Learn By Doing, Perking, or Magazine

[Sapient6]

Magazines only helped that hit the trader, get a quest, run&gun, turn in quest type of playstyle.

Not true. There are more play loops than just "mining 24\7" and "do quests".

One could do the insanely boring "just run up and down every street looting every mailbox". That works pretty well, but... insanely boring.

If I'm looking for magazines, though, I like to mix it with a scavenging run. After all, the magazines are only good for crafting and I'm going to need those crafting materials. So now I'm running around looting/scavenging cars and houses and buildings. No missions, trader only to sell non-crafting loot. Maybe to you that's a distinction without a difference, but from my pov it's a fairly varied gameplay loop.

 

[Kalen]

I prefer LBD.

The magazine system isn't terrible, however it does have one major flaw that drives me crazy. The perks you select dictate what magazines you find. So if you perk into shotguns, for example, you're more likely to find a shotgun magazine and less likely to find any other. That makes no sense to me.

Its even more painful in multiplayer where it matters which player loots, because their individual perks are going to dictate which magazines they find.

I've mentioned before, but I'd much rather see perks giving you a chance to get more skill points from a magazine, reflecting your better understanding of the topic.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

The magazine system isn't terrible, however it does have one major flaw that drives me crazy. The perks you select dictate what magazines you find.

That's sort of the case I guess. I think they did that so it would cater to each players preference, but it would be impossible
for it to do the same thing for multiplayer. But I don't think all of the elements are weighted equally. It's like when I play a
mod, I play two different ways. The way it was written, second is not to invest highly in anything, just basic survival stuff.

The second way sort of shows me the bias when creating the mod. I'm playing the second way now. I only invested in perc
to 7 because I wanted animal tracking. The other thing is lucky looter. My weapon book I consume is bows. This is the result
for me so far. All books were found, in all biomes, none are being sold. So if all were equally weighted, then rifle and spear
should be the only ones I find more of. The bow books and parts I am getting from lucky looter and Savage country, the rarer
container.

Notice the quantities, and what they are dedicated to.

 

[Kalen]

That's sort of the case I guess. I think they did that so it would cater to each players preference, but it would be impossible
for it to do the same thing for multiplayer. But I don't think all of the elements are weighted equally. It's like when I play a
mod, I play two different ways. The way it was written, second is not to invest highly in anything, just basic survival stuff.

Pretty sure the reason it works the way it does is because it just adjusts the chance of a particular magazine rather than giving a bonus.

So if you want a specific magazine to have more of a chance to drop, you have to remove the chance from another. Overall, you're probably still going to get a decent selection, as you demonstrated, but I really dislike that it works that way.

 

[Paiper Zombee]

Pretty sure the reason it works the way it does is because it just adjusts the chance of a particular magazine rather than giving a bonus.

So if you want a specific magazine to have more of a chance to drop, you have to remove the chance from another. Overall, you're probably still going to get a decent selection, as you demonstrated, but I really dislike that it works that way.

Yes, that's almost how it works. If you put points into a perk that uses magazines then it increases the chance that you'll find those particular magazines, but doesn't eliminate the chance to find others that are unrelated. This lasts until the player finds all the books in the series, then regardless of points, those magazines will become less common in loot.

Its even more painful in multiplayer where it matters which player loots, because their individual perks are going to dictate which magazines they find.

Yep. This right here.

I've mentioned before, but I'd much rather see perks giving you a chance to get more skill points from a magazine, reflecting your better understanding of the topic.

This is what I originally thought the LBM system would do when the player invested points into the perk, instead of just further increasing the chance to find the magazine.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I feel like people assume sandbox means equal ways to do everything. That is most certainly not the case. If you want to play ARK with no dinosaurs then your life will be harder. If you want to be a miner and never loot a POI, likewise, your life will be harder.

For the 12 people who like to do nothing but mining, I am sorry but no you can't just mine all day and be the same as someone more well rounded. The fact that you can mine, more or less whenever, is the sandbox part of the game.

Changing game design to accommodate every possible path is just madness.

My problem is that it used to be a viable playstyle, and they took it from us. I played largely the same way A16->whenever magazines were added, and it wasn't a problem. The fun part of the game for me was designing and building huge, silly bases. I can do that now, but it's going to take me an extra 30 or so hours to get all the magazines doing stuff I don't want to do, in order to be left alone to do the things I do want to do.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I started playing in A15 and my preferred skill leveling system is the current one. With this system I get access to recipes that I usually wouldn't have when crafting recipes were controlled by perk points. I also prefer this to LBD because having to manage forge/workbench outputs to ensure you got crafting XP was not enjoyable to me.

What I don't love about the current system is that loot seems overly deterministic. As you select your perk you are put on rails for what loot you will get. I found the game more enjoyable when there was more randomness to what you would find.

 

[plzkthxbye]

I like the little dopamine hit of getting a magazine I want, so it tickles that part of my brain in ways the other methods don't. I didn't mind LBD either (for tool use and combat related stuff, anyway), at least in Darkness Falls (I don't think I ever played with LBD in vanilla, unless A13/14 had it).

 

[Javabean867]

I definitely prefer the leveling up and perks controlling what you are good at, as opposed to the learn by doing. And i like that the perks you get effect what magazines you find in loot.

For those that don't like the magazine system, i recommend you mod them out of loot, and when you put perk points into a skill, you just give yourself and appropriate amount of magazines for the perk, so you can craft something appropriate for your level.

I'm honestly surprised there isn't a mod that does that btw. it seems like the simplest thing to do, rather than re-creating learn by doing in the new version. I perked a point into pistols, here is 20 crafting skill into pistols, etc.

 

[Kalen]

Yes, that's almost how it works. If you put points into a perk that uses magazines then it increases the chance that you'll find those particular magazines, but doesn't eliminate the chance to find others that are unrelated. This lasts until the player finds all the books in the series, then regardless of points, those magazines will become less common in loot.

I dont see how thats possible.... you can't increase the chance of getting one thing without reducing it somewhere else.

Just a very simple example:

If there are only 4 magazines in the game, you have a 25% chance of any one coming up
if you increase one to a 30% chance, you have to remove 5% in some combination from the others, because the total can't add up to more than 100%

 

[theFlu]

because the total can't add up to more than 100%

It can if you do a Bookworm; a random chance of getting an extra of that type. But yeah, I think you guys are perhaps talking past each other; I don't think Paiper actually said the chance for "others" would remain the same, just that "it's not eliminated", right?

 

[Kalen]

It can if you do a Bookworm; a random chance of getting an extra of that type. But yeah, I think you guys are perhaps talking past each other; I don't think Paiper actually said the chance for "others" would remain the same, just that "it's not eliminated", right?

Ah yeah, you're probably right.... my bad

 

[Kyoji]

My problem is that it used to be a viable playstyle, and they took it from us. I played largely the same way A16->whenever magazines were added, and it wasn't a problem. The fun part of the game for me was designing and building huge, silly bases. I can do that now, but it's going to take me an extra 30 or so hours to get all the magazines doing stuff I don't want to do, in order to be left alone to do the things I do want to do.

I can understand your frustrations with it as a previous system that worked for you, but even you should agree that they wouldn't possibly go back to the previous system just for that. Mods would be the best course of action for more specific and less globally adopted playstyles IMO.

I think a combination system of LBD and Perks would be ideal but I don't think it's worth the development time to swap once again to a new skill system.

 

[zztong]

Just wanted to get a consensus on what method players like(d) most for advancement: Learn By Doing, Learn By Perking, or Learn By Magazine so that us players, and the Fun Pimps, can see what system is liked and why.

I like earning points via experience and spending them on Perks. I could live with LBD, but it isn't my preference. I see spending points on Perks as being universally abstracted from reality but a way to craft the character you want. Admittedly there's an economy related to improving the attributes that is frustrating to some extent, but not a major issue to me. LBD, on the other hand, can be realistic and unrealistic at the same time, and overall I found it to be clunky. I can live within it as a system, but its economy combined with points from experience is also frustrating. So, I rank LBD lower in appeal.

As for crafting, I don't mind schematic books and magazines. I would like to see the way magazine points are applied to a group be a bit different. There were some ideas floated around related to applying partial magazine points to other group members or applying 1 magazine point to all group members and a bonus to those with certain perks. Those could work though I think there would have to be some rescaling to go along with that.

 

[Lax]

You're right, i guess they should make it so you can dig up magazines. When you chop down a tree you can possibly have a magazine fall out. When you break open a rock you may find a geode containing a magazine. Perhaps when you upgrade blocks a magazine may have a chance to fall out from between the boards.

How about a magazine vending machine on wheels that will show up daily after you make a beacon for it? This way anyone with whatever "playstyle" they want can progress and ignore however much of the game they please.

How about a library card to "borrow" a few books?

 

[Vaeliorin]

I can understand your frustrations with it as a previous system that worked for you, but even you should agree that they wouldn't possibly go back to the previous system just for that. Mods would be the best course of action for more specific and less globally adopted playstyles IMO.

I think a combination system of LBD and Perks would be ideal but I don't think it's worth the development time to swap once again to a new skill system.

No, I don't expect them to go back. I just sometimes feel like I was sold a bill of goods, given that I watched the game for years (literally), finally bought it in A16.4, played the everliving hell out of it, and then it got changed on me.

I understand EA and all, but I never would have guessed that the way the game played at a fundamental level would be changed like that.

The funny thing is, I generally hate LBD systems (like the Elder Scrolls, for example.) 7D2d and Wizardry 6/7/8 are the only places I've ever liked it.

 

[Soulmonster]

My main problem with LBD, as implemented in Valheim, is that it is so uninteresting and devoid of joy -- impersonal, really. It just happens. You do something, and then automatically you get better at that very thing. The outcome is that I don't care about my skills and how good I am at certain things when playing Valheim, because I can't influence it anyway so it doesn't matter. I rarely look at my skills, I rarely think about them. Basically, Valheim is not made more interesting or enjoyable because of how they have implemented skills and character development.

With the system now in 7D2D, I get a little kick whenever I get a new skill point because I looooove using that skill point to get better at what I want to be better at. To some extent, nights are for looking at the perk tree and planning what I will do with the next few skill points I get. I derive a lot of pleasure from this. Right now I use a stun baton in my MP game and there are at least three perks that I can spend skills point in to get better at swinging that thing. What should I pick? What goes with the rest of my character build? And the rest of the players? Or should I spend them somewhere else entirely? I get a lot of enjoyment from this. It is part of why 7D2D is such a great game, for me.

I get that it isn't as realistic as LBD. But it is not totally unrealistic, either. What I do most of in a game is typically where I would spend the skill points anyway, thus emulating LBD. And if I suddenly decide to get better at something I haven't really done much, say, shoot a rifle, then I picture I can do that because I have read some magazines about rifles or some of my fellow players have helped me learn it. I can rationalize it fairly easily without it breaking immersion. To me, the thing with any of these systems (LBD or magazines or perks) which breaks immersion or makes it all unrealistic, is the fact that we develop our characters so quickly, especially physical characteristics. That is totally unrealistic, much more so than the ability to get better at something you haven't done excessively.

To be constructive, a hybrid system where physical stats are increased at least partly though LBD and more theoretical skills are learnt through reading, might work and be even better - I am just not sure it is worth the effort of implementing. I feel there are many other things that are more important.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

The Flu painted a verbal picture for me. About beads in a bag.
That made me look into the XML. The most popular items in discussions have a lot more,
container chances associated with them. The bow i comparison is a short list.

So it seems even if percentage scale, or low med high prob, is included. The constant underlying
governor is how many Loot containers are assigned to the items.

I may set all of my skills to 0. Then put points to see what happens.

 

[theFlu]

My main problem with LBD, as implemented in Valheim, is that it is so uninteresting and devoid of joy -- impersonal, really. It just happens.

Yeh, Valheim LBD is good in the way that it's out of the way; it's sorta too slow / impossible to grind for, and weak in its effect. So you'll just use the "right type" of weapon for the most part, instead of the one you're "good at". That does also make it completely "invisible", the increasing numbers pop up randomly, but you're never that happy about it.

GNS just started a 16.4 test series, looking at that, it does look more interesting than Valheim's; you get skill points to spend on top of And partially gated by the LBD. At least that's something you'll be playing with and around. Those skill points also dictating the quality of your crafts.