of armor would need 20,480 tier 1 parts, very similar to the amount a single weapon or tool would need.

 

[HungryZombie]

I hate games with item degradation. Makes finding good items pointless for me and takes the fun out of finding a good item.

 

[mr.devolver]

I hate games with item degradation. Makes finding good items pointless for me and takes the fun out of finding a good item.

Would you still feel motivated to look for better items if your current item didn't degrade as you use it? What you really want is a better balance between loot, crafted items and degradation, but that doesn't mean degradation is a bad thing at all. I don't know if you ever played Dead Island games, but they were a perfect example of a good balance in all those factors and more, because you always felt motivated to look for better stuff and you also always felt motivated to improve the weapons that you found with various things that could only be crafted after finding or purchasing the schematics. So there was a constant need to find materials for crafting, stronger weapons you could improve, because the enemies were also tougher as you got farther in the game. So yeah, good loot balance as well as degradation are actually important, but there are many more factors they need to balance and each of them must be balanced with the other factors in mind.

 

[Jeraal]

What about degradation for field repairs? Field repairs could be done with standard repair kits, but always lowers durability or quality. This reduction would become the new maximum for that item, never to be raised to original level. Introduce weapon/tool repair kits that can only be used at a workbench and takes 5 minutes or more to complete, but has no degradation(or a slim chance). The kits would need weapon or tool parts as well as things like oil, steel and mechanical parts. This would mimic hurried repairs where you might drop a part and not clean it properly before reassembly or slightly bending a trigger group spring, versus meticulous care at home. Then we could craft the best stuff and have a chance of losing it.

 

[lord_ahriman]

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

Not a bad idea, but with "degradation" in, "random stat" must be out and T6 is back on crafting system or it would be an unfair system. I'm telling that because in my last save 18.4 I have found a lot of T6 M60, but really high damage, not many. 

 

[Maladon]

Three things to add...

1 - I can't support anything that increases inventory management. All those different levels of parts would be incredibly ponderous to deal with.

2- I think we should be able to craft tier 6 items.

3 - I support item degradation but I don't support stats being tied to the durability level of the item. You should get full stats until you break it then you have to find or make a new one.

 

[HungryZombie]

Would you still feel motivated to look for better items if your current item didn't degrade as you use it? What you really want is a better balance between loot, crafted items and degradation, but that doesn't mean degradation is a bad thing at all. I don't know if you ever played Dead Island games, but they were a perfect example of a good balance in all those factors and more, because you always felt motivated to look for better stuff and you also always felt motivated to improve the weapons that you found with various things that could only be crafted after finding or purchasing the schematics. So there was a constant need to find materials for crafting, stronger weapons you could improve, because the enemies were also tougher as you got farther in the game. So yeah, good loot balance as well as degradation are actually important, but there are many more factors they need to balance and each of them must be balanced with the other factors in mind.

I don't have a need/desire to keep finding better weapons. Once I have a great item I'm happy. I don't want that great item to break and become a crappy item after repairing it. 

I did love Dead Island. I don't recall the items degrading after you repaired them but it's been years since I've played. I don't really remember having to craft anything to beat that game over several playthroughs. I think I just used what I found, it was a pretty easy game. I just curb stomped everything.

 

[Scyris]

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

I agree with the first suggestion, but a hard no to the second, a16 and I think 17 had tool.weapon effectiveness drop based on remaining durability and most people hated it. I would like, kinda like what dying light has, no durability loss etc, but a item only has a limited number of repairs before it'll be "destroyed" which only use them is to scrap it. Most items in dying light can take 3-4 repairs on average before its derstroyed for good, there is also a perk that gives a 20% chance to not use up a repair when repairing it, this part could come from that weapon/tools perk, like for mining tools, it'd be miner 69'er that has a chance per perk level to not use up a repair slot.

 

[Roland]

I'd be fine with no loss of stats. Mainly I think we need to have items break after a number of repairs so that the player has to find or craft a replacement. I think the broken item should still be scrappable for parts as that will help facilitate crafting that replacement.

 

[Synvastian]

Weapons degrade 10% per repair (that still a lot of usage) when its 0% (broken state) it scraps for parts (the RP reasoning is you stripped only the working bits and tossed the broken down ones)

{you would always find a weapon with 100% Condition, durability can be as low as like 1-2shots before a repair is needed, but always 100% condition, so 10 repairs before it's broken status}

random stats stay

Crafting would need access to t6

it would be like this:

Perfect Blunderbuss (100-81 condition)

Great Blunderbuss (80-61 condition)

Blunderbuss (60-41 condition)

Weathered Blunderbuss (40-21 condition)

Deteriorated Blunderbuss ( 20-1 condition)

Broken Blunderbuss (0 condition)

(Condition names are optional, but we should be able to check the Condition at a glance, whether that's a Percentage or a title/word.)

just my 2 cents, and I would love this system, would be an adjustment for sure.

 

[Nexian]

My current game is also an example of why a longer-term quality system with the majority of loot being useful is good.

We're only on day 21, but we already have... everything. Power, all crafting stations, crucible, 4x4, the best armor/weapons (available at this gamestage), fully upgraded base walls that zombies just can't get into. 

We specifically didn't take any intelligence skills just so we had to find everything, but it was not a long process. We still have some Quality 6 stuff to find, but that's about it, and again, this is mostly a gamestage issue.

Suddenly all looting is just a bit pointless. We'll incidentally find Quality 6 items as we go, but it's not exactly a determined search. We'll just mostly be looting for brass. But it feels like we're done unless we wait ages for the GS to catch up with us, and even then, no more need to looting, we're just waiting for the challenge to come back.

FYI, we never left the town we found the trader in. Found everything in that one spot.

 

[Sydious]

I call double-BS to your BS .

Crafting is a central part of the game, just look how much everyone is looking to get working workstations as soon as possible. But crafting is also a very straightforward endevour: If you want something and have the schematic (which isn't that had to find) it is just a very forseeable matter of time before you can craft it.

I will triple stamp your double stamp with two "easy" questions then...

Can you play through the game without ever crafting?

Can you play through the game without ever looting?

If the answer is not the same for both questions then it is not equal.

Hell, I'll even toss in a third question.

Can you craft without looting?

 

[lord_ahriman]

I will triple stamp your double stamp with two "easy" questions then...

Can you play through the game without ever crafting?

Can you play through the game without ever looting?

If the answer is not the same for both questions then it is not equal.

Hell, I'll even toss in a third question.

Can you craft without looting?

You can craft without looting, but you will need traders on rotation so you can sell basic "mining" materials like stone, lead etc to get what you need.

 

[Novamourne]

Looting is the best way to go because it ties the reward to the higher risk. All the weapons in the game can be crafted with parts and materials that you get from the least challenging forms of content. If they were to make crafting yield the best items, they'd have to integrate materials that were obtained through challenging content.

 

[meganoth]

I'd be fine with no loss of stats. Mainly I think we need to have items break after a number of repairs so that the player has to find or craft a replacement. I think the broken item should still be scrappable for parts as that will help facilitate crafting that replacement.

I could live with that, but only if the item showed up as red if its number of repairs is used up. Having to look up the number of repairs for every item in use before going out would really be senseless micromanagement