PC LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[FA_Q2]

basicially this.
@Fa_Q2:

Skyrim is not a PvP experience. If you want to grind your levels, you can.

But even then... I had 100000 but still smithing at 60 because of the missing materials. (btw the dagger exploit has been fixed, same with potions).

But lets say you could grind. For example you can exploit followers so you can slevel up sneak to 100 day 1.

Now you have sneak 100. Great. Are you having fun? Maybe you want to play a masterassasin. So you can do this.

But it is a chore. But you are rewarded for the chore. You have no PvP so having a lvl 100 char day 1 doesnt hurt others. And as long as you enjoy it, its your choice.

But do you know this image?

basicially this.

@Fa_Q2:

Skyrim is not a PvP experience. If you want to grind your levels, you can.

But even then... I had 100000 but still smithing at 60 because of the missing materials. (btw the dagger exploit has been fixed, same with potions).

You declare a lot of things fixed that are simply not fixed at all. The dagger exploit has not been fixed - it has been adjusted. For instance, in Requiem you make gold necklaces rather than daggers and the exact same thing happens. Same with potions.

Why? Because the problem is not balance or detail - it is inherent in a lbd system. You flatly cannot balance it properly because the player does not have a real reason to smith a large amount of items. Making just a few level your skill as a proper balance would require means there is a GAPING exploit allowing you to level really fast. Balance for that fact, as Requiem and almost every other MOD tries to accomplish, and you end up with the opposite problem - you have to smith an amazing amount of garbage to make the skill useful in any capacity.

But lets say you could grind. For example you can exploit followers so you can slevel up sneak to 100 day 1.

Now you have sneak 100. Great. Are you having fun? Maybe you want to play a masterassasin. So you can do this.

But it is a chore. But you are rewarded for the chore. You have no PvP so having a lvl 100 char day 1 doesnt hurt others. And as long as you enjoy it, its your choice.

....

Because you like a particular system does not make it a good one. Just means you like it. It does not address the merits of lbd over common pool.

But do you know this image?



Sure go and smith yourself to lvl 100 but you wont find the deadra hearts to use it and meanwhile the enemies got stronger.

You CAN do it. But even if you CAN you aren't brokenly overpowered.

Wrong. Period. You are arguing what you WANT to happen, not what actually does.

Don't get me wrong. The balance in Skyrim is laughable. But that has something to do with skills and enemy scalings (endless fireball stun for example or 100000 damage sneakattack or summoned dremora lord) and not with the LBD system, which is overall pretty well balanced (once the more obvious exploits were gone).

Balanced? Maybe. Such has nothing whatsoever to do with any point that I have made. LBD is crap because it becomes the primary motivator for player actions rather than the game mechanics driving those actions. This is what directly leads to doing stupid ♥♥♥♥ that does not make any real sense.

I can see why you think mods addressed the abysmal progression system. They have addressed balance for the most part. With the right combination of mods you can fine tune difficulty to a pretty damn specific level. That does not change the problems I have been talking about.

You can simply walk through the world and do stuff and become better at it.

It feels rewarding to have gone trhrough hordes of enemies and now be able to use your Longsword to decapitate enemies.

....

That is exactly what happens with a common pool xp system as well.

It is by no means perfect and Perkoverhauls are plenty. But all of them build upon the LBD system.

And it works great! The perks and the balance of the rest of the game is just lacking.

Then I would have expected one of the million mods to address the fact that the progression system governs game play more than the game itself.

They don't.

What virtually every MOD tries to address is how easy the progression system makes the game for anyone that even remotely does anything efficient. Balance actually has been addressed - requiem is hard as hell in the beginning - but the problems that I have been pointing out have zero to do with balance. They have to do with pointless grinding. You have to really like grinding to enjoy a LBD system and, frankly, there are better means to introduce grinding into a game.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Which is why you don't do it for any competative game.

YOU descide how much you want to grind.

There is always a grind and every time you grind there is another downside. In 7d2d it was ressources were needed and you weren't out there scavenging or building (except for mining).

In Skyrim its that enemies get stronger as well.

But lets stop that. We have radicially different viewpoints on this issue.

You go at singleplayer games with a competative mindset. I can exploit every system if I want to. But if there is no incentive, then why do it?

You can grind LBD (although you can reduce it by introducing ressource shortages or maximum leveling in a predetermined timeframe and more) however much you want. But in games where there is LBD you don't need to to win or to enjoy the game. That is simply put why its such a great system. When you want to grind, you can. You don't have to.

I will stop replying to you now since everything has been said on my side. Have a great day

 

[Kubikus]

Exactly, don't know why more people can't see that.

Who doesn't see it? Link? I mean, before you'd get xp tied to the weapon you used to kill zombies. Now you get xp for killing zombies, no matter the weapon. Is there anybody who does not see the unification? Speak up then, plz.

In general a large part of the game designer's job is exactly that - to protect players from ruining their own experience - they really have to.

And that's ok, what I mean with "I don't think that the reason really is that the devs think their game has such boring activities that the player has to be protected from having to perform them." is the devs' argument, that it's better to have a unified xp-currency because people might not like a certain lbd-activity and should not be forced doing that to improve the corresponding skill. Myself, for example, am I not the greatest fan of mining. I prefer killing zombies. So the devs are - allegedly - kind to allow me to level up my mining skill by killing zombies. Then again, though, while I am not the greatest fan of mining, I do not dislike it to a degree that I need the devs to redesign the game for me. I will still mine, and over time, mine enough to get the corresponding skill up. Even max it out.

And if they really wanted to provide a method to rid me of the necessity to mine, they'd allow me to acquire materials somehow else. Because as it is now, I still have to mine if I need stone and wood and whatnot. So practically, nothing much has changed and the argument does not make a lot of sense. They could make it so, that you can buy materials in large quantities from a trader or give materials as rewards for those quests.

I this case though, I think that they did the opposite - saying "you can level however you want and master anything you want", because "freedom" is a great thing /s. So it's no wonder players use the single most efficient activity and repeat it ad nauseam in order to master everything and later complain that "the game is a zombie/mining grind". They actually should have protected the players from that one.

I've seen ppl on servers who have max level but few zombie kills, and if they have max level, it may be assumed they have a lot of perks that are related to zombie killing. So there are certainly people who use that freedom. However, if I am not interested in killing zombies, why do I have to have high skills doing it? Just like I don't need great mining skills if I don't mine a lot. And if I mine a lot, my skills will increase.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense, thus my assumption that the mechanics had be redesigned for the devs' convenience.

 

[RestInPieces]

Who doesn't see it? Link? I mean, before you'd get xp tied to the weapon you used to kill zombies. Now you get xp for killing zombies, no matter the weapon. Is there anybody who does not see the unification? Speak up then, plz.

Pretty much anyone? I think that the unified system and that "freedom" it grants to players to progress at any area they like by doing anything, is the worst part of the perk system, because it "tells" players to use the single most efficient way. But it mostly gets praised as something positive. Perhaps balancing XP sources will solve it to a degree.

I've seen ppl on servers who have max level but few zombie kills, and if they have max level, it may be assumed they have a lot of perks that are related to zombie killing. So there are certainly people who use that freedom.

Not so sure about that. At early game zombie killing is much more efficient - later in the game, after getting some perks/tools, mining becomes even more efficient. It was funny seeing teammates who hate mining, mine all day in order to be able to level.

However, if I am not interested in killing zombies, why do I have to have high skills doing it? Just like I don't need great mining skills if I don't mine a lot. And if I mine a lot, my skills will increase.
It just doesn't make a lot of sense, thus my assumption that the mechanics had be redesigned for the devs' convenience.

True - from what I've seen/read in these forums, some people perceive raising their favorite skill as "wasted time", and want to level up by any means necessary in order to master it before using it. So they will grind XP with the most efficient way even if they don't like that way, so that they are able to become good at the skill they prefer.

 

[KhaineGB]

Just a small aside, if onOtherAttackedSelf and target_entity tags worked correctly, then the "hugging a cacti to level armor use" exploit wouldn't exist.

This is what I mean about wanting TFP to finish off their various hooks, activate the LBD system that is STILL in the code and let us modders mess around with it.

 

[mr.natural]

Just a small aside, if onOtherAttackedSelf and target_entity tags worked correctly, then the "hugging a cacti to level armor use" exploit wouldn't exist.
This is what I mean about wanting TFP to finish off their various hooks, activate the LBD system that is STILL in the code and let us modders mess around with it.

Yes please, please, please.

 

[Davy Crockett]

I can't believe that spam crafting and getting hit to level your armor skill are still talking points here as if scrapping the whole system was genuinely the only way to avoid encouraging that kind of gameplay. This would imply that every single game with an LBD system would actually be better off without it.

What if there was no armor skill because it doesn't make sense anyway?

What if leveling weapon skill only worked if you actually hit a zombie?

What if your basic abilities were good enough that leveling them up felt like a bonus and not a necessity? Of course this would have required a rebalancing of building materials. Right now it's just cobblestone or reinforced concrete, everything else is pointless because zombie hands are stronger than axes.

Finally, what about the fact that spam crafting had already been fixed? You already had the formula to address these issues, and did address them by replacing some skills with perks. It's almost impossible to comprehend that the same people that implemented this elegant solution would eventually replace it with something so shallow; a couple of years ago your answer to the question "how do we encourage the player behavior we want" was removing the exact thing that was responsible for the bad gameplay and replacing it with something else that the player would work towards naturally. Now it's removing entire systems. Not just LBD, but schematics, fertilization, etc., all in favor of buying their benefits with perks.

I remember when I first heard about A17's attribute system that would encourage specialization, I thought you would be able to pick your attributes on character creation; create a character with high strength to immediately start mining and building if you wanted, developing both those skills on top of your character's inclination, not killing 1000 zombies to become more intelligent and figure out how to build a motorcycle. Again, it's very hard to believe that people so concerned with player behavior wouldn't be able to figure out what would happen if zombies were pretty much the only thing in the game giving decent experience, especially considering how long A17 was in development and how the "spam crafting" phenomenon had already been all but removed from the game.

 

[Roland]

 

[Poojam]

I can't believe that spam crafting and getting hit to level your armor skill are still talking points here as if scrapping the whole system was genuinely the only way to avoid encouraging that kind of gameplay. This would imply that every single game with an LBD system would actually be better off without it.
What if there was no armor skill because it doesn't make sense anyway?

What if leveling weapon skill only worked if you actually hit a zombie?

What if your basic abilities were good enough that leveling them up felt like a bonus and not a necessity? Of course this would have required a rebalancing of building materials. Right now it's just cobblestone or reinforced concrete, everything else is pointless because zombie hands are stronger than axes.

Finally, what about the fact that spam crafting had already been fixed? You already had the formula to address these issues, and did address them by replacing some skills with perks. It's almost impossible to comprehend that the same people that implemented this elegant solution would eventually replace it with something so shallow; a couple of years ago your answer to the question "how do we encourage the player behavior we want" was removing the exact thing that was responsible for the bad gameplay and replacing it with something else that the player would work towards naturally. Now it's removing entire systems. Not just LBD, but schematics, fertilization, etc., all in favor of buying their benefits with perks.

I remember when I first heard about A17's attribute system that would encourage specialization, I thought you would be able to pick your attributes on character creation; create a character with high strength to immediately start mining and building if you wanted, developing both those skills on top of your character's inclination, not killing 1000 zombies to become more intelligent and figure out how to build a motorcycle. Again, it's very hard to believe that people so concerned with player behavior wouldn't be able to figure out what would happen if zombies were pretty much the only thing in the game giving decent experience, especially considering how long A17 was in development and how the "spam crafting" phenomenon had already been all but removed from the game.

I'm convinced they don't actually play the game. They definitely don't play it like a lot of the playerbase plays it (persistent, long term survival worlds with communal PVE and/or PVP experience).

There's a couple of them working to get the code to be as efficient as possible. But the ones that seem to be driving the boat creatively/gameplay experience-wise are simply dabbling with the mundane in the game as their day job. They play other games.

 

[xXBadDreamXx]

my only problem with the perk system is that i feel forced to seek out zombies so that i can level to do basic tasks when id rather be harvesting and looting for materials to make a base and protect myself...its immersion breaking. plus the zombies suck and need to be completely redone. having the zombies the main focus of everything just puts how really terrible they are right in the limelight. at least before you did some mining then some looting then some tree cutting then killed some zombies. now its , cut a tree oh heres 6 zombies...loot some house heres 50 zombies...do some mining attracted 4 screamers and 80 zombies...ffs

 

[SylenThunder]

my only problem with the perk system is that i feel forced to seek out zombies so that i can level to do basic tasks when id rather be harvesting and looting for materials to make a base and protect myself...its immersion breaking. plus the zombies suck and need to be completely redone. having the zombies the main focus of everything just puts how really terrible they are right in the limelight. at least before you did some mining then some looting then some tree cutting then killed some zombies. now its , cut a tree oh heres 6 zombies...loot some house heres 50 zombies...do some mining attracted 4 screamers and 80 zombies...ffs

You'll get more exp harvesting than you will killing zeds. This has been the case since at least 17.2.

 

[Cernwn]

Madmole has requested a few times now for LBD discussion to cease in the A18 dev thread. I will now be enforcing those requests. All LBD discussion should happen here.

While I don't mind the new xp system and am having a BLAST with a heavily modded A17.3b18, I do believe the LBD system could have been superior, with a couple caveats:

1. Active vs Passive - "activated" (meaning you have to press a button or click a menu to use) skills could be 100% LBD, but "passive" (always on, such as armor related) perks could be be bought with xp or learnable by RARE training manual (trader quests or treasure chests) rewards. The new book sets Madmole has already designed for A18 would be PERFECT for the latter. Active (LBD) skills could be in the 1-100 range (percentile like Everquest), while passive (bought/taught) perks remained in the 1-5 ranks range.

2. Maximum LBD skill increases gated - by either level (say 5 per level, like the older Elder Scrolls games), by days gone by/survived or by gamestage (my favorite, since it is days survived+level). If you died and respawned, it would be a while before you advanced the gamestage enough to gain additional skill points, beyond those you currently possess. Not only would this address min-maxing exploitation, and people rushing to maximize everything too quickly (thus skipping content), but it would be a far more effective deterrent than the widely disliked death debuff.

Anywho, these are just a couple ideas for a more hybridized system that might be a compromise for TFP. I am also a supporter of skill-based systems like SWG vs most modern level-based systems, but that is a whole nother can o' worms best saved for another post. Slلinte!

 

[RipClaw]

You'll get more exp harvesting than you will killing zeds. This has been the case since at least 17.2.

What's more effective changes as the game progresses. In the beginning it is definitely more effective to kill zombies instead of hitting rocks with a stone axe. In the late game even looting a bird's nest give more XP than killing a zombie.

 

[Davy Crockett]

I'm convinced they don't actually play the game. They definitely don't play it like a lot of the playerbase plays it (persistent, long term survival worlds with communal PVE and/or PVP experience).
There's a couple of them working to get the code to be as efficient as possible. But the ones that seem to be driving the boat creatively/gameplay experience-wise are simply dabbling with the mundane in the game as their day job. They play other games.

That would actually make sense. Imagine adding a bicycle to your game that slows down when riding it uphill but doesn't accelerate when riding it downhill, and not immediately fixing that. It would drive me insane.

 

[Morloc]

Imagine adding a bicycle to your game that slows down when riding it uphill but doesn't accelerate when riding it downhill, and not immediately fixing that. It would drive me insane.

Never go to the gym...

-Morloc

 

[SylenThunder]

What's more effective changes as the game progresses. In the beginning it is definitely more effective to kill zombies instead of hitting rocks with a stone axe. In the late game even looting a bird's nest give more XP than killing a zombie.

Once you've put a point into sexual tyrannosaurus, and have looted an iron pick, you get more exp from hitting rocks. This is easily done by day 2. By day 3 you're leveling twice as fast with mining than you are finding zeds to kill.

In my most recent gameplay with a friend, by day 4 I was level 28 and they were only 16. All I did was work on building our base, and they were exploring town and killing zeds.

The only holdback was stamina, food, and water. The latter two are easy to get, and the first is managed by just applying a couple of skillpoints in the first few levels. After that, it was cake.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

The amount of XP you get for doing different things will change depending on what you placed your points in and when.

Early game, mid game, late game... doesn’t matter. If at any point you can gain more XP doing a specific task, things are unbalanced under this system. It is likely to be harder to balance as this system becomes more involved in A18.

I mention this because of the recent posts in this thread and also because “hard to balance” was once used as a reason to change the system in the first place.

I think eventually I will grow to appreciate the new system, especially once A18 arrives, but I expect crazy imbalance coming with it. However, there could be enough randomness with books to cause a kind of imbalance that is more based on chance, resulting in a near-impossible situation to balance, to the point people won’t even care anymore.

 

[RestInPieces]

but I expect crazy imbalance coming with it. However, there could be enough randomness with books to cause a kind of imbalance that is more based on chance, resulting in a near-impossible situation to balance, to the point people won’t even care anymore.

I definitely don't expect this system or xp sources to be balanced especially after seeing various dev comments about it. As I see it, the only way it can be balanced is if they strictly balance them according to the max xp/time one can get from an activity only (which is hard to measure for e.g. zombie killing), no other factors included. I also think books will throw off item economy/perks to an extend and will create more problems than the benefits they will bring by being chase items.

I don't think much consideration is being put into "these kinds of stuff" and don't think they are trying to avoid a "game-y" approach (the new kamikaze zombie is an indication they aren't). Also hopefully they will see future complaints for what they really are, because these things do make a difference. That's just the pessimistic me though, hope they prove me wrong.

 

[OldManBrian]

I'm convinced they don't actually play the game. They definitely don't play it like a lot of the playerbase plays it (persistent, long term survival worlds with communal PVE and/or PVP experience).
There's a couple of them working to get the code to be as efficient as possible. But the ones that seem to be driving the boat creatively/gameplay experience-wise are simply dabbling with the mundane in the game as their day job. They play other games.

I think this is accurate, but generally common in the gaming industry. (And software development in general.)

Makes sense too, from a development standpoint it's probably hard to maintain a long-term survival world with constant code changes going in. Add to that just the fact that testing requires multiple gameplay runs over and over, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game and makes it difficult for a developer to see the "fun" in what they're doing.

Hence the changes in development direction and narrowing focus over time with many of these major updates:

• Dramatically smaller maps
  
• Streamlining
  
• Stripping of features that the devs seemingly got bored with or add difficulty to balancing (LBD, random loot schematics, etc)
  

They all make it easier to balance and quicker to test, as well as making the gameplay loops "faster" to keep things fresh for them. Problem is a lot of us (I like to think the majority) liked the wide open spaces, pacing, and unpredictability of the randomly looted schematics.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I think this is accurate, but generally common in the gaming industry. (And software development in general.)
Makes sense too, from a development standpoint it's probably hard to maintain a long-term survival world with constant code changes going in. Add to that just the fact that testing requires multiple gameplay runs over and over, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game and makes it difficult for a developer to see the "fun" in what they're doing.

Hence the changes in development direction and narrowing focus over time with many of these major updates:

• Dramatically smaller maps
  
• Streamlining
  
• Stripping of features that the devs seemingly got bored with or add difficulty to balancing (LBD, random loot schematics, etc)
  

They all make it easier to balance and quicker to test, as well as making the gameplay loops "faster" to keep things fresh for them. Problem is a lot of us (I like to think the majority) liked the wide open spaces, pacing, and unpredictability of the randomly looted schematics.

It's a good theory, but...

There are at least 11 new weapons shipping with Alpha 18, and probably more. Over 140 schematics to find and unlock. Over 100 books..

Try testing and balancing that in less time.