PC LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[Khulkhuum]

The reason i don't play TES is mostly due to LBD. Sure it can be fun, but later on you have to grind the skills somehow, because you feel you need the next point. I don't want to focus on gaining points for artificial bonuses. Sure cheesing the game is fun, especially as you could get OP and not worry about anything really. You could also change the game so that you 1-hit anything, but that doesn't mean it's how the game should be played.

Talking about how the game should be played is a very specific term, because it's not a matter of "you play it wrong, you should do this...", but in a general sense "there are ways to get this, so you need to do this and this, otherwise you won't achieve that". How the game should be played is tied in how the player progresses, what's the focus (gathering, fighting, exploration) and also how the game is configured (day time, loot chance, etc.).

 

[hotpoon]

LBD focuses the player's attention on progression bars and point farming. Some LBD proponents will claim that it helps you play more organically and yet when I suggested that people could play organically by doing some repetitive work in the category before spending the perk point to get that same feeling those same people weren't interested. LBD is for those who like to reduce the game to spreadsheets and progress bars and those who will set their macros to more conveniently rush through the progression and gain the advantage over others on the server.
Yes, the example of hugging cacti is ridiculous but the example is an exaggeration of a very real problem. People will do unnatural things or take repetitive actions they aren't really interested in doing for the sake of filling a blue bar. What really DOES happen is someone who would normally stop chopping wood once they have enough will do it more if they check and see they are close to improving their bar. So now you've stopped playing the actual game and are playing the fill-the-bar game.

You're describing a min/maxer, not the average fan of LBD. There are min/maxers in every system, as has been pointed out with the screamer farming. As for me and my 20 or so friends, only 1 of us spam crafted in A15, but then that particular friend finds a way to do that in all games. He doesn't know how to just have fun and play a game. His sense of enjoyment comes from saying his DPS is the highest. There is probably some sort of psychological profiling that could be done there, but the point is, it is a mindset that is not tied to any system. It could be Ark, it could be Diablo 3, or any game. He will find a way to be max level with the highest DPS in 1 day.

Edit to add: seems like TFP are developing their game now with people like him in mind, instead of the rest of us.

 

[Bhaaltazar]

However, I do hope that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it.

I am one of those who dislikes many things about A17, but at the same time i really do enjoy some of the new additions. If there would be options to pick a style of progression ( like LBD or current version ) I would be super happy player.

I miss old playstyle from A9 to A16, but I really like all the new things added to A17. I HATE level gates and I HATE perk progression - I feel it doesn't fit well with this game - and yes at the same time I also disliked some skill limitations in A16 - like you need construction at level 20 to make a forge or something alike - but I just went out did it stopped when I had enough and moved on to other skills I needed at that moment.

I had to do specific stuff to improve it - like mining. looting... etc, not I can just buy a perk for looting without even clearing one POI and just kill zombies where i see them. That what kills immersion for me.

I can't go to store buy me a PhD from astrophysics and voila I m super smart ^^ I know it's a game but all these new dumbed down, overly simplified progression perk system is ruining all the experience from A9 forward for me and many other players who supported the game from the early stages.

Thats why I only play Darkness falls modpack, which is the closest thing to what would I like the game to be like. Level 120 and still having fun, looting explorimng, building - same as on day 7, while on vanilla I hardly last over day 21 horde get bored and just restart or move to something else after 10 hours or so.

And that said I really hope so as Roland said that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it. Than I would be a happy customer.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Because you like LBD. I, OTOH, think that LBD is one of the worst concepts in progression systems and have never seen one that is immersive or fun.

LOL. Fallout's system was light years better than TES. TES has one of the absolute worst progressions systems I have ever seen in AAA gaming. It is a running joke how broken potion and enchanting has been throughout the entire series and armor progression in that game is the most ridiculous attempt at LBD ever tried in my opinion.

If you want to support LBD I would suggest running as far away from TES as possible. If anything, the MASSIVE number of mods that tried, and utterly failed, to temper the grinding aspects and game breaking aspects from the progression system in that game proves that the 'solutions' talked about here to solve things like 'hugging cacti' are simple band-aids that do not fix the underlying problems.

I think we live in different universes.

Yes there is a mod that changes lbd to XP in skyrim, but in my experience did it never gain any traction bc ppl thought why streamline such a good system.

Yes it had exploits, but so does every game/progression system. That doesn't mean the system is bad, only the execution.

I am actually shocked right now that s1 like you exists

 

[RestInPieces]

If anything, the MASSIVE number of mods that tried, and utterly failed, to temper the grinding aspects and game breaking aspects from the progression system in that game proves that the 'solutions' talked about here to solve things like 'hugging cacti' are simple band-aids that do not fix the underlying problems.

Perhaps you utterly failed to find the right ones or the right combination of mods that did that? Or didn't care enough to try, since you obviously don't like the system? Just saying.

Spent more hours modding Skyrim than I am comfortable to admit (spent weeks modding it before I started a playthrough every time I installed it) and I've found more than enough mods that fix Skyrim's LBD to perfection. Only CCO + Requiem alone are enough to fix and balance a large part of the LBD, make it feel completely natural, and there are plenty of other mods which add random diminishing returns and help create a proper item economy.

 

[caatalyst]

LBD focuses the player's attention on progression bars and point farming. Some LBD proponents will claim that it helps you play more organically and yet when I suggested that people could play organically by doing some repetitive work in the category before spending the perk point to get that same feeling those same people weren't interested. LBD is for those who like to reduce the game to spreadsheets and progress bars and those who will set their macros to more conveniently rush through the progression and gain the advantage over others on the server.
Yes, the example of hugging cacti is ridiculous but the example is an exaggeration of a very real problem. People will do unnatural things or take repetitive actions they aren't really interested in doing for the sake of filling a blue bar. What really DOES happen is someone who would normally stop chopping wood once they have enough will do it more if they check and see they are close to improving their bar. So now you've stopped playing the actual game and are playing the fill-the-bar game.

As long as there is xp earned by actions there will be a distraction and an artificial gaminess whenever players pull themselves out of the ongoing story of survival to "work on stats and check their numbers to see if they're close" Common pool is not as addictive in this regard as LBD. Even proponents of LBD admit and like to brag that the dopamine hits are best via LBD...

I've really enjoyed playing without xp and can't at this point imagine myself returning to playing the game with xp. I actually played the game without a hint of xp for 13 Alphas and now getting rid of xp has really made the game feel as if it has found its roots. I always considered the progression system as garnish for the main course of living and surviving in an apocalyptic world of zombies and not the point of the game. I think that LBD is such a powerfully addictive and rewarding progression system for its own sake that it steals the focus of the main game and becomes the whole point of playing for those who are most attracted to it.

This is why I think it is best that it is gone from the vanilla game. However, I do hope that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it.

I'm sorry this is just simply not true.

I much prefered the learn by doing system and I couldn't stand to play the game like its a spreadsheet simulator.

The reason LBD is a much better system for players like myself is that it creates a sense of achievement. You practice in something and you get better at it and then you see the results as you go out in the world. This is lost with the new system because your actions are no longer directly tied to your character progression. Players enjoy learn by doing because it creates immersive game play and that's why it feels organic / natural which surely is what you want in a survival game?

A15 was the peak - While spam crafting was a bit of a technical problem, it was one of many things you could do say during the evening to progress. I literally used to map out my days and think about how I was going to make my character better during A15. While A16 lost a lot of the charm that A15 had it was still a fair middle ground.

In A17 I was sat in my base and night just thinking... Well what do I do now?

 

[Roland]

In A17 I was sat in my base and night just thinking... Well what do I do now?

For one, stop sitting in your base and go outside. The stealth system works perfectly. There is very little danger to getting stuff done outdoors.

 

[Dimpy]

If you're the kind of person who likes to consciously "build" a character with a predetermined mix of stats and skills, LBD is going to feel very tedious because you are "forced" into doing specific actions to build the specific skills you want. However, if you're the kind of person who doesn't like to build a character, LBD is great because it doesn't force you to spend any time in a menu reading descriptions, or using math spreadsheets to decide what mix of perks is the best or most fun; just do what you want and LBD automatically makes doing those things easier.

 

[Tete1805]

I think that the reason wellness was removed is the same reason LBD was removed: it didn't fit with the vision MM had for the game.To me, the idea behind the new perk system is to force you to choose a play style over another.

And investing points in you max health/stamina is a path as well.

Do you want to have max health and take damage like a tank or max stamina so you can run when in a pinch?

Is this more important to you than crafting advanced recipes?

Or maybe you prefer to be a gardener and self-sustain?

I guess this is to stress the importance of the choice you make regarding your points.

I'm posting this as well since I think it's related.

If I'm correct, then I understand why MM did it (even though I still don't like it as it is now).

 

[Viktoriusiii]

For one, stop sitting in your base and go outside. The stealth system works perfectly. There is very little danger to getting stuff done outdoors.

I get ambushed by zombies on daytime when i hit a ressource twice xD

I don'T know if it has something to do with difficulty (it shouldnt) but they always come from behind me

Also its quite unintuitive to do work at night. I (and all my friends and players i met) never thought "oh lets stay outside at night" its always "its already 7:30 om lets head home to be safe!"

but when in A16 there was always things to be done like crafting, repairing, building, cooking or digging a mine, now it feels like crafting is unecessary because repairing has no downsides now, repairing blocks is also basicially not needed because without upgrades, they will just shred it within 5 seconds anyways, building also is unviable (either use blade traps and killcorridors or be prepared to face them at 0:00 no matter how many walls are between your and the outside), cooking is allright i guess but i think we all know it needs a rework as bacon and eggs are more than enough forever and digging a mine always took ages, but with zombies beeing able to dig down and their speed at which they can do so, this has become a big nono at night as well.

Some things might work (like mining at night) but it doesnt feel natural.

The game tells me night is dangerous and mining attracts Z's. So logicially speaking mining is discouraged.

 

[hotpoon]

If you're the kind of person who likes to consciously "build" a character with a predetermined mix of stats and skills, LBD is going to feel very tedious because you are "forced" into doing specific actions to build the specific skills you want. However, if you're the kind of person who doesn't like to build a character, LBD is great because it doesn't force you to spend any time in a menu reading descriptions, or using math spreadsheets to decide what mix of perks is the best or most fun; just do what you want and LBD automatically makes doing those things easier.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I detest when I'm playing something like Path of Exile, and someone asks me what 'build' I'm using. I tell people I play for fun. I have no interest in following some paint by numbers build worked out by some min/maxer.

 

[RipClaw]

That actually makes a lot of sense. I detest when I'm playing something like Path of Exile, and someone asks me what 'build' I'm using. I tell people I play for fun. I have no interest in following some paint by numbers build worked out by some min/maxer.

It's the same for me. I see no sense in imposing restrictions on oneself by specializing.

In A16 I ended up leveling at least athletics, scavenging, construction tools, mining tools, blunt weapons, archery and rifles to maximum. There is no build that would cover this.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

It's the same for me. I see no sense in imposing restrictions on oneself by specializing.In A16 I ended up leveling at least athletics, scavenging, construction tools, mining tools, blunt weapons, archery and rifles to maximum. There is no build that would cover this.

I brought that up with MM. In single player as the game stands at the moment, you kinda need to be spread out in many areas to have a comfortable game. He states that players will not need to do this in the new system. No matter what you choose, you will still be capable, just in different ways. That's cool, but I always heard that one main reason for changes in the skill system was because it was a nightmare to balance. I'm seeing this going in a way that could be even harder to balance, especially in a PVP sense. Not my problem.

 

[xXBadDreamXx]

this game got me to play literally thousands of hours because it had replayability and it wasnt a chore to start a new game or play multiple games at the same time...now i played to level 150 and got bored when the cap is supposed to be 300 and i dread the thought of grinding through a new game. is this at all telling of how the new mechanics are working out?

 

[FA_Q2]

I think we live in different universes.Yes there is a mod that changes lbd to XP in skyrim, but in my experience did it never gain any traction bc ppl thought why streamline such a good system.

Yes it had exploits, but so does every game/progression system. That doesn't mean the system is bad, only the execution.

I am actually shocked right now that s1 like you exists

Shocked that someone thinks the progression system in TES was horrific? Seriously? It is broken as hell and always has been.

TES progression doesn't just have exploits - that is ALL it is. Nothing but grinding. How many daggers does the smithing player make? Or, if you use one of the many, many, many mods that try and fix this - how much useless jewelry do they create? How many enchanted daggers does the enchanter make?

And if you don't mindlessly grind those, all those perk trees are simply pointless - you will flatly never make enough of anything with them to level it past 10.

Every skill is broken in a similar manner with but a very select few that are even capable of progressing in a natural and non grinding manner.

I am equally shocked that anyone, and I really do mean anyone, can look at the progression system in any TES game and think that it is even remotely acceptable let alone good. The progression system is likely the single largest reason that kills every one of my games - it gets pointlessly boring at some point because it is so damn artificial.

 

[FA_Q2]

Perhaps you utterly failed to find the right ones or the right combination of mods that did that? Or didn't care enough to try, since you obviously don't like the system? Just saying.
Spent more hours modding Skyrim than I am comfortable to admit (spent weeks modding it before I started a playthrough every time I installed it) and I've found more than enough mods that fix Skyrim's LBD to perfection. Only CCO + Requiem alone are enough to fix and balance a large part of the LBD, make it feel completely natural, and there are plenty of other mods which add random diminishing returns and help create a proper item economy.

No, I tried. At a bare minimum I have to have at least 30 mods installed just to make the game playable. I used to use well over a hundred but stability becomes a large issue - particularly when the game decided it was just going to update itself and break my mods. And no, CCO + Requiem do not 'fix' the LBD problems - they make them MORE grindy in a vain attempt at solving problems that are fundamental to a LBD system. The real repairs with those MODS (well requiem at least) is that you are do not become god in 2 hours and some of those really broken skills like alchemy and enchanting are no longer instant I win buttons.

The problem with TES LBD is NOT item economy or level speed - things that you pointed to with random diminishing returns and help create a proper item economy. The problem is that the player is boxed into progressing using actions that are not intrinsic to game play.

 

[Eyegore]

Shocked that someone thinks the progression system in TES was horrific? Seriously? It is broken as hell and always has been.
TES progression doesn't just have exploits - that is ALL it is. Nothing but grinding. How many daggers does the smithing player make? Or, if you use one of the many, many, many mods that try and fix this - how much useless jewelry do they create? How many enchanted daggers does the enchanter make?

And if you don't mindlessly grind those, all those perk trees are simply pointless - you will flatly never make enough of anything with them to level it past 10.

Every skill is broken in a similar manner with but a very select few that are even capable of progressing in a natural and non grinding manner.

I am equally shocked that anyone, and I really do mean anyone, can look at the progression system in any TES game and think that it is even remotely acceptable let alone good. The progression system is likely the single largest reason that kills every one of my games - it gets pointlessly boring at some point because it is so damn artificial.

How many pieces of armor do you think a master armorer needs to make to become a master? I'm thinking, realistically, hundreds at least, which is what Skyrim's system emulates. We don't just jump from novice to master without making anything but perk choices. That's how Neo from the Matrix learns skills, but to me, Learn By Doing has always made more sense.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

How many pieces of armor do you think a master armorer needs to make to become a master? I'm thinking, realistically, hundreds at least, which is what Skyrim's system emulates. We don't just jump from novice to master without making anything but perk choices. That's how Neo from the Matrix learns skills, but to me, Learn By Doing has always made more sense.

basicially this.

@Fa_Q2:

Skyrim is not a PvP experience. If you want to grind your levels, you can.

But even then... I had 100000 but still smithing at 60 because of the missing materials. (btw the dagger exploit has been fixed, same with potions).

But lets say you could grind. For example you can exploit followers so you can slevel up sneak to 100 day 1.

Now you have sneak 100. Great. Are you having fun? Maybe you want to play a masterassasin. So you can do this.

But it is a chore. But you are rewarded for the chore. You have no PvP so having a lvl 100 char day 1 doesnt hurt others. And as long as you enjoy it, its your choice.

But do you know this image?

How many pieces of armor do you think a master armorer needs to make to become a master? I'm thinking, realistically, hundreds at least, which is what Skyrim's system emulates. We don't just jump from novice to master without making anything but perk choices. That's how Neo from the Matrix learns skills, but to me, Learn By Doing has always made more sense.

basicially this.

@Fa_Q2:

Skyrim is not a PvP experience. If you want to grind your levels, you can.

But even then... I had 100000 but still smithing at 60 because of the missing materials. (btw the dagger exploit has been fixed, same with potions).

But lets say you could grind. For example you can exploit followers so you can slevel up sneak to 100 day 1.

Now you have sneak 100. Great. Are you having fun? Maybe you want to play a masterassasin. So you can do this.

But it is a chore. But you are rewarded for the chore. You have no PvP so having a lvl 100 char day 1 doesnt hurt others. And as long as you enjoy it, its your choice.

But do you know this image?



Sure go and smith yourself to lvl 100 but you wont find the deadra hearts to use it and meanwhile the enemies got stronger.

You CAN do it. But even if you CAN you aren't brokenly overpowered.

Don't get me wrong. The balance in Skyrim is laughable. But that has something to do with skills and enemy scalings (endless fireball stun for example or 100000 damage sneakattack or summoned dremora lord) and not with the LBD system, which is overall pretty well balanced (once the more obvious exploits were gone).

You can simply walk through the world and do stuff and become better at it.

It feels rewarding to have gone trhrough hordes of enemies and now be able to use your Longsword to decapitate enemies.

It is by no means perfect and Perkoverhauls are plenty. But all of them build upon the LBD system.

And it works great! The perks and the balance of the rest of the game is just lacking.

 

[Kubikus]

What the replacement of the LBD-system with the perk system did was simply removing a diversified "grind" with a unified one. Before, you'd "grind" a dozen different activities, now you can reduce that to a single one.

I don't think that the reason really is that the devs think their game has such boring activities that the player has to be protected from having to perform them. Perks are simply easier to design and balance. Many recent design decisions have that background in my very humble opinion. The new methods are not "better", they are just more convenient for the devs.

 

[RestInPieces]

No, I tried. At a bare minimum I have to have at least 30 mods installed just to make the game playable. I used to use well over a hundred but stability becomes a large issue - particularly when the game decided it was just going to update itself and break my mods. And no, CCO + Requiem do not 'fix' the LBD problems - they make them MORE grindy in a vain attempt at solving problems that are fundamental to a LBD system. The real repairs with those MODS (well requiem at least) is that you are do not become god in 2 hours and some of those really broken skills like alchemy and enchanting are no longer instant I win buttons.
The problem with TES LBD is NOT item economy or level speed - things that you pointed to with random diminishing returns and help create a proper item economy. The problem is that the player is boxed into progressing using actions that are not intrinsic to game play.

In general, used at the very least 200+ mods for various gameplay areas - never said CCO + Requiem fixed all of the LBD problems - still had to use merchant/economy overhauls and other kinds of mods - but even alone they still fix a lot of LBD's shortcomings.

With CCO + Requiem you just can't raise your skill, because you simply don't have enough materials. You literally can't grind because resources are scarce and recipes are expensive. You can just make a few items/mine because the smelted bars need way more ore. Unless you have visited most mines in the world, have stashed the ore and you are incredibly rich and suddenly decide to raise e.g. blacksmithing you have kept at 0 all this time. Also enchanting/alchemy were very expensive skills to raise - with my mod setup, it was only possible to slowly raise them throughout the progression and only if you heavily invested in them.

A good economy can fix everything - you can't grind what you don't have.

he problem is that the player is boxed into progressing using actions that are not intrinsic to game play.

They are neither intrinsic nor obligatory - so I don't see how the player's progression is "boxed". You can play and progress any way you want. Besides, when it comes to crafting skills, since with all these mods you are only able to slowly level them throughout your progression like I described earlier, they don't even feel like main ways of progression like they do in the vanilla game - they mostly feel than minor complimentary skills.

What the replacement of the LBD-system with the perk system did was simply removing a diversified "grind" with a unified one. Before, you'd "grind" a dozen different activities, now you can reduce that to a single one.

Exactly, don't know why more people can't see that.

I don't think that the reason really is that the devs think their game has such boring activities that the player has to be protected from having to perform them.

In general a large part of the game designer's job is exactly that - to protect players from ruining their own experience - they really have to. I this case though, I think that they did the opposite - saying "you can level however you want and master anything you want", because "freedom" is a great thing /s. So it's no wonder players use the single most efficient activity and repeat it ad nauseam in order to master everything and later complain that "the game is a zombie/mining grind". They actually should have protected the players from that one.