PC Level gating. Why it ok for other games but not 7DTD

They just want everything handed to them on day 1, and not have to actually do anything different, lol.
No. They want to quickly gather the resources they need to craft the tools they need to efficiently gather more resources to craft upgraded tools they need to survive. As quickly as possible, or as slowly as they choose, with no artificial level gates impeding progress. Like Minecraft. Like this game used to be a couple years ago before all this level gating nonsense.

 
Check your OWN facts -- where's your evidence everyone hates the level gating/improved AI/digging/no more trash-ass loot from zombies?
LOL. You quoted me and none of what I said had anything specific to this build. Nice try.

 
I think the main problem is stopping the character build that I have in my mind through artificial walls. Yes make us work/grind earn xp/points, but having got those I still can't choose the path I want. It really hurts replayability trying different builds, it's still possible by all means but feels a lot more restrictive.

I mean by end game, I'm guessing, we're all going to be walking gods but give us that freedom on how to get there. Eg, I'm really interested in an archer build, the reload speed and other high end perks looks tasty. But at certain stages the game says, No! That's enough archery progress for u.

I thought it was just the haters saying most builds will be cookie cutters, but it's starting to feel a bit like that.

It just doesn't feel right in this style of game. I know a lot of other open world games have level gates but in an open voxel survival u do anything to survive, u need that freedom of choice.

 
No actually. Its not "because I dislike it".This is basic gamedesign.
Good luck explaining that to the pimp worshippers. lol

I wonder how many of them ever wrote a game and how many can see all the bad design, coding and amateurish results.

Old bugs return, new bugs appear but man, it is the bees knees.

These people are just impressed with something they know nothing about while people that do know how it works are shaking their heads in embarrassment.

If this was my game, I would be too embarrassed to release it in this state.

They are not, they think they made a diamond and proudly show it off getting pissy when people call their diamond what it really is.

I played for two game days, up to day 2 12:00 game time, when an air drop landed outside the map and I quit.

In that time I had encountered numerous bugs, like a road going through water with water walls on each side.

My latest Youtube vid is called "They call me Mozes" because I parted the waters just like in the bible.

Now tell me this has been tested extensively and I will tell you, you are a liar.

 
Good luck explaining that to the pimp worshippers. lolI wonder how many of them ever wrote a game and how many can see all the bad design, coding and amateurish results.

Old bugs return, new bugs appear but man, it is the bees knees.

These people are just impressed with something they know nothing about while people that do know how it works are shaking their heads in embarrassment.

If this was my game, I would be too embarrassed to release it in this state.

They are not, they think they made a diamond and proudly show it off getting pissy when people call their diamond what it really is.

I played for two game days, up to day 2 12:00 game time, when an air drop landed outside the map and I quit.

In that time I had encountered numerous bugs, like a road going through water with water walls on each side.

My latest Youtube vid is called "They call me Mozes" because I parted the waters just like in the bible.

Now tell me this has been tested extensively and I will tell you, you are a liar.
Wow so much hate. Can u show us your non-amateurish game you're so proud. I think you'd have to be stupid not to release a game with 7dtd financial success.

For someone so knowledgeable in programming you buy an early access game not expecting bugs and balance issues?

Quitting because a day2 drop landed outside the map?! U poor thing, however much I hate the term that's why 'snowflake' was introduced.

You must live in a gold laden path fairy tale world cuz the world I live in:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&biw=1536&bih=710&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=am_6W5T0OIGb8wXPn4OoCw&q=water+logged+road+construction&oq=water+logged+road+construction&gs_l=img.3...68294.70252..70500...0.0..0.149.1101.10j2......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i7i5i30j0i8i7i30.MviyPwuqDRk

But I have to admit you've got me on TFP worshipping, I thought I kept my gold shrines of TFP well hidden, dam.

 
No puppy.

It is not hate that drives us. It is the reluctance of people to SEE when TFPs fk up.

Its an EA title... for far over 5 years.

Yes they did a lot. But this is more like Minecraft, where they add stuff and change stuff. They never even try to fix it.

If they REALLY want to hit stable in the next 2 years, I'll come back to you (obviously not because I will have forgotten by then) and show you all the bad game design, bugs and other atrocities that are in the game still.

Look. We like 7d2d. But A17 was a step back in most categories. Mostly in the sandbox part.

I myself play on insane with less loot and 64 zombies, so dont tell me I want it "easier". I simply want the game to make sense, to give me freedom and challenge me.

And TFPs have ignored all and every advice to them. They didn't try to show us why we were wrong, they just ignored it and let "fanboys" defend them.

No I am not a professional gamedev. But I know the most basic concepts of gaming.

Would you like a dev to only allow you to play 30 minutes a day, because afterwards he can boast about "days and days of enjoyment"?

Because this is what levelgating is. It is not a good designchoice. And there are lots of those choices in A17.

Why did they descide midway of A16 to upgrade unity? Now performance is tanking, graphics are subpar (even on the highest settings), there are visual glitches, bugs that count death twice and much more.

Don'T forget that now Vultures are hummingbird creatures who do not care for momentum but slow down to follow you, instead of divebombing, zombies not beeing able to hit you while walking, buildings hovering in midair or beeing 2+ blocks deep inside the earth and SO MUCH MORE.

Yes it is experimental. But if you think all that will be fixed by 17.X then you must be new to TFPs.

 
Enemy progression

In games, more you play, enemies become stronger with each stage, and you need advance your skills all time. If there's no restrictions, you get ultimate skill on level 10 and wipe out everything with only finger move. But what we see in 7DTD? You should meet exactly same zombies you saw when you spawn in all your playthrough! Yes, irradiated, yes cops, but 99% are the same!
But... that's exactly how it is in 7d.

The longer you play, the less you die and the higher level you have, more and stronger zombies will come.

You don't need reinforced concrete by 7th day and you will have it by 70th.

Before we had instant jump from early game to end game, ignoring everything in between, including intermediete iron tools.

Right now all of that has a point and if you REALLY believe you have to level up asap, just kill Zs.

 
But only because it was badly balanced. Not because the system was flawed.

You could have solved that so many other ways.

Like... right now. You know what would happen if the levelcap wasn't there anymore and concrete took 7 in intelligence and steel 10 (and maybe more perks)?

People who WANT steel can have that on day 7. But they cant farm the ressources, they cant fight and they cant loot.

If you removed the levelgating and gave us one of the many other solutions i have proposed before (most of them super easy to implement), players have the choice to become unstoppable killing machines, but have no defense and no looting, be an awesome looter and trader, but still be handicapped in mining and fighting and so on.

THAT would be a choice.

Right now its:

"oh you want to be a better fighter? Too bad you are not level 10 yet. Come back later."

instead of

"oh you want to be a better fighter? Okay then. But then you cant have better defenses, better food or suck at mining and looting"

THIS is the whole crux of the issue. Give us choices. Dont make the choices for us.

 
Level gating

  • restricts gameplay
  • makes the game boring
  • forces you to follow a set path
  • breaks immersion
  • makes the game repetitive
  • doesn't reward skilled players
  • it's an artifact that ruins the experience

 
No puppy.
It is not hate that drives us. It is the reluctance of people to SEE when TFPs fk up.

Its an EA title... for far over 5 years.

Yes they did a lot. But this is more like Minecraft, where they add stuff and change stuff. They never even try to fix it.

If they REALLY want to hit stable in the next 2 years, I'll come back to you (obviously not because I will have forgotten by then) and show you all the bad game design, bugs and other atrocities that are in the game still.

Look. We like 7d2d. But A17 was a step back in most categories. Mostly in the sandbox part.

I myself play on insane with less loot and 64 zombies, so dont tell me I want it "easier". I simply want the game to make sense, to give me freedom and challenge me.

And TFPs have ignored all and every advice to them. They didn't try to show us why we were wrong, they just ignored it and let "fanboys" defend them.

No I am not a professional gamedev. But I know the most basic concepts of gaming.

Would you like a dev to only allow you to play 30 minutes a day, because afterwards he can boast about "days and days of enjoyment"?

Because this is what levelgating is. It is not a good designchoice. And there are lots of those choices in A17.

Why did they descide midway of A16 to upgrade unity? Now performance is tanking, graphics are subpar (even on the highest settings), there are visual glitches, bugs that count death twice and much more.

Don'T forget that now Vultures are hummingbird creatures who do not care for momentum but slow down to follow you, instead of divebombing, zombies not beeing able to hit you while walking, buildings hovering in midair or beeing 2+ blocks deep inside the earth and SO MUCH MORE.

Yes it is experimental. But if you think all that will be fixed by 17.X then you must be new to TFPs.
At least u give some reasons why u are frustrated, KeiraR makes it out like TFP assaulted his/her grandma.

Oh I'm with u on the level gating being a joke. But to say TFP fkd up is a little drastic. Of course its a buggy mess, it plays clunky as hell, input isn't responsive, things are floating, hit boxes are all over the place, zombies can't run in a straight line, the list goes on.

But u know what, despite all that ppl are still enjoying the game for 100s if not 1000s of hours. How many games can do that? U say yourself u like 7dtd and if you've been around a long time and u keep coming back, then they must be doing something right. Buggy? hell yes! Fkd up? I don't think so.

Some of the things u complain about leaves me scratching my head:

Why update to the new Unity engine now?

Unity consistently updates it is not under TFP control, they upgraded to Unity 2017 then 2018. And if unless they specifically stated in kickstarter plans they would update to the latest engine, they could have left the game in older engines. But we get the free update which adds new feature possibilities and mods and adds longevity to the game.

Would you like a dev to only allow you to play 30 minutes a day?

How is 7dtd stopping u play after 30minutes? Level gate is cr** agreed, but stopping u play after 30mins? What?!

The game has been in EA for far too long?

Look your complaints are all subjective matter, where is the official rule that EA games must be released at a certain time frame? U have patience issues, it's a video game not life or death. I couldn't care less if TFP took 20yrs to finish, currently I'm still playing, others are playing, haters are playing, I seriously doubt they have fkd up.

I don't know who told u or where u got the idea all bugs will be fixed in 17.x coz I certainly know many things won't be fixed even in gold.

Some of u think TFP has to cater the game to your demands, it's never going to happen. They make it as balanced as possible, even though it's nowhere near close, and then you mod the game to your liking that's it. If some of you think it's that easy to make a voxel based game with 7dtd played hours I seriously would like to see some of the results.

Oh look RDR2 has floating horses, man they fkd up big time.

 
Up until a16, the long-standing criticism of 7d2d was that is was all good except for the end-game, where people just ran out of things to do or a reason to go on. I think The Fun Pimps were misguided in trying to fix this by making the early and mid games such a long grind, you'd give up playing on your own before noticing there was little to no end-game content.
This!!

There are a ton of things tfp could do for endgame instead of prolonging early and midgame.

Dungeons packed with radiated zombies that on death will give you 7 days death penalty, destroy your bag and then GPS to your base and wreck it.

If you survive you get a guaranteed rare drop!

The possibilities and difficulty are endless. But instead we got levelgates, low stamina and super zombies that only bedrock can stop.

I personally dont like level gates because it breaks immersion. Like you have to be age 20 to use that!

Gating on the other hand, I have no problem with.

And you guys that gives comments like "they just want things for free and not work for it."

Show me a single post of someone saying everything should be free from gates. No rng, no xp, no perks! I haven't seen a single one.

Back to topic.

The way I see it is the issue of WHAT you gate and the PROGRESS to the gate.

If TFP would gate the ability to use guns behind lvl and nerf club and bow even more. Because "they need to work for it". I think we would have an even bigger ♥♥♥♥storm.

See! An ak-47 is as much an endgame item as concrete block. One is gated the other one isn't. Why?

And now what I feel most important is the fun factor of the progress to the gate as OP stated.

I have no problems with gates if they feel meaningful. Like looting a whole city to find parts to a gun, or a workbench.

but since killing zombies is the only feasible way to farm xp. This might not be as fun for everyone.

Let's face it. Forge is the key for builders. Weapons are key for combat players.

Basebuilders draw the shortest straw this alpha.

 
Levelgating is a tough subject for sure. Lots of viewpoints and angles.

For me, the gated forge hasnt been so bad because I dont mind scavenging and exploring early on (vs building). Some of the most thrilling moments for me has been when I am under powered and still was able to overcome difficult situations. (SP, Coop). I also dont mind for the game to be slow as I'm not in a big hurry to blaze through the content.

I do realize others will enjoy other parts of the game more and will want to get to that point quickly (thus the angst). Multiplayer makes this even more complicated.

And there lies the challenge. How do you balance an open world survival game with players with varying different play styles and preferences?

On one hand, levelgating limits players to use the low tier equipment for a specific amount of time (a good thing) where in the past it could largely be skipped (a bad thing).

On the other hand, it creates an artificial barrier that is immersion breaking and currently not super intuitive.

If the general concern is the low tier is boring and not fun, the focus should be more on how to change that, not removing the gate which is not the root cause of the problem.

 
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Very true Laz!

That's at least how I interpret the criticism. How to make early- mid- and late game fun, challenging and rewarding!

 
At least u give some reasons why u are frustrated, KeiraR makes it out like TFP assaulted his/her grandma.
Oh I'm with u on the level gating being a joke. But to say TFP fkd up is a little drastic. Of course its a buggy mess, it plays clunky as hell, input isn't responsive, things are floating, hit boxes are all over the place, zombies can't run in a straight line, the list goes on.

Thanks for understanding. That is more then most ppl here do :D

But u know what, despite all that ppl are still enjoying the game for 100s if not 1000s of hours. How many games can do that? U say yourself u like 7dtd and if you've been around a long time and u keep coming back, then they must be doing something right. Buggy? hell yes! Fkd up? I don't think so.

there have already been quite some ppl here who have said that they played for 1000s of hours and stopped A17 after only 2-5h. Not saying that this will happen to all, but there certainly is SOMETHING

Some of the things u complain about leaves me scratching my head:

Why update to the new Unity engine now?

Unity consistently updates it is not under TFP control, they upgraded to Unity 2017 then 2018. And if unless they specifically stated in kickstarter plans they would update to the latest engine, they could have left the game in older engines. But we get the free update which adds new feature possibilities and mods and adds longevity to the game.

Its not about "now" in A17, its "now" after A17 was already 4+months under development. It wasn't planned carefully. At least not from what was made public (which obviously, not every thing is)

Would you like a dev to only allow you to play 30 minutes a day?

How is 7dtd stopping u play after 30minutes? Level gate is cr** agreed, but stopping u play after 30mins? What?!

It was an allegory. So saying "we don't allow you to advance, until you have reached level X" to prolong the game is the same as saying "only 30 minutes a day" but "content for days". Its a cheap way to cut corners and doesn't actually fix the issue. Sorry if thats not completly understandable. Not sure how else to describe.

The game has been in EA for far too long?

Look your complaints are all subjective matter, where is the official rule that EA games must be released at a certain time frame? U have patience issues, it's a video game not life or death. I couldn't care less if TFP took 20yrs to finish, currently I'm still playing, others are playing, haters are playing, I seriously doubt they have fkd up.

No obviously its not "an official rule". But if politicians say "its on our agenda to do 'x'" but don't do it within 4-8 years, don't you feel cheated, even though they didn't specify WHEN they would do it?

I don't know who told u or where u got the idea all bugs will be fixed in 17.x coz I certainly know many things won't be fixed even in gold.

Oh lots of people argue that "its just EA, so bugs are to be expected", when this game has been in development so much longer then other, better functioning games out there. While it might have to do something with unity or voxel or whatever, its still something that should be talked about.

Some of u think TFP has to cater the game to your demands, it's never going to happen. They make it as balanced as possible, even though it's nowhere near close, and then you mod the game to your liking that's it. If some of you think it's that easy to make a voxel based game with 7dtd played hours I seriously would like to see some of the results.

And some of "you" think TFPs are perfect and the game is so awesome, no matter how stupid and objectively bad their descicions are. There is always a part of any group that doesn't use logic and just uses feels and repeats other peoples lines. I'm not. ;)

Oh look RDR2 has floating horses, man they fkd up big time.

Do they also restrict things you do? Like the region you can go to until you have done "x amount of quests" or something? Or did they retcon their genre from an open world rpg to a sandbox shooter, just because that was what they listed in "genre" on steam? :D
I get your points, I hope you get mine... I still feel A17 is a major fkup. Released to late and in a state that is barely playable and unbalanced with mechanics that have been called bad since the dawn of gamedevelopment. :/

 
At first I was ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh (Tina) over the level gates, but as I played more, looted more, and zombie killed more it was not so much a concern. Without getting right to the big stuff like a forge or bench, I actually played the game in survival mode. Looting, scouting, etc. Quite fun and scary!

Now what really, and I mean REALLY bugs me, is this stamina slowness issue. Why do I have to eat 12 deers' worth of meat in an hour to keep my stamina up, and why does it drop so fast?! Water should affect but not 1 -1, and food should only affect when hungry (like under 50), but running across a room shouldn't make me starving and thirsty and half my stamina gone forever until I eat that whole boar.

Someone in a post somewhere mentioned its like playing in a thick watery soup and that is exactly how it feels. Makes no sense, and everything I am doing at any moment seem tedious.

 
Nah, spend your points as you get them. I spent a point every level, and when I reached 20 I was able to get the INT and perks which allowed me to craft iron tools/forge, and I've been able to place points in cooking/heavy armor/perception/archery/Boom Headshot/Endurance/Agility/Cardio/miner 69er(and the other 2 resource perks I forgot their names)/the wrenching perk.
I was referring to using a different gating system that allows more customized leveling, rather than player levels.

 
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@Viktoriusiii

I do get where you're coming from and I think most ppl will agree with the problems and bugs in the game. For me anyway it's not defending TFP no matter what, I'm just not affected by the things that put u and others off the game. I enjoy the game for what it offers that other games don't. I luv survival, minecraft and walking dead (tv), put those together u have 7dtd.

I'm not bothered about graphics, look at all the pretty AAA titles that last no longer than 10hours, no voxel, no RWG, no freedom to build anything. I'm not bothered it took 1.5yrs to A17, I still enjoyed A16 all that time, it's not like the world stopped spinning waiting for A17.

Obviously we have different views to what a fkd up game is. What I don't understand is how some of u can say u used to like the game, but now it's fkd up. At its core it's still a sandbox survival game.

+ What because of level gate? Annoying as hell but game breaking? Not for me.

+ Because some water doesn't look right? You won't play the game because some water doesn't look right?!

+ KeiraR quit because a drop box landed in the outer zone on day 2, you're tellng me the whole game is completely unplayable because they couldn't get some cans of food and some weapons? The rest of the game is now completely broken because of this? Can u even get a drop box on day 2 wtf?!

U might think ppl are defending/worshipping TFP when they keep repeating early access/experimental. There's a reason to keep mentioning it, I don't know TFP and I don't know how they work, but generally if it's not a game or system breaking bug it doesn't get prioritized, because nothing is finalized. There's simply no reason to fix something that might not make the cut. If they've removed or changed something that pissed u off it's understandable, they've fkd up my beloved NVG. But the the rest of the game is still enjoyable.

7dtd does a lot of things right and some ppl enjoy it, there is no objective logic that u can try to conjure that can devalue what we find fun. It's all subjective. U can say u don't like the direction TFP are going fine, I suggest mod the hell out of the game to your liking, some of the mods out there have astounding content. And u might be thinking, no why the hell should i do the work TFP should've done in the first place?!

Look at TFP adding digging zombies, the vile uproar thrown at them. 7dtd isn't a shareholding company, it's their game they aren't going to please everyone's demands, they have no obligation to. Something is keeping u attached to the game or you still wouldn't be in the forums, so mod it.

 
If the dev's cant find a good balance of perks, skills, and gates, I am sure the community will. That's the beauty of this new framework, it is fully moddable.

Perhaps the dev's will even borrow the communities modded skill/perk tree if it does a better job balancing the different play styles. :)

 
If the dev's cant find a good balance of perks, skills, and gates, I am sure the community will. That's the beauty of this new framework, it is fully moddable.
Perhaps the dev's will even borrow the communities modded skill/perk tree if it does a better job balancing the different play styles. :)
Unfortunately it's a pain in the ass to mod the skills back in which you gain from doing things as its currently not available for any of the skills. I'm honestly not even sure if it's possible at all.

 
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