PC Looting Progression Plan

[Roland]

Also, if the plan is to add gamestage modifiers to specific containers, does that mean containers such as gunsafes and armored chests will have appropiate loot inside them?

That I don’t know. I’ve heard modifiers to biomes and to POIs. If they can add them to specific containers or other types of areas that would be cool. It would be cool to have a region like a city have a modifier. 
 

The problem with adding them to just a container is that only affects the loot. The point is to have better loot guarded by tougher enemies. 

 

[Laz Man]

That I don’t know. I’ve heard modifiers to biomes and to POIs. If they can add them to specific containers or other types of areas that would be cool. It would be cool to have a region like a city have a modifier. 
 

The problem with adding them to just a container is that only affects the loot. The point is to have better loot guarded by tougher enemies. 

It makes more sense to attach the modifier to certain biomes and maybe some POIs only.  That would allow them to reuse some POIs in other biomes without too much rework to existing POIs.

 

[Roland]

Nerdpoling is more like a strategy/shortcut.

Sorry for the confusion. I was using that imagery as an example of going straight to the loot room and bypassing the rest. Nerdpoling will remain and you can use it to go straight to the loot room. But then you’ll find it very difficult to grab the loot until you find the key. Perhaps lockpicking or c4 will still work. Probably they will. The loot room stuff is still just talk at this point. They may just spread the loot around more. Or they might just do nothing on this score. 

 

[AtomicUs5000]

That I don’t know. I’ve heard modifiers to biomes and to POIs. If they can add them to specific containers or other types of areas that would be cool. It would be cool to have a region like a city have a modifier. 
 

The problem with adding them to just a container is that only affects the loot. The point is to have better loot guarded by tougher enemies. 

I haven't looked in a while to see if changes were made to this, but I'm pretty sure sleeper spawns can have a gamestage multiplier applied to them. So, if they really wanted to go through POIs and adjust that, I'm pretty sure they could. 
If the already placed sleepers of a POI are guarding some loot, the spawn group of which it calls should already be affected by whatever gamestage increase has occurred as a result of being in some specific biome. The only thing that really needs to be done is adjust the gamestage when entering/leaving biomes. (I thought they already did this too)
I don't see the need to add even more adjustment to a specific container. All the tools to accomplish this are either there or will be soon.
I mean in terms of the zombies protecting the loot, of course, not what loot contains.

"Step 6: Implement a method for preventing the nerdpole smash and grab. There has been no official word on what that method will be although Madmole seems to like the idea of needing to find a key."

I've liked this idea since I first saw it brought up back in A17. I'm concerned about the implementation of it though. I can see them putting it in, and then not realizing someone could take a key from an easy POI and use it on a hard POI. Also concerned about the confusion that will arise with lockpicks. Additionally, it will be kinda weird when all the larger POIs are like this. You'll get that gimmicky feeling, similar to sleeper placements. More than one idea would be better.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@JCrook1028 I know. Still a fact that many people think streamer weekends suck because most of us need to wait another 5 days to play the new version properly because 8 hrs of work everyday. So actually a lot do get it a week later due to a monday release. It used to be thursday before the streamer weekend happened. Or maybe i am thinking of another game here...

 

[meganoth]

@meganoth I'm not saying all RPG's are perfect nor do their lore explain "everything" never once did I say that, and I don't care for online Multiplayer rpgs at all.  WoW was the only one I played for a long time and I got BORED of it because after a while it's just plain boring doing linear all the same things with slightly larger mobs which are the exact same as the low level mobs.  I did try Elder Scrolls online with some friends and again same thing, boring.  Soooo boring it's all the same crap over and over again.

So no not all lore is great for rpg games.  But the truly good ones.  I suppose you could put D&D in this, though I've only played the odd D&D game on the computer. They have an established lore, ,or reasonable lore or at least interesting lore.

I'm specifically not talking about MMORPGs. I may have been misreading what you say about lore explaining everything, sorry

D&D RPGs have exactly the discrepancy I was talking about. A lvl 10 guard from a high-level city could just massacre dozens of lvl 1 soldiers of a low-level city or country.

I also made my point because you concluded something because of the lights still glowing in 7D2D. Which would be really unexplainable because after a zombie outbreak power plants and all the electrical networks would fail to work within hours or days at most. The lights are simply one of the unexplainable things and who knows, may have been just the idea of a graphics designer to liven up the scenery. They don't signify anything at the moment (at least that is my interpretation).

I think you're misunderstanding. The key would almost certainly be for the loot container, not the room it's in. If we start to see impenetrable rooms in houses (made of Trader-style gong blocks?), well...ALL OF THE HAIR will be on fire in these forums.

Why impenetrable? For early and mid-game it simply works to have a room with reinforced concrete or even steel. You have the choice to find the key in a fun game of whack-a-zombie or hack away for 10 minutes on two or even 4 steel blocks. Well, YOU have the choice, my choice can only be to whack. 

I remember Madmole saying that trader-style blocks are definitely out of the question for locked loot rooms by the way.

This is a HUGE problem with TFP simply taking their cues from telemetry instead of actually listening to players. Unless their telemetry can tell them whether and exactly what people have changed, it's pretty much worthless.

Telemetry will tell them if the game is modded and what version is getting played. Come on, do you think they and the company they use for telemetry are out of a Monty Python sketch? .

EDIT: Here is an excerpt of the privacy declaration: 

Some things we are capturing include:

Game simulation settings
How XP is earned
How players die
How players kill enemies
The speed of player leveling
Loot Progression at key points

It is also made clear that they are only getting telemetry data from A19 players. If everyone is playing A18 or A16, they will simply see very low numbers of A19 players compared to the total number of players.

 

[RhinoW]

I chose "Other Reaction".

So I, in general, "like" the new progression system as it does in fact extend the game's length. However, it was never about JUST finding better loot, the game kept you playing because you wanted to upgraded your base to it's maximum potential and see it hold off the hardest hordes with ease, this new loot change just shifts the perspective into making you focus on your gear alone, rather than your home defense or construction (this also ties into perks but I'm not falling into that hole again).

These are the stuff I have been thinking since I first played the experimental:

- Primitive items should be found in survivor caches/stashes, instead of having crates on top of PoI's as "Dungeon Reward", how about, depending on the PoI you actually just have a mini survivor camp where he left some of his stuff? Like some PoI's have the chair and reinforced chest on the roof(food ones for example).

- How about having these survivor stashes (also add new lootable blocks mind you) not JUST as dungeon reward, since primitive weapons are not the best either, you are just trying to find (in madmole's words) "something better than what you have". TLR Low tier rewards with low tier effort.

- Have a RNG system inside the PoI for a specfic set of blocks, for example, in shotgun messiah normal stores, where there's a bunch of crates on top of shelves and a ton more in the back. How about those blocks, get changed whenever the PoI spawns or is refreshed? (Switches between: Full crate, cracked crate, no crate, something else). It would also make up for more interesting replayability.

- Following the previous suggestion, this way, you wouldn't need to severely reduce the chances of getting an actual weapon or iron tool, because that change would already be apparent as soon as you look at the block (meaning, you could be clearing out a PoI, for a bunch of open crates, it leads up to a similar result, but this way the player doesn't feel cheated on). It also should mean that if you see a pristine crate, it SHOULD contain, at the very least, 1 weapon + (mods, ammo, both, another gun), and later on much more and much rarer stuff.

- And also, for the love of god, actually remove the goddamn special chests and crates (even in late game's rewards) from food PoI's and stuff like that. I'm not looting a freaking fast food restaurant for a shotgun, it makes no sense.

- The big reinforced military chest should not contain bad stuff, period, it should always be the most reliable source of a BIG REWARD, but obviously should be more well guarded. Some of these problems will get fixed with the additions of bosses and special infected, i'm sure of it.

Conclusion:

It's going in the right direction, but there is more the devs could have done already to make the looting much more interesting until the great A20 additions that will also improve the loot balance. Some of the major problems that were fixed by nerfing the loot, should have been fixed by making it harder to get instead or spreading it out.

My suggestions are take it or leave it honestly, i'm not here to get into more pointless arguments. The devs obviously have their own vision of the game, and I'm just another guy writing on the forum. Meanwhile I'll be waiting for the next updates and a modding kit.

I apologize for any grammar mistakes that may occur.

 

[Boidster]

Why impenetrable? For early and mid-game it simply works to have a room with reinforced concrete or even steel. You have the choice to find the key in a fun game of whack-a-zombie or hack away for 10 minutes on two or even 4 steel blocks. Well, YOU have the choice, my choice can only be to whack. 

One or two layers of steel-reinforced concrete surrounding the attic of a POI house? ALL THE HAIR will be on fire, I'm telling you. It will be Realism War III in here. Never mind that every POI will need to be redesigned to have a new "loot room" added, or to have its existing room upgraded to concrete or steel.

The easiest change that doesn't cause widespread hair fires is to just make the big lockbox require a key. A key specific to that instance of that POI, if possible.

I'm not advocating for keys-required lockboxes; I find myself mostly ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I have no problem with players using the tools the game gives them (ladders, nerdpoles) to reach any part of a POI at any time they wish. When I'm on my first-few-days hunt for a cooking pot and a wrench, bet yer a** that I bust through the boarded-up windows on the outside of houses trying to find the kitchen. Kill any sleepers in there and loot just the sink/stove/cabinets.

On the other hand, I don't find locked loot containers to be unrealistic at all. (Set aside for the moment the arguments about finding stone tools in them.) So my hair would stay unenflamed over that addition to the game. Might be kinda neat if the trader sold Skeleton Keys (expensive!) which would open any lockbox in any POI.

On the gripping hand, after all the biome and POI-specific gamestage boosts, maybe the idea of laddering up to the loot room will be dangerous enough, so that the risk vs. reward ratio is still reasonable. That's where I can see the developers' point - it's not so much about "forcing" us into a playstyle, it's about at least making the risk/reward ratios stay within reason. Ladder up an easy POI straight to the loot room? Sure, but you're getting blunderbuss ammo and some lockpicks.

Want better loot while still bypassing The One True Path, well you better be ready for +50 or +100 gamestage, which will determine both the loot you find and the strength of the zombies guarding it.

 

[Kalen]

Never mind that every POI will need to be redesigned to have a new "loot room" added, or to have its existing room upgraded to concrete or steel.

Joel indicated that the key idea would not be for every POI.... just some of the high end ones.

 

[meganoth]

One or two layers of steel-reinforced concrete surrounding the attic of a POI house? ALL THE HAIR will be on fire, I'm telling you. It will be Realism War III in here. Never mind that every POI will need to be redesigned to have a new "loot room" added, or to have its existing room upgraded to concrete or steel.

Such a loot room would only be possible for high tier POIs (4 and 5?), naturally. I did not talk about the chances of any solution eventually landing in the game, I'm just telling you that THIS proposed solution works without and was never planned with indestructable walls.

 

[Boidster]

Such a loot room would only be possible for high tier POIs (4 and 5?), naturally. I did not talk about the chances of any solution eventually landing in the game, I'm just telling you that THIS proposed solution works without and was never planned with indestructable walls.

Oops, okay I see the disconnect. I was responding to a response to a response to this, which was more generic:

Step 6: Implement a method for preventing the nerdpole smash and grab. There has been no official word on what that method will be although Madmole seems to like the idea of needing to find a key.

I agree that the cement/steel loot room would at least fit better in the T4/5 POIs. I think it's a less elegant solution than a key for the lockbox itself, but at least pre-auger it would work to dissuade casual smash-and-grabbers.

 

[Matt]

I chose option 4.

A lot of people are saying this new progression system bores them but I'm just the opposite.  On the old system I would get everything too fast and was bored by day 21.  On my new game since A19 stable I'm on day 11 and just now getting purple stone axes, shovels, padded armor and loving it.  I have felt the progression with the stone weapons/tools and I know I'm really close to start getting iron.  This current game will go way beyond day 21 for me because now there is still so much to get still.  I was tired of getting steel stuff during the first week or two, yawning and saying well not much else to do.

I am excited for the direction this game is going as well.  When all the changes are made I'll still hang out in the forest for a long time getting better stone stuff for a week or so then try harder biomes and POI's.

 

[Roland]

On the other hand, I don't find locked loot containers to be unrealistic at all. (Set aside for the moment the arguments about finding stone tools in them.)

That’s because it isn’t unrealistic. In fact on MP servers I used locked containers all the time.
 

A locked safe is not locked to the owner. He can store whatever he wants and gain access to it easily.

 

[Scyris]

I voted 1 because as is, I can't find the desire to even start a game after seeing so many blunderbusses on the Youtubers play through. That said I don't keep up with the dev diary so I had no idea what future plans were and after reading them now I find them very interesting. 

The reason I voted option 1 is because the question was "how do you feel about the CURRENT loot progression" and in the current state it is in, I can't bring myself to play it. I think it was a bad idea to release this in the current state it is in because we have to live with it for quite some time. 

The reason I dislike it is because when I start a game, the worst part for me is having to break that first stone, that first tree. You literally beat on those things like 50 times before you get a little stone or wood so I usually don't gather much material until I have a few skills, I just can't do it with the stamina restrictions. Instead I go looting, kill some zambies and level a bit to increase my stamina and the speed in which I can gather materials to start building anything. 

As it is now, looting is no longer worth it imo and I have no clue what I am supposed to even do other than suffer lol. I really can't imagine how to even begin and this is what stopped me from playing A19.

I knew there would be changes eventually and I'm sure we have all skipped an Alpha so it's not a big deal to me really. There are more things that add to my hesitation and that is the fact that not all zombies are done yet and I'd kinda like to see the whole package when it is done rather than half done. There are also other things like performance but that is a discussion for another thread or could just be my PC which is good but could have some kind of issue somewhere and I just don't feel like messing with it as all other games run perfectly.

Long story short, the CURRENT state is awful but what they have planned for the future as far as looting goes sounds really good. I'm confident they will hit the sweet spot eventually.

I voted 1 for now as well, as I am not a kiss-ass, the current system is garbage and should be reverted until they have it finalized, the curretn loot system right now has completly destroyed the game for me to the point I don't even wanna play it anymore due to how linear it is. Even when its finalized I think a18's loot would be better with just some tweaks done to it.

Listen: Loot in sandbox games should not be linear like this, thats why a18 loot was so perfect, you could get lucky and get steel tools on day 1, I mean it'd be quality 1, but still a nice find. There was no need to change how loot worked from a18, you could have still added the biome/poi tier modifiers for higher chance of better loot in a18 without completly screwing the pooch for early/midgame. Its a perfect example of: If it ain't broke don't try to fix it. As A18 loot was not broke it was pretty much perfect for the type of game 7dtd was. I liked it because I play dead is dead, and every game even on the same map, was different, some games I found steel tools early, or the chem lab plan, other games, I never found steel tools period and had to craft them. One game rng really screwed with me and I found almost no guns in loot period, that was actually a fun one, had to rely on trader for my weapons for a change.

New loot in a19? completly removed all randomness to looting, making every game the same carbon copy stuff every run, it took out all of the fun of the game for me and many others. One of the best aspects of a18 was the loot system, and how random it was, it was nice knowing that every run even on the same map is not going to be the exact same, since loot was random. A19? again, same crap every game, making it have virtually 0 replay value, because lets face it, in 7dtd once your established, there currently is no real reason to keep playing. The early game is the best part of 7dtd currently, and a19 completly ruined that with nothing to look forward to really (yet anyway).

Anyone who voted they like the system probably don't know what a sandbox style game is, or has started recently and shouldn't really be answering the poll as they wouldn't know what a18 etc was like, and these forums are a small section to poll from imo. Newer players are prob happy with the change as they are new and don't know any better, but many of the older players who been around a while in general dislike the a19 loot.

The gameplan sounds intersting, the main issue is you started to introduce the new system in too base of a form, and should have waited till you at least had the biome/poi tier gamestage bonuses put in before doing it. Though even with that I still think a18's loot system would be better, I like randomness in sandbox games, which is why I pretty much always play on randomgen maps, makes each game a new experience, or at least it used too, till the loot system was ruined in a19. Now? its same garbage in every container in the same set pattern. In A18, looting a safe always had better loot than say opening a random box, this is no longer the case in a19, that gunsafe is going to be filled with primitive tools just like every other container early game.

 

[Tmodloader]

 Anyone who voted they like the system probably don't know what a sandbox style game is, or has started recently and shouldn't really be answering the poll as they wouldn't know what a18 etc was like

Maybe old vets shouldn't be answering the polls because their views are clouded by what they're familiar with instead of the actual merits

 

[Scyris]

Maybe old vets shouldn't be answering the polls because their views are clouded by what they're familiar with instead of the actual merits

What merits does the a19 system have? I see literally NONE, it makes early game boring as @%$*#! other than maybe the VERY first time you play the game as a new player, by the 2nd or 3rd time you will end up disliking it too as its the same every game you play.

Like what merits do you see in the a19 system? all I see it doing is forcing people to just not loot things period because it'll have garbage in it, and it makes every game the exact same. I cannot see ANY merits whatsoever with the a19 loot. I mean if it was say, a linear single player rpg, this loot would be fine, but its a sandbox type game, linear loot is never a good idea in these games as it ruins them.

Spending the time to open a 7000 hp box only to get stone tools is a real kick in the jimmies imo, same for gunsafes getting the same garbage in everyone is ugh. The big issue is that it made loot linear and predictable, not to mention the guarnteed quality 5-6 items you get out of literally every single damn container, thats another problem with the system. in A18, quality 4-6 stuff was rare even at higher game stage, in a19? it drops like water in every container once your gs is about at the end of that tier.

I used to play hours and hours of 7dtd every update, but after playing 3 games of a19 and realizing every game is the exact same loot wise, I have lost almost all interest, because the looting aspect of the game and killing zombies is what brought me here in the first place, well that and the fully destroyable world. As for the crafting, I feel its way to basic myself mind you I do craft a ton of stuff, in a18 and a19, I often craft my weapons as I can craft better ones than I could find in loot early game, unless in a18, I got lucky with rng.

ALSO, the fact Roland even had to make a post like this kinda proves its a big problem for a large amount of players, not to mention all the posts about it where the general reaction has been mostly negative. This is almost as negative a game change as when they took out learn by doing. At least this one is MUCH easier to fix, just go back to a18 style loot in 19.1, as its just 1 file loot.xml iirc with the new a19 items added. It could be fixed in a19.1 its that quick of a fix, to make the majority of players happy.

 

[RestInPieces]

Maybe old vets shouldn't be answering the polls because their views are clouded by what they're familiar with instead of the actual merits

With all due respect, maybe people that have nothing to say shouldn't be dismissing multiple paragraph posts with some cliche "you don't like change" presumption.

 

[Darklegend222]

I voted 1 because this current version just isn't great. Mainly because there is nothing worse than getting 3 level 1-2 blunderbusses from POIs and then getting attacked later on by a bear or direwolf at gamestage 4. I would've voted 2 had i read the dev diary but as of now, it is terrible. The loot is balanced but not the enemies. The enemies are completely broken as of now, bikers, wolves, and bears will attack you even with a gamestage of 4. With that said, It needs A LOT of more balancing and work. Later versions do have potential, but I cannot recommend this version in its state, its broken, halfway finished, and too grindy to play.

Now that the enemies have been covered, lets move to skills. For instance, Intellect. Its good, advanced engineering helps immensely and you need it to progress. However, crucibles being locked behind 5 perks in the advanced engineering skill, (requires 10 intellect level and 5 perks in advanced engineering) in order to even START making steel if you have awful "luck" with schematics. "You can craft forged steel and items 12% cheaper" cool right? Not if you don't even have the ability to make steel. Same thing with master chef, why is it locked behind strength? I play with a couple friends and our "cook" has to be a higher level in strength, which I already am because I like sledgehammers and crafting better tools. Yet our "cook" also does intellect for those workbenches and steel ingots I need for better tools. It needs more work in my opinion, cooking in the intellect skill makes more sense, and it helps us balance our skills better.

Finally, we need a better variety of traps. On day 7 I can BARELY survive with wooden spikes as its difficult to get guns and proper weapons IN TIME before the 7 days, let alone make a horde base. Every trap needs iron, or generator banks. The only trap that doesn't that you CAN make is wooden spikes which are really bad. Unless you get lucky and the trader it sends you to is selling a robotic turret thats at least level 3 that you are able to supply ammo for before the 7th day and run quests within those first 7 hours of gameplay.

I hope the future changes in the dev diary truly make this game better than this half-broken game we see now.

 

[Tmodloader]

I will give you that, I've only played one game in A19 so far but looting isn't really redundant early at all as long as you aren't playing on a very small world. I was skeptical of the system and the rumors of hundreds of blunderbusses early on made me believe this system would suck, for me I'm at GS90 right now, only ever saw one Blunderbuss.

Main merits with the new system for me is an increase in the value of early points in crafting (not that it increased much) And a prolonged struggle to get desired equip like guns. Also it seems gun parts and such drop more frequently early on than they used to further increasing the value of crafting. Parts of guns and such are the biggest hurdle of making crafting valuable now. 

You have a point where the game might feel more samey now early. Notice no one said they loved the system enough for it to stay the same, people that like the direction are hoping for more variety of loot to decrease the samey experience you're getting.

With all due respect, maybe people that have nothing to say shouldn't be dismissing multiple paragraph posts with some cliche "you don't like change" presumption.

That was just my bark at "anyone that likes this has no idea what they're talking about" basically  :classic_laugh:

 

[RestInPieces]

However, crucibles being locked behind 5 perks in the advanced engineering skill, (requires 10 intellect level and 5 perks in advanced engineering) in order to even START making steel if you have awful "luck" with schematics.

These things have to be gated, there is no other way - the game has to build a progression curve (preferably a seamless one, without player scaling, based on difficulty, zones, events instead).

Notice no one said they loved the system enough for it to stay the same, people that like the direction are hoping for more variety of loot to decrease the samey experience you're getting.

Most survival games out there would be envious of the loot variety 7DTD has. I don't think increasing it will solve most of the problem - it's like pouring water in a cracked pot. It used to be the case that you could get steel on day 1-2, which sucked because the game didn't exploit this variety at all. Now the current system distributes this variety linearly (and that alone makes it feel poor). While extended "tech stages" is something I've been asking for forever, the merits of the system that are being touted could be achieved in a myriad, much better ways than this one. 

That was just my bark at "anyone that likes this has no idea what they're talking about" basically  :classic_laugh:

Fair enough!