PC Long-term resource problems

[Ghostlight]

Now I have had a chance to play several playthroughs of A17 to "late-game" (post day 50), a few long-term resource issues have raised their head. I mostly play co-op and I am typically the miner/bullet supplier for 3 players. This means I have the job of producing *at least* 2000 9mm rounds (or equivalent) for each player, every week.

I find a couple of necessary resources are much harder to gather then their peers. Namely:

1) Bones (in fact the main resources needed are Paper and Duct Tape but it all stems from Bones).

2) Lead. Who'd have thought? In our ammo chest right now is 10k Gunpowder. No Bullet Tips. No lead.

I think both these resources need to be looked at, so either they are made more prevalent on the map, or there are more sources of them introduced. Brass comes a close third on this list, for the record, though Steel Casing help alleviate this. Without Steel Casing being in the game, Brass would absolutely be the #1 long-term scarce resource.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Well, brass is supposed to be a limiting factor, and at least one reason to get the player out of their base and looting.

Lead, can't say I've ever had a problem with to be honest, so I was surprised to hear that one.

Bones, yes, there's quite a few threads relating to A17 and bones, it may well get further revisions in future patches, but that's up to the Pimps.

 

[RipClaw]

Well, brass is supposed to be a limiting factor, and at least one reason to get the player out of their base and looting.

Brass is not that limiting anymore because you can use steel ammunition as a replacement. It does fewer damage and you need more repair kits but it works.

- - - Updated - - -

1) Bones (in fact the main resources needed are Paper and Duct Tape but it all stems from Bones).

The best source for bones at the moment is probably the Doggos. If you utilize the respawn and have Huntsman at least 3 then you can harvest 40-50 bones at each respawn. If you are lucky with the seed, you have several doggos that you can visit regularly. This is of course not very exciting if you are forced to use such repetitive methods to get enough bones.

It has already been suggested that something else might be introduced as a raw material for glue such as pine resin. But this has not met with much approval so far.

By the way, does anyone know what the doggos in the prefabs.xml file is called ?

EDIT: I found it. It is called business_old_07

 

[Weazelsun]

Traders also, combine that with doing a quest and daily shopping. You should be able to gather some necessary resources + ammo from quest rewards.

 

[Ghostlight]

Lead is the surprise. You gather it at the same rate as Nitrate + Coal (when mining boulders), but it is used up much more quickly than Gunpowder is, as the ammo recipes demand more Lead than Gunpowder per round.

 

[RestInPieces]

I find a couple of necessary resources are much harder to gather then their peers.

Are you saying all recipe materials should have the same rarity/availability? Cause there wouldn't be much point in recipes with multiple materials if that was the case.

The best source for bones at the moment is probably the Doggos... if you are forced to use such repetitive methods to get enough bones.

It has already been suggested that something else might be introduced as a raw material for glue such as pine resin.

More repetitive than cutting wood and getting resin? MM said something about changing bone to bone fragments (with increased number) and adding them to birds/snakes as well.

Guys, if you want to be able to craft more bullets, just say so right away

 

[USSF06]

I agree about the lead. I gave up trying to produce my own ammo. Instead, I produce things for the trader and buy all of theirs.

 

[zombo]

You can get all the paper you'd ever need by slicing up all the huge paper rolls in the paper mill which are a common poi.

Butcher pete, doggos, carls corn, and the bear cave in the unfinished house poi's are also good places for bones.

Buying glue is easy later game cause money doesn't have enough uses either. Just raid all the traders when they restock.

Of course I'd be fine with the occasional bone from a zombie corpse.

 

[JCrook1028]

Lead is the surprise. You gather it at the same rate as Nitrate + Coal (when mining boulders), but it is used up much more quickly than Gunpowder is, as the ammo recipes demand more Lead than Gunpowder per round.

You mine lead in forest biome.

 

[Jackelmyer]

You can get all the paper you'd ever need by slicing up all the huge paper rolls in the paper mill which are a common poi.
Butcher pete, doggos, carls corn, and the bear cave in the unfinished house poi's are also good places for bones.

Buying glue is easy later game cause money doesn't have enough uses either. Just raid all the traders when they restock.

Of course I'd be fine with the occasional bone from a zombie corpse.

I've actually yet to see a paper mill. Been looking.

 

[RipClaw]

Are you saying all recipe materials should have the same rarity/availability? Cause there wouldn't be much point in recipes with multiple materials if that was the case.

How many recipes require blood bags ? How many recipes require a beaker ? How many recipes require a football helmet ? How many recipes require a flashlight ? How many recipes require a headlight ?

Usually the materials that are a certain rarity are only used in a few recipes. It was in the past even so that extra recipes were introduced to compensate for a certain shortage such as the production of oil or paper in A16.

The materials that are often used in recipes are usually available in large quantities or are easy to obtain.

Why should the component most often used in recipes suddenly only be available in limited quantities?

More repetitive than cutting wood and getting resin? MM said something about changing bone to bone fragments (with increased number) and adding them to birds/snakes as well.

You need wood anyway and trees are practically everywhere. The tree resin would simply be a by-product. You can even plant trees yourself. Many players have a tree farm at their base to quickly get large amounts of wood when needed. Animals on the other hand cannot be bred.

You have to drive the map every 5 days and visit every Doggo on the map you can find. This can take the whole day. A tree farm, on the other hand, I harvest with a chainsaw within minutes.

Therefore it is much more tedious for players to do exactly the same tour every 5 days.

And as for the information that in the future you will get bones also from vultures, snakes and rabbits, there was already a similar information.

As it became known that the zombies will no longer deliver bones, madmole has announced on twitter that the animals will give more bones in return. Since there is no significant visible difference to A16 I assume that this was not realized.

The information that in the future vultures, snakes and rabbits should provide bone fragments does not come directly from madmole but was passed on by Roland. So forgive me if I doubt a second hand piece of information if earlier statements have not been kept.

Guys, if you want to be able to craft more bullets, just say so right away

Glue is an ingredient for many things. You can't just break it down to the manufacture of ammunition or repair kits. On multiplayer servers even the production of vehicles is also a point where a lot of glue in the form of duct tape is consumed.

 

[RestInPieces]

How many recipes require blood bags ? How many recipes require a beaker ? How many recipes require a football helmet ? How many recipes require a flashlight ? How many recipes require a headlight ?
Usually the materials that are a certain rarity are only used in a few recipes. It was in the past even so that extra recipes were introduced to compensate for a certain shortage such as the production of oil or paper in A16.

The materials that are often used in recipes are usually available in large quantities or are easy to obtain.

Why should the component most often used in recipes suddenly only be available in limited quantities?

There is a fundamental difference between "limited availability" and "always available, but in limited quantities". The first is the reason why many of these recipes were introduced - the player should never stop being able to craft relatively basic things because there are no resources left. Bones belong to the second category though.

Usually the materials that are a certain rarity are only used in a few recipes.

Not sure what you mean by that.

You need wood anyway and trees are practically everywhere. The tree resin would simply be a by-product. You can even plant trees yourself. Many players have a tree farm at their base to quickly get large amounts of wood when needed. Animals on the other hand cannot be bred.
You have to drive the map every 5 days and visit every Doggo on the map you can find. This can take the whole day. A tree farm, on the other hand, I harvest with a chainsaw within minutes.

Therefore it is much more tedious for players to do exactly the same tour every 5 days.

None loves doing repetitive things, but it seems, by what you are saying, that you don't just want a non-repetitive activity to get bones, but want to get "bones" (resin) without a hassle, as a byproduct even, so that they are completely non-issue. If these dog POIs didn't exist and animal bones were increased in general, would bones then be "too random"? (Personally, I would prefer it that way.) Also, mostly irrelevant - I think that chem station output should be increased, but that it should be harder to get one.

The information that in the future vultures, snakes and rabbits should provide bone fragments does not come directly from madmole but was passed on by Roland. So forgive me if I doubt a second hand piece of information if earlier statements have not been kept.

No, you are right, MM didn't say this himself afaik so nothing is certain.

Glue is an ingredient for many things. You can't just break it down to the manufacture of ammunition or repair kits. On multiplayer servers even the production of vehicles is also a point where a lot of glue in the form of duct tape is consumed.

That's more of a reason why it shouldn't be growing on trees. It's the only "limiting factor" in many recipes atm and I believe that having most things infinitely available and just crafting them makes for a much worse experience. E.g. splint/clothes used to be nothing more than a click away - now you have to prepare a couple of splints beforehand (if you pretend the DP is bad enough to not suicide) for a broken leg and you give it a second thought before prioritizing a cloth set. I find this better than just clicking at them with no other concern and I hope most recipes were like that as well.

 

[RipClaw]

There is a fundamental difference between "limited availability" and "always available, but in limited quantities". The first is the reason why many of these recipes were introduced - the player should never stop being able to craft relatively basic things because there are no resources left. Bones belong to the second category though.

Unfortunately, glue in the game is an ingredient for the production of paper. One of the recipes to increase the availability of paper. It was of course introduced in A16 when glue was not yet something you had only limited quantities of.

Not sure what you mean by that.

By this I mean that things that are rather rare are only needed in a few recipes. And these recipes are mostly only for things you don't produce in bulk.

None loves doing repetitive things, but it seems, by what you are saying, that you don't just want a non-repetitive activity to get bones, but want to get "bones" (resin) without a hassle, as a byproduct even, so that they are completely non-issue. If these dog POIs didn't exist and animal bones were increased in general, would bones then be "too random"? (Personally, I would prefer it that way.) Also, mostly irrelevant - I think that chem station output should be increased, but that it should be harder to get one.

How did you get most of the bones in A16? Zombies were dismantled. So the bones were a by-product of the cleanup process after the horde.

It's not about what I want, it's about what's a natural way for the average player to get a raw material for glue. Using the respawn in POIs, as I and apparently madmole do, isn't a natural way in my opinion.

That's more of a reason why it shouldn't be growing on trees. It's the only "limiting factor" in many recipes atm and I believe that having most things infinitely available and just crafting them makes for a much worse experience. E.g. splint/clothes used to be nothing more than a click away - now you have to prepare a couple of splints beforehand (if you pretend the DP is bad enough to not suicide) for a broken leg and you give it a second thought before prioritizing a cloth set. I find this better than just clicking at them with no other concern and I hope most recipes were like that as well.

That you needed duct tape for splints is nothing new. This was already introduced in A16.

And in A17 the plaster cast has been added which is not only better than the splint but also only requires materials to manufacture which are available in large quantities. The only disadvantage is that it can only be produced in the chemistry station.

So nothing for on the way but definitely something you have with you on the construction site or if you loot a big church and fall from the bell tower.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Lead is only a great issue if you want to build with much bulletproof glass, and because normal glass breaks by looking at it it means if you want glass at all you will have great issues to get enough lead

 

[RestInPieces]

Unfortunately, glue in the game is an ingredient for the production of paper. One of the recipes to increase the availability of paper. It was of course introduced in A16 when glue was not yet something you had only limited quantities of.

It's true that recipe is obsolete, not only because bones are rarer, but also because paper has become virtually infinite.

By this I mean that things that are rather rare are only needed in a few recipes. And these recipes are mostly only for things you don't produce in bulk.

Why shouldn't things that you produce in bulk not have a limiter, like a rarer-than-infinite material? Don't you want to be subject to some sort of resource management? If that is the case, might as well add the ∞ on them.

How did you get most of the bones in A16? Zombies were dismantled. So the bones were a by-product of the cleanup process after the horde.

Yes, they were an infinitely available byproduct. And that was changed for several reasons, most of which I agree with.

It's not about what I want, it's about what's a natural way for the average player to get a raw material for glue. Using the respawn in POIs, as I and apparently madmole do, isn't a natural way in my opinion.

No, going through the same old POIs to look for dog spawns isn't really a natural way to get bones. I agree and as I said earlier I'd prefer if you would just look for them at random. But the solution doesn't have to be "make bones or a bone alternative infinitely available".

That you needed duct tape for splints is nothing new. This was already introduced in A16.

And? The point is it changed for the better - especially now that bones aren't infinitely available.

 

[RipClaw]

It's true that recipe is obsolete, not only because bones are rarer, but also because paper has become virtually infinite.

How should paper be unlimited in the game ? Because of the paper mill ? Once you have dismantled the rolls, the paper is gone. And you can't control that you get a quest in a paper mill to reset the building.

I did a lot of quests and none of them were in a paper mill.

Yes, they were an infinitely available byproduct. And that was changed for several reasons, most of which I agree with.

The reason bones have become so scarce is because zombies don't leave corpses. The only official reason I've heard so far is that it was made for performance reasons.

Unless you are aware of statements from developers that bones should be scarce, everything you mention as reasons is based on assumptions and speculations only.

 

[Ghostlight]

Lead is only a great issue if you want to build with much bulletproof glass, and because normal glass breaks by looking at it it means if you want glass at all you will have great issues to get enough lead

Try producing enough ammo for 3 players at gamestage 600 horde night on Insane and get back to me.

Are you saying all recipe materials should have the same rarity/availability? Cause there wouldn't be much point in recipes with multiple materials if that was the case

No I am saying these resources are the ones you will have zero of while you are swimming in excess of every other resource. Seems like the balance is off. You will literally have more than you could ever use of everything except lead, bones and brass. Do the devs want certain resources to be scarcer? Maybe. I am simply informing them of the scarcest, just in case they don't.

I agree about the lead. I gave up trying to produce my own ammo. Instead, I produce things for the trader and buy all of theirs.

We also do this. One guy (the Int spec person) goes to the Trader every 3 days very diligently. It's nowhere near enough.

 

[RestInPieces]

How should paper be unlimited in the game ? Because of the paper mill ? Once you have dismantled the rolls, the paper is gone. And you can't control that you get a quest in a paper mill.
I did a lot of quests and none of them were in a paper mill.

A lot of items give paper when you scrap them and a paper mill has obscene amounts of paper. And in the unlikely case that is not enough or rng really frowns upon you, the recipe ensures you aren't incapable of finding more paper. Was wrong of me to call it obsolete tbh.

The reason bones have become so scarce is because zombies don't leave corpses. The only official reason I've heard so far is that it was made for performance reasons.

Unless you are aware of statements from developers that bones should be scarce, everything you mention as reasons is based on assumptions and speculations only.

Even if that was their only official reason (cba to search for old posts), or their only reason in general for that matter, the end result is what counts. Bones (as well as every other item in the zombie lootlists before the change) stopped being infinitely available.

 

[RipClaw]

We also do this. One guy (the Int spec person) goes to the Trader every 3 days very diligently. It's nowhere near enough.

On the current maps you usually have only 4 or 5 traders. On average you get about 100 9 mm bullets per trader. To cover the need for 9 mm ammo from 3 players for a Gamestage 600 Horde you would need about 30 traders.

 

[RipClaw]

A lot of items give paper when you scrap them and a paper mill has obscene amounts of paper. And in the unlikely case that is not enough or rng really frowns upon you, the recipe ensures you aren't incapable of finding more paper. Was wrong of me to call it obsolete tbh.

A paper mill gives you about 2500-3000 paper. With my old A16 base that would have been just enough for 2 weeks.

I've found ways around the problem but players like Ghostlight want to do a classic base defense and I see no reason why they should be restricted in this aspect.

Even if that was their only official reason (cba to search for old posts), or their only reason in general for that matter, the end result is what counts. Bones (as well as every other item in the zombie lootlists before the change) stopped being infinitely available.

It does matter because you keep stressing that you agree with the reasons. But if there were no reasons then you can't agree with anything.

Yes it is a fact that there isn't enough bones but if that's just an unintended side effect then it should be pointed out to the developers.