PC Level gating. Why it ok for other games but not 7DTD

...and it doesn't help that the system is so convoluted you just don't know what you need for the next level...

 
...and it doesn't help that the system is so convoluted you just don't know what you need for the next level...
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So true I only have lil brain zeds ate most of it :) Does the head shot perk work with arrows it says bullets? it shows an arrow in the scull but no mention of arrows?

 
...and it doesn't help that the system is so convoluted you just don't know what you need for the next level...
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Really? I thought it was more intuitive and simple than A16.

 
Having a recipe, and all the ingredients to the recipe, being AT the right bench, and still wondering why it says I don't have the recipe is no way to go through life. =)

Now I know of course, but only via literal accident. I was cursing the issue and someone on voice discord chimed in.

(Thanks doom).

 
Unfortunately it's a pain in the ass to mod the skills back in which you gain from doing things as its currently not available for any of the skills. I'm honestly not even sure if it's possible at all.
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I was referring to modding the thresholds of the current system and not reverting it to the old way. (I.e. tweak lvl gate threshold, add/remove/change perks to make the early game more enjoyable/rewarding)

Why do people find the pre forge age boring? I have seen people comment they cant start playing the game until they have a forge. I have seen people comment about the pace of the game being slower and/or repetitive.

Answering these questions will get us closer to what is the root cause of the problem.

The level gate in itself probably wouldnt be that bad if people felt differently about the early game.

 
Here is the issue in a nutshell

For years we have been playing an unfinished game. What we had BEFORE 17 was basically end game from day one. We were strong and fast. The Pimps had not yet hooked up everything that LEADS to that end game. What 17 did was add the beginning portion of the game we have played for years.

Some people can't accept that. They want end game on Day 5 like we had. What we have now is 20 times better. You WILL get to where you were in A16. Its just that now you have to WORK to get there.

This is why they say EA is not for everyone. Things change sometimes a LOT. Previously we enjoyed a game that was actually MISSING its start and mid game. Now we have a game that will last MUCH longer before the boredom sets in.

 
Having a recipe, and all the ingredients to the recipe, being AT the right bench, and still wondering why it says I don't have the recipe is no way to go through life. =)
Now I know of course, but only via literal accident. I was cursing the issue and someone on voice discord chimed in.

(Thanks doom).
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Preach on. When doing my mod the first thing we worried about was info. No one wants to be confused. Save the cutesy localization for when you have space. Info should always be thorough.

 
Here is the issue in a nutshell
For years we have been playing an unfinished game. What we had BEFORE 17 was basically end game from day one. We were strong and fast. The Pimps had not yet hooked up everything that LEADS to that end game. What 17 did was add the beginning portion of the game we have played for years.

Some people can't accept that. They want end game on Day 5 like we had. What we have now is 20 times better. You WILL get to where you were in A16. Its just that now you have to WORK to get there.

This is why they say EA is not for everyone. Things change sometimes a LOT. Previously we enjoyed a game that was actually MISSING its start and mid game. Now we have a game that will last MUCH longer before the boredom sets in.
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You can be 100% correct but there will still be people who disagree with how they segment the game into those stages.

Ultimately there needs to be a mode (or mod) that removes all restriction to satisfy all the sandbox purists.

 
Not a fan of the level gating. It's very unrewarding of anything but tedious, safe grinding. Players should be encouraged to be active, take risks, explore and be reward proportionally.

Grinding should be a last resort for those not adventurous or lucky enough to find what they need to advance but should not be the only way. Not all of us have 46 free hours/week.

 
Previously we enjoyed a game that was actually MISSING its start and mid game.
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Indeed. The game allowed people to skip a lot of its content.

In order for progression to exist in anything, gating is needed, either with RNG, exploration, levels, attribute requirements, amount of points etc etc. It's just that here, it could have been less obvious. One reason why I wanted recipe perks to be gated through other means.

For example in Fallout, perks (which admittedly aren't as important as they are here), are gated both by level and attributes. However the system is almost seamless, so that the player doesn't even feel that he bumps on to a wall which he needs to bring down by "grinding". I am sure that they will keep refining the perk system. I do hope that overall progression rate doesn't become faster though.

 
A16 had level gating. Didn’t it? Hard to remember....
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It most certainly did and not only level, but skill gating as well, you couldn't learn perk you wanted, unless you had required skill level as well, quality Joe being dictionary example of that.

 
Here is the issue in a nutshell
For years we have been playing an unfinished game. What we had BEFORE 17 was basically end game from day one. We were strong and fast. The Pimps had not yet hooked up everything that LEADS to that end game. What 17 did was add the beginning portion of the game we have played for years.

Some people can't accept that. They want end game on Day 5 like we had. What we have now is 20 times better. You WILL get to where you were in A16. Its just that now you have to WORK to get there.

This is why they say EA is not for everyone. Things change sometimes a LOT. Previously we enjoyed a game that was actually MISSING its start and mid game. Now we have a game that will last MUCH longer before the boredom sets in.
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The boredom set in after about an hour.

 
Here is the issue in a nutshell
For years we have been playing an unfinished game. What we had BEFORE 17 was basically end game from day one. We were strong and fast. The Pimps had not yet hooked up everything that LEADS to that end game. What 17 did was add the beginning portion of the game we have played for years.

Some people can't accept that. They want end game on Day 5 like we had. What we have now is 20 times better. You WILL get to where you were in A16. Its just that now you have to WORK to get there.

This is why they say EA is not for everyone. Things change sometimes a LOT. Previously we enjoyed a game that was actually MISSING its start and mid game. Now we have a game that will last MUCH longer before the boredom sets in.
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For me, it's not THAT we are slower to progress, its HOW they went on achieving it.

Level-gates are bad. No discussion. There are 100 different ways to reach the desired end result, WITHOUT handcuffing the player by saying "not yet".

Skyrim doesn't have level-gates. Yet you aren't (without exploits) powerful from day 1.

But if you want, you could specialize in onehanded an be lvl 15 with 100 in 1h.

There is no other good game I know of that level-gates you. Because most devs know better.

 
For me, it's not THAT we are slower to progress, its HOW they went on achieving it.
Level-gates are bad. No discussion. There are 100 different ways to reach the desired end result, WITHOUT handcuffing the player by saying "not yet".

Skyrim doesn't have level-gates. Yet you aren't (without exploits) powerful from day 1.

But if you want, you could specialize in onehanded an be lvl 15 with 100 in 1h.

There is no other good game I know of that level-gates you. Because most devs know better.
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Agree on this. There can be more "discreet" ways to gate the player while keeping the same slow pace. A good example is F3/FNV. Perks there are not that pivotal as in 7DTD ofc, but they have both level requirements and attribute requirements. The system is such though, that you will almost never notice the level requirements - they are mostly seamless.

I think that making each level harder to get by lowering zombie xp (so that it's also more in line with other activities) and lowering the level lock requirements at the same time, may be a decent temporary solution, while keeping the same pace.

 
Just downgraded my install back to 16. Here's the large difference that is being missed. YOU COULD GET XP FROM ACTIONS OTHER THAN KILLING ZOMBIES! That's the main issue. 16 had skill/level gating as well, but not this bad. Plus, you could do other things and still level.

Also, just simple actions like digging and building are so much faster in 16 than 17 right from day 1.

The whole game has been brought to a crawl because you can only do 1 thing to level, and all other actions are super slow.

Plus, taking skills and items that were readily available before and putting them behind a level gating type system is not adding content.

If you took away the whole perk/skill system of 17, and then looked at what was added, it wouldn't be much. Not much actual content got added.

And don't even get me started on the abyssal trader quests which are just using the treasure hunter mechanic. Nothing new there either.

 
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Would it perhaps be a compromise to "smooth" the gates. Now the jumps are so big and noticeable. You play for a long time to get a bunch of things unlocked all at once. What if instead the following happened:

Lvl 5: you can buy perk that along with other things allows you to build a forge.

Lvl 10: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge an anvil.

Lvl 15: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge iron.

Lvl 20: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to make iron tools.

In this example you still end up with the same "end gate" but you have the feeling of success along the way. I could be burning items into my forges at level 7. I could make iron bars to repair that axe I found at level 17. The gates would be more gradual and the game might feel more fluid. Thoughts?

 
Would it perhaps be a compromise to "smooth" the gates. Now the jumps are so big and noticeable. You play for a long time to get a bunch of things unlocked all at once. What if instead the following happened:
Lvl 5: you can buy perk that along with other things allows you to build a forge.

Lvl 10: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge an anvil.

Lvl 15: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge iron.

Lvl 20: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to make iron tools.

In this example you still end up with the same "end gate" but you have the feeling of success along the way. I could be burning items into my forges at level 7. I could make iron bars to repair that axe I found at level 17. The gates would be more gradual and the game might feel more fluid. Thoughts?
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If it's the same level of gating to the "end game" (personally wouldn't have it any other way, I enjoy the slow pacing), I believe that fragmenting the perks would work towards alleviating things a little compared to now.

 
If it's the same level of gating to the "end game" (personally wouldn't have it any other way, I enjoy the slow pacing), I believe that fragmenting the perks would work towards alleviating things a little compared to now.
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Bringing up fragmenting reminds me of the fun I had with Path of Exile's skill tree. Doesn't have to be that complicated and it was a grind but at least my character was continuously progressing in my chosen build, along with a whole other ton of skills and buffs.

At least 7dtd isn't something like F76 needing rng cards to level skills, wtf.

 
I much prefer the slower progression. It means we can play for weeks rather than days before we've done everything and are bored

 
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