PC Main skills only impacting specific weapons is backwards

[Liesel Weppen]

So how does the Exploration/Ranged sniper live through horde night or how does he build a base? How does the miner or crafter combat zombies?

The miner/crafter survives by putting dozens of rows of spikes around his base.

The sniper builds a kill corridor (out of wood, he can't build anything else) and kills 5 Zs with one shot by using the penetration skill.

As mentioned above, with focus on singleplayer the current system is even worse imho. The agility build seems to be favored, but do you really play agility without any skills in intelligence? Can you even craft anything then? Build a base? Do they completely rely on finding the needed books in time?

I actually like dex314 idea: Add small non-combat benefits to attributes.

I already postet this on page one of this thread. Not even mentioning i posted that weeks earlier in other threads.

I already told it a dozen of times here. I'm not complaining about needing fortitude 8 to skill lotl 4. BUT fortitude itself should then give a generic effect like 2% more HP per level or +5% armor points per level, or whatever but not to specific items which make the skill completely useless if you don't use that specific item. Buffs for specific items should be limited to perks which are no prerequisit for other skills.

If you want to skill shotguns, fine, then skill the perks, they might need strength, but don't buff only shotguns by stength itself.

 

[meganoth]

The miner/crafter survives by putting dozens of rows of spikes around his base. The sniper builds a kill corridor (out of wood, he can't build anything else) and kills 5 Zs with one shot by using the penetration skill.

I assume the smilies are intended and I don't need to really reply to this. :fat:

As mentioned above, with focus on singleplayer the current system is even worse imho. The agility build seems to be favored, but do you really play agility without any skills in intelligence? Can you even craft anything then? Build a base? Do they completely rely on finding the needed books in time?

I already postet this on page one of this thread. Not even mentioning i posted that weeks earlier in other threads.

To remove any confusion who had the idea first I now declare that idea to be Meganoth's Totally Cool Idea :fat:

I don't see how you can **comfortably** play single-player without putting some points elsewhere, neither in vanilla nor BobTheBards system. The system allows you to get perks in other attribute trees without any problems, why not use it?

I play single player agility by the way, and have no points in any craft skill. I have almost all schematics I need, including the steel schematic. The notable exceptions are all electricity based traps and first aid bandage + med kit. I'm still looking for them, but meanwhile I bought two blade traps from the trader and my last horde night was almost boring.

In Bob's system I would have probably played exploration/ranged. But would I have put a point into living of the land to get a farm going? Absolutely. Would I have put points into mother lode to get some more out of mining resources? Absolutely. I would also have specced quite a bit into melee because otherwise my ammo bill would have been horrendous. So where could I have saved perk points?

 

[jdm311]

I'm not a fan of this attribute system either. The focus is all on combat, but I like to spend perk points on non-combat perks like lucky looter, salvage operations, daring adventurer, better barter, sexy rex, miner 69, mother lode, healing, stealth, etc. To me, A16.4 progression was perfect. As it is now, I resort to giving myself 2 points per level (tried 3 and progression was way too fast) and lower the xp level modifier a bit to give me the flexibility I need to play how I want. We'll see if reducing max levels of non-combat perks helps in A19.

 

[The Gronk]

As mentioned above, with focus on singleplayer the current system is even worse imho. The agility build seems to be favored, but do you really play agility without any skills in intelligence? Can you even craft anything then? Build a base? Do they completely rely on finding the needed books in time?

It would be harder without traders but high tier building materials are (far too) abundant in POI's while decent equipment and weapons can be quite easily scavenged from the loot piles at the end of dungeon crawls. As for workbenches and such, setting up near a decent sized settlement will pretty much guarantee access to a forge, workbench and cement mixer.

The only real problem with this approach is that you spend so much time looting and travelling that you can struggle to have the time to build a fort.

 

[BobTheBard]

In Bob's system I would have probably played exploration/ranged. But would I have put a point into living of the land to get a farm going? Absolutely. Would I have put points into mother lode to get some more out of mining resources? Absolutely. I would also have specced quite a bit into melee because otherwise my ammo bill would have been horrendous. So where could I have saved perk points?

Ah, right, I forgot to specify clearly. With my idea the categories would themselves have bonuses that apply to all characters, not just serve as skill gates to unlock perks.

Exploration would serve the same purpose as Lucky Looter does now, each point giving a bonus to find more and better stuff when you loot. Everybody loots something eventually unless you're specifically trying not to, so this is always going to be useful.

Harvesting would give block damage. Perks in the tree would give even more block damage when mining/chopping (Miner 69er) but points into Harvesting alone would help with, say, breaking doors or forcing safes open, something virtually everyone has to do at some point.

Melee Combat and Ranged Combat give bonuses to all melee and all ranged damage, respectively. Something most people are going to encounter at some point. Specialized perks that make individual weapons better (and possibly deal even more damage) would be included in the tree.

Crafting would increase crafting speed. Again, everybody crafts something sometime.

So would you save points? Perhaps not. But would those points be helping you more than they do now? Absolutely. Imagine sinking 3 points into Harvesting to grab Mother Lode 2 and getting, say, +15% block damage (which helps you harvest) instead of a damage bonus to sledgehammers, clubs, and shotguns. The bonus to block damage will come in handy at some point, such as when you need to gather some resources (which is why you got the perk!) or break a door, while the sledgehammer and shotgun bonus is almost never going to help you since you, being a stealthy person, probably don't use them. The club bonus might be useful if only because clubs are the most commonly-used melee weapon in the game, but it won't help you one whit if you want to use a spear, knife, fists, or other weapon.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

NO, NO, NO, just NO, have i already said NOOOO?All that just because "lotl"? Why should a farmer not use shotguns or whatever?

Here's what will really bake your noodle. In this world, before the zombie apocalypse... the farmer sitting on his porch with a shotgun has been replaced with a farmer sitting on his front porch with an M60. Because that's how he had to spend his skill points.

 

[meganoth]

Ah, right, I forgot to specify clearly. With my idea the categories would themselves have bonuses that apply to all characters, not just serve as skill gates to unlock perks.
Exploration would serve the same purpose as Lucky Looter does now, each point giving a bonus to find more and better stuff when you loot. Everybody loots something eventually unless you're specifically trying not to, so this is always going to be useful.

Harvesting would give block damage. Perks in the tree would give even more block damage when mining/chopping (Miner 69er) but points into Harvesting alone would help with, say, breaking doors or forcing safes open, something virtually everyone has to do at some point.

Melee Combat and Ranged Combat give bonuses to all melee and all ranged damage, respectively. Something most people are going to encounter at some point. Specialized perks that make individual weapons better (and possibly deal even more damage) would be included in the tree.

Crafting would increase crafting speed. Again, everybody crafts something sometime.

So would you save points? Perhaps not. But would those points be helping you more than they do now? Absolutely. Imagine sinking 3 points into Harvesting to grab Mother Lode 2 and getting, say, +15% block damage (which helps you harvest) instead of a damage bonus to sledgehammers, clubs, and shotguns. The bonus to block damage will come in handy at some point, such as when you need to gather some resources (which is why you got the perk!) or break a door, while the sledgehammer and shotgun bonus is almost never going to help you since you, being a stealthy person, probably don't use them. The club bonus might be useful if only because clubs are the most commonly-used melee weapon in the game, but it won't help you one whit if you want to use a spear, knife, fists, or other weapon.

With respect to categories/attributes giving some bonus you are preaching to the choir. So just lets assume both TFP's and your version has that feature included.

And then I still see the same advantages and disadvantages or problems in your version. Since in your system you still need to skill in ALL categories more or less you also need to give out more perk points per level-up. But this then means a player can reach gates faster if he specializes more, especially in multiplayer. And presto we are back at the situation in previous alphas where sensible gates that should slow you down fall all too easily in MP. But also can't be pushed further back because then a single player would be handicapped too long.

Apart from that your system allows people to choose their weapons and other perks freely. Essentially categories loose their function and really could be removed and the points distributed into the perks again. This might sound like an advantage for everyone, and it is probably for players who want to and can endure playing the same schtick every time. But it never pushes anyone to change their game once in a while and eventually hurt its replayability for many players.

 

[seagas]

NO, NO, NO, just NO, have i already said NOOOO?
Of couse you choose. You decide you want to be able to do farming and therefore want to skill "Living of the land". Because you WANT to have "lotl" you need to skill fortitude. But with that decision come two options:

1. you are "forced" to use machine guns and/or knuckles if you want to take advantage of the skillpoints put into fortiude

2. the points put in fortitude are completely wasted because you don't use machine guns or knuckles

All that just because "lotl"? Why should a farmer not use shotguns or whatever?

You want to build an undergroundbase and therefore skill miner 69er? There you go, you are forced to shotguns and sledgehammers because of strength or need to invest in for yourself useless skillpoints.

You want to use a shotgun but for melee prefer blades? You're welcome, you need to invest twice as many skillpoints to get both weapons good in opposite of using shotguns + sledgehammer or pistols + blades.

So in the end the only thing you choose is "do i play like the skillsystem tells me to do but efficient" or "do i play like I WANT, but waste a lot of skillpoints for being able to do so".

WTF!

Excellent post, the arbitrary weapon types scattered around the major attributes is my personal worst change to A18. Please let the player choose their weapon preference independently of the main attributes.

 

[HungryZombie]

As mentioned above, with focus on singleplayer the current system is even worse imho. The agility build seems to be favored, but do you really play agility without any skills in intelligence? Can you even craft anything then? Build a base? Do they completely rely on finding the needed books in time?

I would submit the Agility player uses parkour to leap around various high vantage points and rain down a hail of steel, explosive and flaming arrows on the horde. Once too many zombies stack up in one spot he leaps to another high points and repeats.

I find this whole debate fascinating as from my perspective people are so hung up on what things are named.

If they changed the Intelligence tree's name from Intelligence to just calling it "Steve" and marketing the tree as "Steve is the clever, charming dude. He can negotiate the best prices from the trader for all the parts he needs to build is very own traps and turrets. Steve is not the type to charge in all guns blazing or hammer smashing but he's got a nice stun baton ready in case the zombies get in his face...."

Kinda like how in Dead Island you either play the big guy with the hammer or the quick guy who throws knives. I haven't seen people playing dead island complain that they want the big guys curb stomp ability but still want to the knives bonus from the quick guy as well. They just play as the character archtype they pick.

I mean TFP's could do nothing else other than change the attribute trees to character types and it seems like it would stomp on most of the issues people are having.

 

[Ghostlight]

I want to be Steve so I can have Steel and fly a Gyro-copter asap.

But I want to use Machine Guns.

See?

 

[Roland]

I want to be Steve so I can have Steel and fly a Gyro-copter asap.
But I want to use Machine Guns.

See?

Because you can’t? I’m pretty sure there’s nothing stopping me from using Machine Guns no matter what else I decide to do.

 

[DeadGerry]

I mean TFP's could do nothing else other than change the attribute trees to character types and it seems like it would stomp on most of the issues people are having.

I really don't mean to belittle anyone's opinions; but no matter how I try to look at this the problem is that the most common complaint boils down to 'I want to be able to max perk into all the best things quickly'.

I know it's a little more complicated than that; but none of the things people say they want to do cannot be done with the system as is - they just time and investment. No matter how you frame it if the system returned to the way it was in 16 we'd have the same old problem, - almost everyone would end out maxing the same things with only minor adjustments for taste.

That in itself is not a bad thing necessarily, but the spread of points at the moment means players have to manage their time, manage their development and decide what to prioritize and when - and management of these things is a part of the survival aspect. Want to become self sufficient in food? Cool - but in the meantime that will have knock on effects on your ability to be a master builder or crafter.

In SP this can be more pronounced than in multiplayer in terms of being able to make the stuff you want as opposed to having to find it; but for all items, recipes, vehicles, guns, ammo etc... you can find it by looting, which is the most realistic source of 'stuff' in the immediate aftermath of the apocalypse. You can buy it or be given it as reward - which is the most realistic story centric way - or you can make it yourself - or a combination. Nothing is 'blocked' - it's just a question of how efficiently you are able to proceed to getting.

With the guns it's the same - you can find em, buy em or make em, and they kill zeds without perking - but perks make them better - but nobody is blocking you from using them or forcing you to use the ones you get additional perks for in your normal build.

It's been repeatedly put forward that if you perk into, for example, Strength, you are forced to use shotguns. You aren't - you just happen to get nice bonuses if you do - but all other guns remain effective, and you can perk into them later when you choose to.

There is an obvious attempt to balance which weapons you get the nice perks to in the main attributes - the best gun (M60) paired with the most difficult melee (fists) but with complimentary skills available - heavy armour, pain tolerance etc.. - but the notion that you should just get better with 'all' guns or melee is a bit meh for my money - like in Fallout games when 'small arms' makes you better with all guns - sure that's nice; built most people only ever use one or two types of gun for the whole game - whereas the perks 'quickdraw' 'concentrated fire' and suchlike can be picked depending on what weapons you prefer - but the end result is in a game with maybe a hundred possible options the player only ever uses <5.

In 7DtD currently you get bonuses which encourage you to use other guns, but you can still perk into your favorite and build it up until it's 'best' - but you can use it just fine in the meantime, or take advantage of the extra value gotten from the attribute bonuses.

The feeling of being 'forced' to use one gun by perks and 'unable' to use your preferred gun through not having the perks (yet) is entirely created by the player, by refusing to use an unperked gun or by insisting on using guns that have perks; and ignoring the fact that they can perk into it; they just have to manage their time and points to do so.

In all my runs of alpha 18 so far I have generally ended out having shotgun perks - yet have never used the blunderbuss because I don't like it. I've not perked into handguns at all - but use them all the time because the ammo is cheap and readily available and they kill zombies just fine. If I find a magnum, M60, Sniper rifle or hunting rifle, I'll use it - regardless of perks - depending on the situation - but at no point is 'what I'm perked into' making that decision for me - and I really don't understand how or why any player feels that it does for them.

The only thing I can see is a desire to be max perked asap, have everything available to build asap and not have to put the time and effort into developing their character, looting, questing, shopping, mining or gathering parts to craft in the way that is readily available to them.

I'm guessing I must be missing something but it feels like the core of the argument is not being willing to take advantage of the opportunities which exist and wanting an easier and quicker way to be maxed out early - which is specifically what the Devs have been trying to move away from. That was the problem with LBD - spam crafting and shooting blocks to get maxed out far earlier than the game was designed for.

 

[Kalen]

I'm guessing I must be missing something but it feels like the core of the argument is not being willing to take advantage of the opportunities which exist and wanting an easier and quicker way to be maxed out early - which is specifically what the Devs have been trying to move away from. That was the problem with LBD - spam crafting and shooting blocks to get maxed out far earlier than the game was designed for.

You are missing something.... because that really isn't the argument.

The argument is that some find it nonsensical that as you gain skill in something like cooking, you are automatically also gaining skill in shotguns. If you plan on using shotguns, this is great! However, if you were wanting to use another weapon it's not so great.

 

[DeadGerry]

You are missing something.... because that really isn't the argument.
The argument is that some find it nonsensical that as you gain skill in something like cooking, you are automatically also gaining skill in shotguns. If you plan on using shotguns, this is great! However, if you were wanting to use another weapon it's not so great.

I hear you - and please believe I'm not trying to troll you or anyone else here - but I just don't get the logic.

You DON'T get shotgun skill by improving your cooking; you get cooking by perking into cooking. As a side effect you also happen to get shotgun bonuses for perking into strength.

The effectiveness of you other options are not decreased by this - so what stops you from using them?

Is the problem;

I refuse to use weapon I'm not maxed in? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

I insist on only using the weapon I'm most perked for? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

I expect the skills that make my game easier to be maxed asap? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

I refuse to engage with any skills which don't make my game easier? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

Something else which can be defined? - I'd love to hear it.

 

[Kalen]

I hear you - and please believe I'm not trying to troll you or anyone else here - but I just don't get the logic.
You DON'T get shotgun skill by improving your cooking; you get cooking by perking into cooking. As a side effect you also happen to get shotgun bonuses for perking into strength.

Two ways of saying the same thing.... having a side effect that increases your shotgun bonuses is just another way of saying "getting better with a shotgun"

The effectiveness of you other options are not decreased by this - so what stops you from using them?

Is the problem;

I refuse to use weapon I'm not maxed in? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

I insist on only using the weapon I'm most perked for? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

I expect the skills that make my game easier to be maxed asap? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

I refuse to engage with any skills which don't make my game easier? - that's on you, and a player fault, not the games.

Something else which can be defined? - I'd love to hear it.

Some people want a survival game where you need to take advantage of every opportunity you have to survive. Using a weapon you have no skill in vs. a weapon you have passive bonuses in (due to being a good chef) is frustrating. I can certainly understand someone disagreeing with this point of view... but you say you don't even understand the point of view.... I find that odd.

 

[DeadGerry]

Two ways of saying the same thing.... having a side effect that increases your shotgun bonuses is just another way of saying "getting better with a shotgun"


Some people want a survival game where you need to take advantage of every opportunity you have to survive. Using a weapon you have no skill in vs. a weapon you have passive bonuses in (due to being a good chef) is frustrating. I can certainly understand someone disagreeing with this point of view... but you say you don't even understand the point of view.... I find that odd.

I repeat the question;

Is the problem;

I refuse to use weapon I'm not maxed in? - that's silly considering quality of gun and range / rate of fire / ammo availability re also factors.

I insist on only using the weapon I'm most perked for? - Likewise - it's one of several variables - why is this one decisive for you?

There is nothing stopping you from using the guns you want, and only time / management / skill dictating how good you get with them - why are you so opposed to earning it?

 

[Kalen]

I repeat the question;
Is the problem;

I refuse to use weapon I'm not maxed in? - that's silly considering quality of gun and range / rate of fire / ammo availability re also factors.

I insist on only using the weapon I'm most perked for? - Likewise - it's one of several variables - why is this one decisive for you?

There is nothing stopping you from using the guns you want, and only time / management / skill dictating how good you get with them - why are you so opposed to earning it?

I thought I was pretty clear with my last response.... but yeah, it's that I want to use the weapon I'm most suited for (ie. the one I'm best at). In previous alphas, you could chose which weapon you wanted to be skilled in, independent of any other skills. Now you cant. Now if you want to focus on farming, you're best at using machine guns. If you want to focus on cooking, you're best at shotguns.

Of course you can use whatever weapon you want... but using a weapon you're not skilled in, when you could use one you are skilled in is intentionally handicapping yourself. Not everyone likes doing that.

 

[DeadGerry]

I thought I was pretty clear with my last response.... but yeah, it's that I want to use the weapon I'm most suited for (ie. the one I'm best at). In previous alphas, you could chose which weapon you wanted to be skilled in, independent of any other skills. Now you cant. Now if you want to focus on farming, you're best at using machine guns. If you want to focus on cooking, you're best at shotguns.
Of course you can use whatever weapon you want... but using a weapon you're not skilled in, when you could use one you are skilled in is intentionally handicapping yourself. Not everyone likes doing that.

Thank you for your patient responses - I genuinely appreciate them - but may I offer a counter thought?

Why bother mining if you aren't maxed in mining?

Why loot if you aren't maxed in looting?

Why quest when not maxed in questing?

Why buy / sell when you aren't maxed in barter?

Why is weapon use the one thing you apply this 'must be maxed into' to? If every single other aspect of the game is guided by 'making the best of what is available' , why is it so important that the one gun you want is the only thing you get perks for, and anything else is 'wasted'?

 

[Kalen]

Thank you for your patient responses - I genuinely appreciate them - but may I offer a counter thought?
Why bother mining if you aren't maxed in mining?

Why loot if you aren't maxed in looting?

Why quest when not maxed in questing?

Why buy / sell when you aren't maxed in barter?

Why is weapon use the one thing you apply this 'must be maxed into' to? If every single other aspect of the game is guided by 'making the best of what is available' , why is it so important that the one gun you want is the only thing you get perks for, and anything else is 'wasted'?

You keep saying "maxed". Nobody has made the argument you need to be maxed to do something.

Let me counter that.... you're playing with a friend... you're friend is perked for mining and you're perked for looting. Are you going to spend the day mining while he's out looting?

Of course not. You engage in the activities you are best suited for.

 

[DeadGerry]

You keep saying "maxed". Nobody has made the argument you need to be maxed to do something.
Let me counter that.... you're playing with a friend... you're friend is perked for mining and you're perked for looting. Are you going to spend the day mining while he's out looting?

Of course not. You engage in the activities you are best suited for.

I think this is simply a disagreement of taste and style - we might choose to do what we're suited to, but if I like mining / looting I'm still gonna do it - and I'll perk accordingly - but won't let the status of perked / unperked dictate what I do and do not do.

If I DON'T enjoy something I'm not gonna do, unless I either absolutely have to or I'm taking my 'turn' doing something nobody likes - but I'd expect a good team to share out such duties; and put the experience ahead of the mechanics.

But negotiating and assigning stuff in multiplayer is part of the experience of playing multiplayer - but at no point is the game system forcing me to do anything or stopping me from doing anything.