PC Main skills only impacting specific weapons is backwards

[dex314]

After many hours in A18, it seems inverted that primary skills only offer weapon specific perks. For example, intelligence only benefits junk turrets and stun batons. If you never use those weapons, your character experiences 0 progression for unlocking those perks. However, since Intelligence is required to level bartering, you're forced to invest points in a skill that offers no benefit just to unlock a skill that does. I understand that RPG elements require choice, but choosing between HP gain and EXP gain is a choice. Choosing between pistols vs machine guns is a choice. Being forced to invest 17 skill points in machine guns just so you can become a better farmer is not a choice, it is an act of arbitrary gate-keeping. If anything, please have primary skills impact primary stats. Allow stat specific weapons to become a subskill because at the end of the day not every farmer benefits from machine gun skills, but every machine gun toting rambo benefits from stamina.

 

[Aldranon]

After many hours in A18, it seems inverted that primary skills only offer weapon specific perks. For example, intelligence only benefits junk turrets and stun batons. If you never use those weapons, your character experiences 0 progression for unlocking those perks. However, since Intelligence is required to level bartering, you're forced to invest points in a skill that offers no benefit just to unlock a skill that does. I understand that RPG elements require choice, but choosing between HP gain and EXP gain is a choice. Choosing between pistols vs machine guns is a choice. Being forced to invest 17 skill points in machine guns just so you can become a better farmer is not a choice, it is an act of arbitrary gate-keeping. If anything, please have primary skills impact primary stats. Allow stat specific weapons to become a subskill because at the end of the day not every farmer benefits from machine gun skills, but every machine gun toting rambo benefits from stamina.

Its a shooter game. So, you're getting tripped up by the words: Strength, Intelligence, ect.

Forget the words as they have no meaning. Just an odd mechanic for a focus on a weapon type. It doesn't make any sense, but it doesn't have to.

 

[Hyperbolt]

After many hours in A18, it seems inverted that primary skills only offer weapon specific perks. For example, intelligence only benefits junk turrets and stun batons. If you never use those weapons, your character experiences 0 progression for unlocking those perks. However, since Intelligence is required to level bartering, you're forced to invest points in a skill that offers no benefit just to unlock a skill that does. I understand that RPG elements require choice, but choosing between HP gain and EXP gain is a choice. Choosing between pistols vs machine guns is a choice. Being forced to invest 17 skill points in machine guns just so you can become a better farmer is not a choice, it is an act of arbitrary gate-keeping. If anything, please have primary skills impact primary stats. Allow stat specific weapons to become a subskill because at the end of the day not every farmer benefits from machine gun skills, but every machine gun toting rambo benefits from stamina.

I totally agree! I didnt like alpha 17:s perk setup, but it DID have more satisfying attribute powerups, so they should revert the main attributes to something similar again.

Yes, i know that we nowadays get more max health and stamima when we level up, so gaining +10 for each level in fortitude and agility might be overkill... Sooo give us +5 for each in those instead? I would still prefer just +5 instead of being better at weapons i dont use.

 

[Ghostlight]

Wouldn't it be amazing if the way to increase your skill with Machine Guns was...oh I don't know....to kill things with Machine Guns? i.e. you practice with them. Just a crazy thought.

 

[Hyperbolt]

Wouldn't it be amazing if the way to increase your skill with Machine Guns was...oh I don't know....to kill things with Machine Guns? i.e. you practice with them. Just a crazy thought.

Well yeah, obviously action skills is much more awesome, it was like, my favorite thing in the game in alpha 15-16!

But since that thing is taboo by the pimps... I guess its just better to give feedback on what is, rather than what used to be :/

 

[DeadGerry]

After many hours in A18, it seems inverted that primary skills only offer weapon specific perks. For example, intelligence only benefits junk turrets and stun batons. If you never use those weapons, your character experiences 0 progression for unlocking those perks. However, since Intelligence is required to level bartering, you're forced to invest points in a skill that offers no benefit just to unlock a skill that does. I understand that RPG elements require choice, but choosing between HP gain and EXP gain is a choice. Choosing between pistols vs machine guns is a choice. Being forced to invest 17 skill points in machine guns just so you can become a better farmer is not a choice, it is an act of arbitrary gate-keeping. If anything, please have primary skills impact primary stats. Allow stat specific weapons to become a subskill because at the end of the day not every farmer benefits from machine gun skills, but every machine gun toting rambo benefits from stamina.

You aren't forced to invest. You weigh up the options and possible benefits and choose which best suits your wants at any particular stage in your game. You don't need to invest in bartering, you choose to. As a bonus, that makes certain weapons better. You can choose to take advantage of that bonus, or you can choose not to. The passive boosts are bonus, The machine gun specific skills are optional.

You can choose to invest in any and all skills - it'll just take you longer if you choosenot to take advantage of the optimal combinations which the game provides.

 

[Katitof]

Wouldn't it be amazing if the way to increase your skill with Machine Guns was...oh I don't know....to kill things with Machine Guns? i.e. you practice with them. Just a crazy thought.

That ship sailed 2 years ago and isn't coming back.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You aren't forced to invest. You weigh up the options and possible benefits and choose which best suits your wants at any particular stage in your game. You don't need to invest in bartering, you choose to. As a bonus, that makes certain weapons better.

NO, NO, NO, just NO, have i already said NOOOO?

Of couse you choose. You decide you want to be able to do farming and therefore want to skill "Living of the land". Because you WANT to have "lotl" you need to skill fortitude. But with that decision come two options:

1. you are "forced" to use machine guns and/or knuckles if you want to take advantage of the skillpoints put into fortiude

2. the points put in fortitude are completely wasted because you don't use machine guns or knuckles

All that just because "lotl"? Why should a farmer not use shotguns or whatever?

You want to build an undergroundbase and therefore skill miner 69er? There you go, you are forced to shotguns and sledgehammers because of strength or need to invest in for yourself useless skillpoints.

You want to use a shotgun but for melee prefer blades? You're welcome, you need to invest twice as many skillpoints to get both weapons good in opposite of using shotguns + sledgehammer or pistols + blades.

So in the end the only thing you choose is "do i play like the skillsystem tells me to do but efficient" or "do i play like I WANT, but waste a lot of skillpoints for being able to do so".

WTF!

 

[Brian9824]

Wouldn't it be amazing if the way to increase your skill with Machine Guns was...oh I don't know....to kill things with Machine Guns? i.e. you practice with them. Just a crazy thought.

Yeah that would be awesome. Until I want to raise my armor and have to sit on a cactus.....

Or spam bandages to raise meds

Or craft more tools then i'd use in 100 games to raise tool crafting, etc. It's great for action skills, for every other skill its utterly horrible.

 

[Sjustus548]

NO, NO, NO, just NO, have i already said NOOOO?
Of couse you choose. You decide you want to be able to do farming and therefore want to skill "Living of the land". Because you WANT to have "lotl" you need to skill fortitude. But with that decision come two options:

1. you are "forced" to use machine guns and/or knuckles if you want to take advantage of the skillpoints put into fortiude

2. the points put in fortitude are completely wasted because you don't use machine guns or knuckles

All that just because "lotl"? Why should a farmer not use shotguns or whatever?

You want to build an undergroundbase and therefore skill miner 69er? There you go, you are forced to shotguns and sledgehammers because of strength or need to invest in for yourself useless skillpoints.

You want to use a shotgun but for melee prefer blades? You're welcome, you need to invest twice as many skillpoints to get both weapons good in opposite of using shotguns + sledgehammer or pistols + blades.

So in the end the only thing you choose is "do i play like the skillsystem tells me to do but efficient" or "do i play like I WANT, but waste a lot of skillpoints for being able to do so".

WTF!

1. You aren't "forced" to do anything. I have 10/10 in Agility and don't use any of the Agility weapons. I chose to go down the Agi line because I wanted Parkour and Flurry of Blows. Sometimes I use the M60 but don't have a single point in Fortitude. I choose to use it because it is sometimes easier to use than my baseball bat or shotgun against large swarms of zombies.

2. Those points in Fortitude aren't wasted because they give you access to Living of the Land which you wanted. How is that considered wasting points? If you put points in the actual machine guns or knuckles skill and then don't use it, that would be wasting points.

No one is forcing you to put points in anything. If you want to go mining then put points in to Strength. If you don't want to use the Strength based weapons then put points in to the tree that gives you access to the skills you want to use. The increases that the main stats gives you are just a bonus. They don't lock you in to any specific playstyle. Play how you want to. Not how you imagine someone else is trying to force you to play.

 

[DeadGerry]

NO, NO, NO, just NO, have i already said NOOOO?
Of couse you choose. You decide you want to be able to do farming and therefore want to skill "Living of the land". Because you WANT to have "lotl" you need to skill fortitude. But with that decision come two options:

1. you are "forced" to use machine guns and/or knuckles if you want to take advantage of the skillpoints put into fortiude

2. the points put in fortitude are completely wasted because you don't use machine guns or knuckles

All that just because "lotl"? Why should a farmer not use shotguns or whatever?

You want to build an undergroundbase and therefore skill miner 69er? There you go, you are forced to shotguns and sledgehammers because of strength or need to invest in for yourself useless skillpoints.

You want to use a shotgun but for melee prefer blades? You're welcome, you need to invest twice as many skillpoints to get both weapons good in opposite of using shotguns + sledgehammer or pistols + blades.

So in the end the only thing you choose is "do i play like the skillsystem tells me to do but efficient" or "do i play like I WANT, but waste a lot of skillpoints for being able to do so".

WTF!

I'm really not trying to troll you, but it does seem as though you are choosing to see this in the most negative possible way.

You haven't 'wasted' the points; you've spent them to get access to Living off the Land, and - as a bonus, it has made your fists and machine gun get a bonus. You can choose to take advantage of that passively by using your fists or a machine gun, toy can choose to optimize it further by perking into the Brawler or Machine Gunner perks, or you can choose to use any other weapon you want, and perk that weapon later.

None of these choices involves wasting the points into Fortitude, it's just how much of an advantage you chose to make of that path at that time. Your clubs, hammers, spears, machetes, handguns, shotguns and rifles remain effective - and you can make them more effective by choosing to perk into them later.

Which you prioritize is up to you. When you perk them is up to you. There is no level cap - it's just a matter of how much time you put into it. The farmer absolutely CAN use shotguns or whatever, they just won't be OP. I'm not sure you are appreciating how OP weapons become when you are fully perked - and how effective they remain even when un-perked.

The only thing you cannot do is get everything that you want from one skill tree.

So in the end you choose every single aspect of what you perk into and when - and you choose to play how you like - but you don't get to be OP in every single thing you want without a substantial investment of time and effort.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

1. You aren't "forced" to do anything. I have 10/10 in Agility and don't use any of the Agility weapons. I chose to go down the Agi line because I wanted Parkour and Flurry of Blows.

And i am currently are fortitude 8 because i want to do lotl. And i have strength 8 because i want to have master chef. Because i am the one in our multiplayer group who is responsible for food. And i have perception 10 because i want to use sniper rifles. What a waste of skillpoints.

2. Those points in Fortitude aren't wasted because they give you access to Living of the Land which you wanted. How is that considered wasting points?

It's considered wasted because these points have absolutely no effect for me, but they would have if i would use other weapons.

If you think the points in fortitude are part of the cost for lotl, then lotl 4 costs a total of 14 skillpoints (10 for fortitude 8 and 4 into lotl directly). And that is something that you call a "balance"?

Well if it is intended that you need 14 skillpoints for lotl, then remove all buffs from the 5 base skills, and see them as "just prerequisit without any effect". That's what they basically already are if you do not want to use that weapons the devs decided to "have to be used" if you skilled this. Welcome to obfuscated level gates.

I already told it a dozen of times here. I'm not complaining about needing fortitude 8 to skill lotl 4. BUT fortitude itself should then give a generic effect like 2% more HP per level or +5% armor points per level, or whatever but not to specific items which make the skill completely useless if you don't use that specific item. Buffs for specific items should be limited to perks which are no prerequisit for other skills.

If you want to skill shotguns, fine, then skill the perks, they might need strength, but don't buff only shotguns by stength itself.

 

[Katitof]

2. the points put in fortitude are completely wasted because you don't use machine guns or knuckles

That's true only and exclusively if you keep putting points there without getting any non combat perk over rank 1.

Also, you're not forced to put points into anything, its all about what you prefer. There are skill books for all craftables and if you want to have better regeneration, then you're not wasting any point, because you have no other way to unlock higher rank of perk.

You also don't need to absolutely maximize every single point you spend, sorry OCD min maxers, you aren't going to go far in A18 and beyond.

 

[Ghostlight]

Yeah that would be awesome. Until I want to raise my armor and have to sit on a cactus.....
Or spam bandages to raise meds

Or craft more tools then i'd use in 100 games to raise tool crafting, etc. It's great for action skills, for every other skill its utterly horrible.

Why bring that up? I was suggesting it purely for weapon skills. This is not LBD as we used to have it this is a brand new suggestion. Look:

1) Everyone is dissatisfied with the way weapon skills are currently tied to a specific attribute. If there are no other perks in that attribute you want, tough, you need to "waste" a crap-ton of precious perk points. This is inherently garbage design.

2) Limiting LBD to weapon skills means it cannot be exploited by "spam-killing". You need a target to kill and a bullet to fire, so your ability to increase each skill is naturally limited. Furthermore you would not be able to put any points into weapon skills, the only way to raise those perks is to use the weapon.

3) Players will grow organically, and progression will free very satisfying. If you are a Pistol user, you can still try out any other build you like but still use your beloved Pistols in a satisfying way.

It's a goddam great idea.

 

[Ghostlight]

You haven't 'wasted' the points.

Eh? In each and every situation where there is a skill that a player considers a "must max", but there is no other skill in that attribute that he wants at all, all the points in that attribute were wasted when compared to the situation where the player did happen to want a ton of other skills in teh same attribute. This puts massive limitations on the builds we can try.

For me it is Fortitude. I like to engage the horde and I like to play on higher difficulties. I feel that I MUST MAX Machine Guns because I consider AKs and M60s the *only* weapons that would cut it versus the type of horde strength I am facing, and I need all the damage I can get. This means I must max Fort, yet there is not one other skill in Fort that I would ever consider raising above 1 point. Not one. That's 17 points in Fortitude wasted. That leaves a helluva bad taste. People defending this as good design need their head examined. It's a huge limitation on the potential builds.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

That's true only and exclusively if you keep putting points there without getting any non combat perk over rank 1.Also, you're not forced to put points into anything, its all about what you prefer. There are skill books for all craftables and if you want to have better regeneration, then you're not wasting any point, because you have no other way to unlock higher rank of perk.

You obviously don't get what i am saying. But i already told it dozens of times here in the forum and i'm getting tired of repeating it again and again and the answers still make me ask myself if people even read my posts or just didn't understand what i was saying.

The base skills perception, strength, fortitude, ... should give genereic buffs usefull for everybody independently on what item he is using, wants to use or prefers to use over whatever. Buffing specific items should be limited to perks for this specific item (like dead eye, machine gunner, boomstick, ...).

And i don't talk about min maxing at all. If i invest a skillpoint i want this skillpoint to have an effect for me and my playstyle. My playstyle decides what i like to skill, not the skills dictate my playstyle, but the current system does. It does not "force" me, but if i want to be skill-efficient it puts me into specific directions.

I'd never invest a skillpoint into boomstick if i'm not even using shotguns. But i need to invest skillpoints into strength because other perks (and not only shotgun perks!!!!) have this as prerequisit, no matter if i WANT to use shotguns or not.

 

[Sjustus548]

Why bring that up? I was suggesting it purely for weapon skills. This is not LBD as we used to have it this is a brand new suggestion. Look:
1) Everyone is dissatisfied with the way weapon skills are currently tied to a specific attribute. If there are no other perks in that attribute you want, tough, you need to "waste" a crap-ton of precious perk points. This is inherently garbage design.

2) Limiting LBD to weapon skills means it cannot be exploited by "spam-killing". You need a target to kill and a bullet to fire, so you ability to increase each skill is naturally limited. Furthermore you would not be able to put any points into weapon skills, the only way to rise those perks is to use the weapon.

3) Players will grow organically, and progression will free very satisfying. If you are a Pistol user, you can still try out any other build you like but still use your beloved Pistols in a satisfying way.

It's a goddam great idea.

Whenever I see someone claim that "everyone is dissatisfied with X" they usually do a poll and are proven that they are actually in the minority. I'm not dissatisfied by the way the current weapon skills are set up. I prefer the current skill system to the way it used to be where you just had to spam stuff until you got high enough skills to do what you actually wanted to. Limiting LBD to just weapons feels like it would be very odd. You have to learn how to use guns but don't have to learn to use tools or how to craft things? The character will grow organically, unless they are doing something other than killing, then they will grow by putting points in to skills to get better. It would be a very odd way to progress your character.

 

[hotpoon]

After many hours in A18, it seems inverted that primary skills only offer weapon specific perks. For example, intelligence only benefits junk turrets and stun batons. If you never use those weapons, your character experiences 0 progression for unlocking those perks. However, since Intelligence is required to level bartering, you're forced to invest points in a skill that offers no benefit just to unlock a skill that does. I understand that RPG elements require choice, but choosing between HP gain and EXP gain is a choice. Choosing between pistols vs machine guns is a choice. Being forced to invest 17 skill points in machine guns just so you can become a better farmer is not a choice, it is an act of arbitrary gate-keeping. If anything, please have primary skills impact primary stats. Allow stat specific weapons to become a subskill because at the end of the day not every farmer benefits from machine gun skills, but every machine gun toting rambo benefits from stamina.

I agree its not ideal. I brought these points up with MM in the feedback thread a little while back because in my mind the current skill tree isn't a skill tree - it's pidgeon-holing us into using 1 of a few preset builds. If you like one attribute build as is, then great, but if you want a variety of things from different attribute builds, it feels like a big waste of points. At least it does to me anyway.

MM doesn't think so. He says he never feels like his points are wasted, and they have apparently made it this way to encourage replayability. For some people that may work. I don't know. I don't see it personally. I'm always going to play the same or similar way each play through. I've restarted Skyrim many times intending to play a different way, but I always end up playing the same way because that's what I enjoy.

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

And i am currently are fortitude 8 because i want to do lotl. And i have strength 8 because i want to have master chef. Because i am the one in our multiplayer group who is responsible for food. And i have perception 10 because i want to use sniper rifles. What a waste of skillpoints.

Then your group is terrible at dividing up responsibilities.

In our group, the chef is the one who is specialised in strength and uses baseball bats. The farmer is the one who is specialised in fortitude and uses their fists. The hunter is the one who is specialised in perception and uses spears and rifles (the hunter and farmer tend to work together - the hunter shoots the animal and the farmer harvests the meat from the corpse).

If your group is choosing to give you a general "food" responsibiity (which uses strength, perception, and fortitude for cooking/hunting/farming) rather than splitting the responsibility up so each person does the part that they're good at then that's the group's fault, not the game's fault.

Other than all of us getting a couple of points in fortitude because we wanted (not needed, wanted) the recovery and iron stomach perks, my group specialise in an attribute each. It works fine.

 

[Sjustus548]

I agree its not ideal. I brought these points up with MM in the feedback thread a little while back because in my mind the current skill tree isn't a skill tree - it's pidgeon-holing us into using 1 of a few preset builds. If you like one attribute build as is, then great, but if you want a variety of things from different attribute builds, it feels like a big waste of points. At least it does to me anyway.
MM doesn't think so. He says he never feels like his points are wasted, and they have apparently made it this way to encourage replayability. For some people that may work. I don't know. I don't see it personally. I'm always going to play the same or similar way each play through. I've restarted Skyrim many times intending to play a different way, but I always end up playing the same way because that's what I enjoy.

I'm the same way when replaying a game. I started my latest map planning to go with a completely different build. I went Int and was going to go Stun Batons and Junk Turrets. That lasted a while until I bought a respec potion and went right back to my shotguns and mining lol. I did branch out and get two perks in Agility that I never got before, Parkour and the one that increases swing speed. That's about as far as I've made it for a different playstyle this time lol.