PC Learn by doing/reading/leveling can be merged.

meganoth said:
Though concerning your aside it is worth mentioning that he has as much right tossing his hot take onto the pile as you have praising them, even if it were certain that it won't result in any changes. This is a discussion forum. If he ever steps over the line you always have that button above to report the post to the moderators.
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I both do and do not agree with that.   The agree comes from the ability to express ones self here in the 'discussion' format.   I would never advocate to silence folks.

However, the caveat I feel that's relevant here is the content and language one uses to express that idea.   This is the part I don't have to accept.  If another forumgoer has the right to say what they feels, up until moderator intervention, then by the same logic shouldn't respond to said criticism with my desire to absolutely reject it?  I don't always need a report button to prove that point, which I see as a tool for potential silencing.  I'm speaking from the perspective of a participant in this conversation, not as some desire to position myself as a moderator.

I realize this can be hot button topic, but I just don't agree that all hot takes have value.  I could go on a whole other topic about how sensationalizing this has become popular across social media and from influencer types, but that's a whole other can of worms.

 
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I thought about this and thought that it could be combined into "Learn by Experience".

As you fight with a club, you gain club XP. If you craft clubs, for yourself or others, you gain club XP. If you perk into clubs you gain club XP faster. And if you read a magazine, it grants a large amount of club XP. No matter what you're doing you're progressing along the path of the club;  Eventually you learn to make sturdier, more advanced clubs.

Driving grants a small but steady trickle of vehicle XP. Being struck while wearing armor grants armor crafting XP (As does crafting new armor). Cooking food, boiling water, etc. grants cooking XP. Making or using medicines grants medicine XP. Upgrading blocks would grant repair tool XP. Or you can just go out looting for magazines which give you the insight.

A combination of learn by doing, learn by reading, and 'learn by crafting' with perks boosting your growth rate. The best of all worlds?

Obviously it'd require a lot of testing to properly balance, but the fact that it would allow everyone to play their own way and still progress seems like it'd satisfy every playstyle for all players.

 
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Khyron said:
seems like it'd satisfy every playstyle for all players.
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It would do so if people could just play the game at a normal pace, but the most vocal complainers about whatever mechanic is put into place are those who seek out the most efficient path to the top and then call all other paths unviable. If you did a hybrid between Learn by Doing, Learn by Crafting, and Learn by Reading, it would not take more than an hour or two before unsatisfied players started giving their scathing reviews about the devs FORCING players down one single path (whichever one is deemed the most efficient) and making the others weak pathetic alternatives. 

People who rush the game complain that there is only one viable way to play and they consume any new content within hours of an update and then call it a small pathetic update. There is no way to satisfy them. I think your idea would be satisfying to most people who play the game at a normal pace and don't have as their main objective to advance as quickly as possible but then again I think the current mechanic is satisfying to most people who play the game at a normal pace and don't have as their main objective to advance as quickly as possible.

I would be totally in favor of a hybrid system that uses all three methods of advancement but I also know it wouldn't satisfy everyone.

 
Roland said:
I would be totally in favor of a hybrid system that uses all three methods of advancement but I also know it wouldn't satisfy everyone.
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True, however, it is likely to satisfy the majority...maybe?  Who wants to count?

 
Khyron said:
I thought about this and thought that it could be combined into "Learn by Experience".

As you fight with a club, you gain club XP. If you craft clubs, for yourself or others, you gain club XP. If you perk into clubs you gain club XP faster. And if you read a magazine, it grants a large amount of club XP. No matter what you're doing you're progressing along the path of the club;  Eventually you learn to make sturdier, more advanced clubs.

Driving grants a small but steady trickle of vehicle XP. Being struck while wearing armor grants armor crafting XP (As does crafting new armor). Cooking food, boiling water, etc. grants cooking XP. Making or using medicines grants medicine XP. Upgrading blocks would grant repair tool XP. Or you can just go out looting for magazines which give you the insight.

A combination of learn by doing, learn by reading, and 'learn by crafting' with perks boosting your growth rate. The best of all worlds?

Obviously it'd require a lot of testing to properly balance, but the fact that it would allow everyone to play their own way and still progress seems like it'd satisfy every playstyle for all players.
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This seems to me to be A16 again, with a few small changes. No thank you. I like me my perks.

 
Kalen said:
100% agree... well thought out plan.
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I can't keep track of the two or three threads our conversation about this is spread but....its mea culpa time.

I was playing tonight and noticed when I went to use one of the magazines that it specificially says "read to increase crafting skill". So...yeah.

I still prefer to think of it as finding recipes but I'm forced to admit that it is just my own imagination and not actually the way it is. 

I concede the point.

I should tag in @Vaeliorin on this too since I annoyed the snot out of them and they should get a chance to say "Aha!!!"

 
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Roland said:
I can't keep track of the two or three threads our conversation about this is spread but....its mea culpa time.

I was playing tonight and noticed when I went to use one of the magazines that it specificially says "read to increase crafting skill". So...yeah.

I still prefer to think of it as finding recipes but I'm forced to admit that it is just my own imagination and not actually the way it is. 

I concede the point.

I should tag in @Vaeliorin on this too since I annoyed the snot out of them and they should get a chance to say "Aha!!!"
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Aha?

 
Complaining about what the TFP do is totally pointless and just gets you no where. You won't get the game you want ever.

Mods, that is the answer. There are tons of mods out there now that you can pick up and choose from to build your own game and play the way you want. I havent played vanilla for about 5 alphas now, I just mod the game the way I want it and enjoy that.

 
meganoth said:
This seems to me to be A16 again, with a few small changes. No thank you. I like me my perks.
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You can easily have both. LBD with perks and level restrictions. Try and play a bit of Darkness Falls. It´s a really good progression. Unless you like min/max a lot,  that doesn´t happen due to level caps.

Also magazines plus fergettin elixir are a way to get what you want really fast. It´s not an argument that people only want fast progression. The current system allows that aswell as the old one. Just in an even more weird way of doing it.

So no, the reasons a lot of people don´t like magazines is not that they can´t progress fast anymore. And if TFP wanted to prevent too fast progression they shouldn´t have made the fergetting elixir that cheap and shouldn´t have put learning elixir in every vending machine.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
You can easily have both. LBD with perks and level restrictions. Try and play a bit of Darkness Falls. It´s a really good progression. Unless you like min/max a lot,  that doesn´t happen due to level caps.

Also magazines plus fergettin elixir are a way to get what you want really fast. It´s not an argument that people only want fast progression. The current system allows that aswell as the old one. Just in an even more weird way of doing it.

So no, the reasons a lot of people don´t like magazines is not that they can´t progress fast anymore. And if TFP wanted to prevent too fast progression they shouldn´t have made the fergetting elixir that cheap and shouldn´t have put learning elixir in every vending machine.
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My reason for not wanting LBD is purely personal. I am not talking about "a lot of people".

I play vanilla and the usual conversion mods usually once every alpha with my friends (though we haven't played DF in A21 yet, did not see what he did with the magazine system). And DF especially is well balanced, no question about it. But it has the same problem I have with all LBD variants. If I don't use a weapon extensively I do not get good at it. If I use bow and melee most of the time my pistol skill will be lacking. Since DF is well balanced this also means really lacking.

I don't have a direct problem with that, I can play DF and have fun. Still, without LBD, I have full control, I can build my character how I want.

So, everyone who wants LBD has DF. Everyone else has vanilla. I don't think they can be merged to be both because they are at cross-purposes. 

 
I don´t see the need to merge both systems. It would be absolutly fine for me to get rid of magazines and only have the DF method. Also In DF you do find quite the books to up your skills. Switching weapons isn´t really a problem. And he kept his old system. No magazines.

And lacking? It´s the way more realistic approach. In vanilla i can become a pistol expert in one minute by clicking a few times on a perk in a menu. Meh. But as you seeem to like min/max that´s the way to go i guess.

I forgot to tag @Roland in my post, the 2 last paragraphs weren´t directed at you.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
I don´t see the need to merge both systems. It would be absolutly fine for me to get rid of magazines and only have the DF method. Also In DF you do find quite the books to up your skills. Switching weapons isn´t really a problem. And he kept his old system. No magazines.

And lacking? It´s the way more realistic approach. In vanilla i can become a pistol expert in one minute by clicking a few times on a perk in a menu. Meh. But as you seeem to like min/max that´s the way to go i guess.
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I don't care about realism. Simple as that. I like that I have control over my character development. And clicking a few times on a perk first needs the perk points, so it isn't really different than an LBD system.

This isn't about min/max, this is about providing the right incentives. If you want to specialize then the incentives in an LBD system are right on target, if not then not.

Exactly, no need to merge both systems. 

pApA^LeGBa said:
I forgot to tag @Roland in my post, the 2 last paragraphs weren´t directed at you.
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After playing console for a bit I can say this! 

I don't miss learning by doing. Some stuff was cool like melee, mining, running, etc but most of the others were ether so convoluted or pointless. Like who's going to upgrade tailoring? 

The only thing I miss is wellness but it was flawed too, cuz you only ate one or a few things the current system is still kinda flawed in terms of food, maybe something stuff like cornbread could give buffs like extra health, 

 
Adam the Waster said:
After playing console for a bit I can say this! 

I don't miss learning by doing. Some stuff was cool like melee, mining, running, etc but most of the others were ether so convoluted or pointless. Like who's going to upgrade tailoring? 

The only thing I miss is wellness but it was flawed too, cuz you only ate one or a few things the current system is still kinda flawed in terms of food, maybe something stuff like cornbread could give buffs like extra health, 
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maybe if some crafted armors are good to use but i rly dont know

 
Adam the Waster said:
But most light armor isn't good 
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Padded armor is absolutely fantastic because it gives you some resist early game when you need it the most and because it gives you zero penalties to stamina or movement or noise. Leather armor in my opinion is awful because while it does Grant small amount of armor more than padded, it also lowers your stamina regen it makes more noise and it reduces your speed. I don't feel like it grants enough additional armor for that trade-off to be worth it. Typically if I'm going light armor I stick with padded and boost it with whatever banded armor plating I can find until I can get a good set of military gear. With heavy armor it's all worthwhile because you're making that trade off of armor for mobility and Noise right from the get-go and the upgrade amounts are significant enough that you always want to have the strongest available

Personally I really hope that the new armors and outfits and everything else being added in the next update will be a lot more interesting and give me reasons to want to do anything other than padded armor 80% of the time

 
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