PC Less weapon/tool/gear crafting

[Jihh]

Crafting could be the best way for specific items or item groups. But it should not make the game into something where you can plan your progress from beginning to end.

Actually drops are too reliable atm. If they weren't I would be able to craft better stuff. So my progress is even faster than I planned it to be. I'd love to not be able to completely plan my progress and have my crafting skills to at least get some stuff safe, while hoping the rest will drop. But as it is now, the progress is planable.

Offtopic:

Spoiler

By getting leves in better barter you get discount in the vending machines and since they replenish every day, you have a verry reliable foodsource. So bet better barter and "farm" the traider and the vending machines

Yes, Lucky Looter and Better Barter and you are done. Buying all my food from vending machines feels cheap, but since any other food has the risk of food poisoning, that's the way I go. On my second morning I wanted to quickly eat a snack before I go out, so I don't have to carry any food with me. I got food poisoning droping my stamina to ~25. So I had to eat three more bacon and eggs to be back at where I started. That was all the food I had. So the next day I used the vending machine and didn't stop. I still do farming, I still hunt game and I still gather eggs, because I like to do that part of the game, but all that stuff gets into an extra chest, because I don't use it.

You'll know instantly the moment you'll start playing multiplayer.Drops and traders/vending machines are fine for solo, but a group will not survive on cans alone.

I started a new game with two friends today, after I opened this thread. We made it to day 8 and haven't eaten anything besides canned food. We have three vending machines in less than 300m distance (two near to each other, the third at the trader). We've also found three additional vending machines in less than 500m distance, but we don't want to spend all money on food, so we don't use those.

Currently we have enough food for 3-4 more days and have enough tea to fill a pool with it. With a bigger group you will need more vending machines (I guess about one per person), but then again you just need one player to visit all vending machines first thing in the morning. That's less work than hunting enough game for everyone to eat.

In a third game I started, but played for just two days, I had a fire station as my base. There are already two vending machines in. With a trader nearby you are completely set as a three man group.

 

[Ghostlight]

Day 13 and I have level 6 Pump Shotgun, AK and Pistol, and level 5 most Steel Tools. All found in the world. Balanced?

Also I can swing a level 5 Steel Pick all day with zero Stamina issues having only 3 points in Sexy Rex. Balanced?

 

[beHypE]

Same experience here. And that is actually ONLY if you decide to heavily invest from the get go in a specific item type, in order to keep up with found loot. Every type of gun has its own specialization which makes it so you can actually only keep up the crafting with the looting for one specific item type. For all the rest you simply won't ever craft any sort of item because it would be way overshadowed by what you'll have found by then.

A first step into the right direction could be to lower the perk requirement for quality by one. Right now the first perk doesn't even grant you any quality boost. You're still crafting level 1 stuff and it takes you an additional 2 points to actually craft level 2. From a strategic point of view that is probably never a good idea unless you plan on specializing. Being able to craft level 2 stuff if you invest one point, along with some damage boosts, would make crafting tremendously more appealing early game, until you find good stuff at higher gamestages.

To compensate we should be able to find packs of 3-6 parts a decent amount of the time, while finding fully functional items a bit less often.

Finally, crafted items should have a randomized range and i'd argue for a "1/4 to 3/4 range", making a crafted item always at least a decent version but never one of the best.

It would at least bring back that "makeshift" phase of the game where you try to get a forge running and scramble some parts together in order to craft some low level tools & weapons as a decent starter pack. The part system should be such a huge part of the game to be honest, when you think about it it's the best of two worlds, you get to loot AND you get to craft !

 

[Jihh]

No, it makes crafters actually leave their cozy cave.
Also, everyone is a crafter in this alpha, crafting perks IMPROVE weapons, tools and armor effectiveness, they are ALWAYS useful.

You also aren't getting showered with purples all the time.

Uhm yeah. I don't need weapons and armor to stay in a cozy cave, but to get out and do stuff.

As I said earlier, I don't want to craft my whole gear and actually enjoy finding most of it. But I'd love to craft at least those items I'm specialized in. I'd love to craft my shiny new weapon, after farming materials for some time, go into a big building and smash zombies with it. But instead I go in and change gear every few meters, since something better drops. I don't know, it doesn't feel rewarding at all. Where is my contribution in being lucky?

If I were managing a shortage, in a way that my gear is always just a few zombies away from breaking and I would have to use whatever I get and try to save something powerful for some harder rooms, then I'd have some contribution in getting the managing done, but that isn't the situation we have. We have an oversupply of weapon, tools and armor, so my contribution is comparing tooltips.

I'd love to see a better balance betweend found and crafted gear.

Regarding crafting perks improving weapon damage: Currently I get 260% headshot damage from agility, and +150% damage from hidden strikes and +40% from archery. I could've put those four points in perception and lucky looter and probably would have even better gear now (in almost all slots). With 5 points in archery (I'm still at 4) you could get 3 in lucky looter. The damage on it's own doesn't stand up to lucky looter. At least not in early and mid game when talent points are scarce.

If those talent points would help me in getting a better weapon and thus even more damage, they would be way more worthwhile.

But as I also said before, it's not just the talent points. It's also the whole mechanic that gets devalued. What's the point of adding all those weapon parts, if you don't craft any weapon at all?

Now please don't anyone get me wrong. I'm pretty confident that TFP is on the same page and want perks and mechanics be valuable. It's probably hard to balance and they had more important stuff to do. So I'm not complaining that the balance between found and crafted gear is off in the current version. I'm just sharing my experience to see if others have the same experience and so that TFP get some feedback on that balance.

 

[Feycat]

No, it makes crafters actually leave their cozy cave.
Also, everyone is a crafter in this alpha, crafting perks IMPROVE weapons, tools and armor effectiveness, they are ALWAYS useful.

You also aren't getting showered with purples all the time.

You literally just proved my point. Being a crafter is no longer a viable playstyle in multiplayer.

 

[Katitof]

You literally just proved my point. Being a crafter is no longer a viable playstyle in multiplayer.

And why would it be?

To be a "crafter" as in the same sense of previous alphas, you would have to deep specc into ALL attributes.

A18 crafter makes traps, electricity, vehicles.

Weapons armor and tools are NOT A18 crafters role.

As viable as any other playstyle does not equal "no longer viable in multiplayer".

In fact, its even more viable then it was previously, because now you actually have something personal to use in combat too.

If you want to be int drone that never leaves own cave, stay in A17, which allows you to make everything as long as your cave is deep enough.

 

[beHypE]

And why would it be?To be a "crafter" as in the same sense of previous alphas, you would have to deep specc into ALL attributes.

A18 crafter makes traps, electricity, vehicles.

Weapons armor and tools are NOT A18 crafters role.

As viable as any other playstyle does not equal "no longer viable in multiplayer".

In fact, its even more viable then it was previously, because now you actually have something personal to use in combat too.

If you want to be int drone that never leaves own cave, stay in A17, which allows you to make everything as long as your cave is deep enough.

The problem is even when specialized you mostly never craft the weapons you're specialized in. You need to both have the adequate perk level AND the required parts, and that happening before actually finding the same quality gear is very unlikely.

It gets even worse in MP when you share your stuff with friends, if 2 or more of you happen to spec in the same weapons.

 

[Kalarro]

I agree, I missed going out to find recipes in a17, but now crafting is almost useless. You just find everything already built, why get parts + perks. Sure, luck may do so you still get something sooner by unlocking a recipe and finding the parts. But first, its unlikely with actual loot rates and second, even so spending perks for it looks like a waste since you will soon loot it anyway.

Then again, I like crafting so much that I prefered the 1-600 quality mass crafting, so my opinion on this matter may be far from what they want to achieve

 

[Khulkhuum]

My personal idea on the whole crafting vs looting:

1. Make parts available in looting. I mostly find whole weapons and tools, which is a good option, but if i wanted to craft into something i perked into, i can't before finding a weapon/tool and scrapping it. This way, if i find any parts i will be able to simply make what i need, when not finding it. Even considering it's worse than what i would find, it's better than not having anything like that. Additionally, finding parts is lore friendly - someone once deposited a weapon, but it due to apocalypse it got damaged and only parts remain.

1a. Make parts not only available, but dominant. Having parts more likely to happen than an actual tool/weapon would benefit the more RNG based gameplays.

2. Lower the required parts amount on higher levels or lower the difference between tiers of a particular weapon. Considering we won't be swimming in parts anytime soon and the only chance to have parts is to dismantle full products. This goes in pair with point #1, even considering we have one set of parts for all Grade 2 weapons, Grade 2 tools, Grade 3 weapons, Grade 3 tools, etc.

3. Allow the possibility of repairing a weapon/tool using specified parts, not repair kits. Make this an alternative or shift towards it, making parts more vital and repair kits less so. This could be explained with some tool/weapon parts being worn out, so you need more/new parts to repair it. Additionally, this would make usage of the increased amounts of parts found as mentioned in point #1.

Sounds good or not?

 

[Kalarro]

3. Allow the possibility of repairing a weapon/tool using specified parts, not repair kits. Make this an alternative or shift towards it, making parts more vital and repair kits less so. This could be explained with some tool/weapon parts being worn out, so you need more/new parts to repair it. Additionally, this would make usage of the increased amounts of parts found as mentioned in point #1.

That would achieve the contrary of what we are talking about. Right now looting is too useful vs crafting. If you now repair with parts, also repairing is made by looting.

Maybe the needed change is that you cant repair a weapon/tool you have not perked into. Or at least it is much less efficient. SO you dont just find one and that's it, you need to keep finding them or perk into it for repairing. Yes, maybe making repairing the perked tools/weapon more efficient would make the perks more valuable.

 

[Khulkhuum]

That would achieve the contrary of what we are talking about. Right now looting is too useful vs crafting. If you now repair with parts, also repairing is made by looting.
Maybe the needed change is that you cant repair a weapon/tool you have not perked into. Or at least it is much less efficient. SO you dont just find one and that's it, you need to keep finding them or perk into it for repairing. Yes, maybe making repairing the perked tools/weapon more efficient would make the perks more valuable.

I could argue the same with repair kits. You either make Glue -> Duct Tape -> Repair Kit or find it. Some people use it more than anything, but like i mentioned introducing an alternative to using only Repair Kits. Perhaps you can use either a Repair Kit or Grade 2 Weapon Kit (crafted from Grade 2 Weapon parts and something else than Duct Tape)?

 

[Carl_Bar]

First of all crafting isn't replaced, only crafting of weapons and armor.
Personally I like it how it is at the moment. Crafting weapons and armor is merely a safety valve if you can't find a good weapon of your specialization, but otherwise the weapons you use can be relatively random. This creates the need to adapt. One playthrough you have to depend on the tier2 weapon for a long time, the next you have your tier3 early, the next you might even rely and put some points into a weapon of a different attribute because it is just too good. That the game is providing these hard choices is excellent and would be lost if you could find weapon parts readily.

For me crafting versus scavenging works best when they don't step on each others feet. Crafting could be the best way for specific items or item groups. But it should not make the game into something where you can plan your progress from beginning to end. For example specific mods could be very seldom in loot but the recipes drop in normal frequency or are given out by books.

Except crafting weapons and armour is a massive, (i'd arguse majority), slice of the crafting pie. It's a huge section of the game systems. The entire point of moving the crafting of various weapons and armours to their perks was so that you can spec into a given weapon without having to also spec into int to craft it. When you could remove something entirely from the game and it would make no diffrance to the gameplay 99% of the time you know you've got a problem because it means whatever you could remove is non-functional.

Also one of the entire points of the perk rework was to allow people to build their characters in a wider variety of viable ways. Having a system where looting completely dictates what you have to spec into completely defeats the point of that as your choices are dictated by what you can loot.

 

[beHypE]

Except crafting weapons and armour is a massive, (i'd arguse majority), slice of the crafting pie. It's a huge section of the game systems. The entire point of moving the crafting of various weapons and armours to their perks was so that you can spec into a given weapon without having to also spec into int to craft it. When you could remove something entirely from the game and it would make no diffrance to the gameplay 99% of the time you know you've got a problem because it means whatever you could remove is non-functional.
Also one of the entire points of the perk rework was to allow people to build their characters in a wider variety of viable ways. Having a system where looting completely dictates what you have to spec into completely defeats the point of that as your choices are dictated by what you can loot.

Very well said.

 

[Khulkhuum]

Except crafting weapons and armour is a massive, (i'd arguse majority), slice of the crafting pie. It's a huge section of the game systems. The entire point of moving the crafting of various weapons and armours to their perks was so that you can spec into a given weapon without having to also spec into int to craft it. When you could remove something entirely from the game and it would make no diffrance to the gameplay 99% of the time you know you've got a problem because it means whatever you could remove is non-functional.
Also one of the entire points of the perk rework was to allow people to build their characters in a wider variety of viable ways. Having a system where looting completely dictates what you have to spec into completely defeats the point of that as your choices are dictated by what you can loot.

This is also why i want to have parts to be able to be easily looted. Without the perks they are only worthy to be sold (just like any higher tier weapon you don't perk into), but currently can only obtain them from scrapping found weapons or rarely finding at a trader. It's way different to know how to craft (know the recipe) but don't have materials due to RNG, compared to having enough materials, but not knowing what to do with them.

 

[HungryZombie]

As long as there is nothing gated behind high level crafting perks I have no problem with any adjustments made. You should not be forced to craft, and yet crafters need a reason to perk into it.

Tough job to balance indeed but if it can be done I think it would make for the greatest game.

 

[fragtzack]

Agree with OP, the crafting->looting balance is out of whack.

Seems the only thing that I craft is ammo + food + water.

 

[meganoth]

Except crafting weapons and armour is a massive, (i'd arguse majority), slice of the crafting pie. It's a huge section of the game systems. The entire point of moving the crafting of various weapons and armours to their perks was so that you can spec into a given weapon without having to also spec into int to craft it. When you could remove something entirely from the game and it would make no diffrance to the gameplay 99% of the time you know you've got a problem because it means whatever you could remove is non-functional.
Also one of the entire points of the perk rework was to allow people to build their characters in a wider variety of viable ways. Having a system where looting completely dictates what you have to spec into completely defeats the point of that as your choices are dictated by what you can loot.

I assume that it is near impossible to not find or buy quality 1 weapons of any type regularily. So eventually you will always have the ability to craft a good weapon of your specialization if you haven't found any. It is just a matter of time, sometimes less, sometimes more.

I think it is part of the survival package that you decide on some plan and sometimes everything works in your favor and other times you have a hard time and you struggle and have to adapt somewhat. The game isn't unplayable difficult if you have bad luck and have to run around with a quality 1 weapon in the second week for example. You could adapt by relying more on the other weapon of your speccialization or buying more ammo early on to account for the higher ammo consumption.

We just have to agree to disagree about the importance of crafting, for me crafting weapons and armor is just too dependable for a game that is as replayable as this one. Crafting is fine if you want to play a game once. Crafting is a pest if you want to play a "new" game with every restart (even though with the abilities you now have potentially 5 "new" games before it repeats.

 

[Carl_Bar]

You should not be forced to craft, and yet crafters need a reason to perk into it.

This so much.

This is also why i want to have parts to be able to be easily looted. Without the perks they are only worthy to be sold (just like any higher tier weapon you don't perk into), but currently can only obtain them from scrapping found weapons or rarely finding at a trader. It's way different to know how to craft (know the recipe) but don't have materials due to RNG, compared to having enough materials, but not knowing what to do with them.

I completely agree availability of appropriate parts is an issue. Whilst consolidating them was IMO a great move i think there are still too many types.

I assume that it is near impossible to not find or buy quality 1 weapons of any type regularily. So eventually you will always have the ability to craft a good weapon of your specialization if you haven't found any. It is just a matter of time, sometimes less, sometimes more.
I think it is part of the survival package that you decide on some plan and sometimes everything works in your favor and other times you have a hard time and you struggle and have to adapt somewhat. The game isn't unplayable difficult if you have bad luck and have to run around with a quality 1 weapon in the second week for example. You could adapt by relying more on the other weapon of your speccialization or buying more ammo early on to account for the higher ammo consumption.

We just have to agree to disagree about the importance of crafting, for me crafting weapons and armor is just too dependable for a game that is as replayable as this one. Crafting is fine if you want to play a game once. Crafting is a pest if you want to play a "new" game with every restart (even though with the abilities you now have potentially 5 "new" games before it repeats.

Take a look at the first quote of this reply by someone else.

The point isn't that "you should have to craft". But that You shouldn't be in a situation of "you have to loot, (specifically working equipment, not materials and what have you)".

And it's not just about finding somthing to break down to get parts to craft somthing. It's about the timescale and loot probabilities.

Thanks to gamestate scaling and horde nights there is an extremly limited timespan available in which to power up to certain capability thresholds. You can't spend forever, (or even a good long while), stuck with primitive tier stuff whilst you look for that perfect item to fit a specific build. You have to upscale at a minimum rate or your going to be in trouble. That means the odds of finding somthing to fit your specific build are quite low.

On the other hand each PoI will generally give several useful items. after the first few odds are you'll have items in all your slots of basic T1 quality and are now scrapping the bulk of them as they're no better or worse than what you have. But very early on your going to find some T2, (often T3), item for either armour or weapons type and thats going to be significantly better than anything your going to loot for quite a while. In the same vein, because of the number of parts and perks required to craft somthing better in any slot your not going to be in a position to replace it for quite a while. And by the time you are, you'll have looted somthing better.

This pattern is the essence of the current issues with crafting much of anything in the way of tools, armour, or weapons. You'll allways find somthing better than what you can currently craft and no matter how hard you invest you'll still end up finding somthing better still before you can gather both the materials and the perks to craft somthing.

 

[Shillen]

Fun Pimps also stated their goal was to make all different playstyles viable and that's why they balanced the xp from building, xp from fighting and xp from mining. But now it's like "go loot, or else." That's not allowing for multiple playstyles at all.

 

[meganoth]

The point isn't that "you should have to craft". But that You shouldn't be in a situation of "you have to loot, (specifically working equipment, not materials and what have you)".

And it's not just about finding somthing to break down to get parts to craft somthing. It's about the timescale and loot probabilities.

Thanks to gamestate scaling and horde nights there is an extremly limited timespan available in which to power up to certain capability thresholds. You can't spend forever, (or even a good long while), stuck with primitive tier stuff whilst you look for that perfect item to fit a specific build. You have to upscale at a minimum rate or your going to be in trouble. That means the odds of finding somthing to fit your specific build are quite low.

On the other hand each PoI will generally give several useful items. after the first few odds are you'll have items in all your slots of basic T1 quality and are now scrapping the bulk of them as they're no better or worse than what you have. But very early on your going to find some T2, (often T3), item for either armour or weapons type and thats going to be significantly better than anything your going to loot for quite a while. In the same vein, because of the number of parts and perks required to craft somthing better in any slot your not going to be in a position to replace it for quite a while. And by the time you are, you'll have looted somthing better.

This pattern is the essence of the current issues with crafting much of anything in the way of tools, armour, or weapons. You'll allways find somthing better than what you can currently craft and no matter how hard you invest you'll still end up finding somthing better still before you can gather both the materials and the perks to craft somthing.

If you read "should not have to craft" somewhere in my response then there must have been some misunderstanding. But if I have the materials to easily craft a better weapon than I have it would be madness not to do so. And if the game is so dependable and planable then you'll never get into a situation where you "sit on a fence". Because you craft the "fence" exactly where you want it to be.

I'm at the moment playing a SP game where I decided to go into agility, but the best melee weapon I found was a q4 steel spear. I really was on the fence for a time whether to change or keep doing agility. And such a problem never happens if you can reliably foresee that you will be able to craft the weapon of your choice from the start. Did not finding a good agility melee weapon make agility impossibly difficult for me? Definitely not.

Unnecessary to say that I like this uncertainty in a game and think it adds to the games replayability.