PC It's all gone wrong, terribly wrong.

Bottom line, if you dont like quests, dont do them.  If you want to craft more, loot less of the big boxes pois provide.  The wasteland is hard as heck and I love it for the excitement so make a base there and you will never be bored LOL.  We have all played this game for years and not payed another cent.  For me, I have over 4000 hours in it and it has by far payed for its worth.  Thank you fun pimps for making this an amazing game for "most".  Peace ❤️


Trader quests become tedious quickly, so I dont do them (rarely use traders for that matter) All lower tier weapons work fine anything better found is a bonus. Scavenging will always be more fun than just buying. Surprised we havent had "Make all top gear available at vending machines from start" yet....... Oh god!!! What have I done??? Nnnnuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!


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Can we please drop the whole "lol just don't use it if you don't like it" argument? I think that traders and quests are blatantly overpowered but I'm not looking for a challenge run. The "lol just don't use it" approach imo leads to stagnation of the game.

 
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I agree with a lot of what OP said, as it harkens to what I feel I burn out on frequently when I take my breaks or just boot up another world for. A lot of what I felt when reading that was "that feels like a better game in concept", to wit I immediately reminded myself of how similar it feels to all of the circlejerking around A16. I need to boot an A16 profile just because I missed that boat. 

There are some massive elements I can agree with, but one I completely disagree with is that it has not gone "wrong, terribly wrong". Allow me to be the thorn: Fun. 

I've had a ton of fun with this game through its many shapes and changes and this is a factor I think goes out with the tide in nitpicking as we all know the creators have a keen ear to our taste. When I asked for lockpicks, I got them. I was happy. It was an implement I had wanted for a while and I can't look a gift horse in the mouth when I find 12 in a trashcan and I wonder to myself "how realistic is this?" while I then use said lockpicks to open a roll tumbler safe. The game is a wash with concessions for gameplay and I find myself feeling distant from the community for being so irate over one detail only to move onto the next thing to worry about. 

I don't think anyone who has been with this game long term is going to ever be content. Ever. It's full of change, and what's going to happen is alienation. One will become smitten with how it was either presented to them as is, or how it then became and become wildly attached only to learn that too was transitory and short lived. When it finally reaches gold we will see a wash of new people who know it as it is then, and they'll encounter us: the oldies. Some will be confused and some will be like "oh there were bees? Bring those back!" and it will always be a mash of wants and wishes...

I've had a boatload of fun and gotten more than my dollar's worth. My nitpicks or wishes are where I feel personally appropriate. I want to know what will make the game more fun for myself and others, knowing we're not looking back but going to change again. I know some things left behind are what was fun for us, but I can still have fun now.

 
I think many people on this forum see the game as fun. I know I do and I figure we wouldn't be here if we didn't. I just want it to be an even better version of itself.

 
Oh, I am totally for designed restrictions on questing. But saying so usually brings a lot of irritated people out of the woodwork ranting about people forcing their playstyle on others. I know the quote and believe in it wholeheartedly. But as long as the devs leave it to me, I'm capable of self-limiting and so I do. But I think there should be a game mechanism that limits for sure.


Hey @Roland, do you know if designed restrictions are on their radar or being talked about?   Like you I try to limit myself but my coop partner wants to keep questing over and over.  Would be nice to say... sorry.. we can't.  

How about a "length of time between quests" with an eventual slider in the options? 

 
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Lmao its the big red button all over again!


Greetings, fellow connoisseur of fine culture!
button-shiny-red-button.gif


 
Hey @Roland, do you know if designed restrictions are on their radar or being talked about?   Like you I try to limit myself but my coop partner wants to keep questing over and over.  Would be nice to say... sorry.. we can't.  

How about a "length of time between quests" with an eventual slider in the options? 
I haven’t heard anything. I don’t think it’s something they are currently planning to do. It’s been brought up in the past but hasn’t really caught any traction as something that needs to be done. 

 
Well, since we're now arguing about weapons and perks let me pitch my idea for like the 3rd time. I'd appreciate hearing what you guys think about it.

What do you think about a change that would remove damage bonuses from combat perks and some weapon mods (things like scopes, extended mags, etc)? Instead, perks would only increase/provide things like reload speed, rate of fire, crits, etc. Basically just removing the +damage% from perks and keeping the rest as is.
To be honest, I really like the fact that my gun gets a bit stronger no matter what I add. I think that without the dps bonus some mods would just be ignored. 
 

What is your reasoning for wanting a change like this? If it happened I’d adapt just fine but I can’t say that it is a change I would push for. 
 

The change in weapons I would push for would be diminishing health from repairs until the weapon is only good for scrap. I think eternal guns harm the game and diminish the crafting and looting game. 
 

I don’t see a small dps bump from a mod having a very big impact which is why it wouldn’t necessarily bug me if they took it away. But why?

 
Can we please drop the whole "lol just don't use it if you don't like it" argument? I think that traders and quests are blatantly overpowered but I'm not looking for a challenge run. The "lol just don't use it" approach imo leads to stagnation of the game.


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          So whats your approach, using every single element of every single game? You choose what points go where, playstyle, weapons, tools, armour etc etc etc but its too hard to choose to ignore something irrelevant when every choice you make ignores large parts of the rest of the game/playstyle. Hardly a considered approach is it?

 
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To be honest, I really like the fact that my gun gets a bit stronger no matter what I add. I think that without the dps bonus some mods would just be ignored. 
 

What is your reasoning for wanting a change like this? If it happened I’d adapt just fine but I can’t say that it is a change I would push for. 
 

The change in weapons I would push for would be diminishing health from repairs until the weapon is only good for scrap. I think eternal guns harm the game and diminish the crafting and looting game. 
 

I don’t see a small dps bump from a mod having a very big impact which is why it wouldn’t necessarily bug me if they took it away. But why?
I'll talk about mods first, then about perks.

I'll be THAT guy and say that it just doesn't make any sense. Why does slapping a scope on my gun give it +dmg? I get that It'S JuSt a GamE", but imo the suspension of disbelief can only go so far. To clarify, if they did remove the bonus, I wouldn't be against having a weapon mod that would just straight up add damage for a cost of a mod slot (if they add it, they better call it "High Quality Parts"). I'm just saying that mods should probably make some sense.
You said that some weapon mods would be ignored if not for their innate damage bonus. The thing is, they are "ignored" right now. They just serve as filler mods until a "good" mod is found/crafted. Keeping the dmg+ doesn't solve anything, @%$# mods are still @%$#.

Now about perks, they also (mostly) don't make sense. If I shoot a gun the first time vs 1000th time and hit the same spot, a bullet should still cause the same amount of damage. Why does spending a perk point give my bullets some esoteric power? Now, weapon handling is a totally different thing. Someone who is good with guns (a.k.a. 5/5 perk points invested) would for sure reload quicker, aimed better, etc.
Melee is a different story. After thinking about it, the damage bonus in melee perks should probably stay. It makes sense after all, if I'm good at swinging something I'll probably cause more damage. I get that it'd probably be a balancing hell though. That's why if the only option would be to remove damage bonuses from both melee and ranged perks, I'd totally take it.

As for the overall "why", I figure a change like that would make weapons more equal and would let people mix and match weapons some more, plus "backup" weapons would be more viable. This is an idea I've gotten after making my post about removing attributes.

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So whats your approach, using every single element of every single game? You choose what points go where, playstyle, weapons, tools, armour etc etc etc but its too hard to choose to ignore something irrelevant when every choice you make ignores large parts of the rest of the game/playstyle. Hardly a considered approach is it?
Uhh, yes? All game elements are supposed to be used. Huh?
Also, I don't remember saying anything about perks(?) It's obvious that making a build is supposed to make you better at certain things while making you worse at others. I'm not sure what you're arguing about here.

All I meant was that we shouldn't just ignore broken/overpowered/underpowered things in the game with a simple "just don't use it".

 
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I'm just saying that mods should probably make some sense.
I understand your POV now, thanks. I’m not so married to reality as you. 
 

As for the overall "why", I figure a change like that would make weapons more equal and would let people mix and match weapons some more, plus "backup" weapons would be more viable.
This is something I am personally against. I don’t want the weapons to be equal and I think any of the weapons is already good enough to be a backup or to use instead of the one you perked into. 

 
Novamourne said:
<snip>
There's a lot there.

Quests - 
Way too lucrative and way too often. 


Agreed, but—and I saw your objection to the "just don't use it" response, I'm disagreeing with that here—I don't really see a problem with TFP trying to keep the looter-shooter-errand-boy players happy,  anybody wants a beatemup, we gotcher beatemup right here!,  so long as they also keep no-trader personal-competence-and-thinking-required play within reach, you know, the survival and crafting part.

Game Stage - 
Game stage scaled the world to you. […]Game Stage should not make sure you are powerful enough to do anything you want, but that's what it does.


I absolutely love games where "run for your life!" starts out among your best options. Games that carefully ensure every offered fight is winnable are difficult for me to talk about politely. So yeah.

Skills - 

I thought skills would be a lot different than they are. I thought everyone would be able to progress through everything and I thought it was going to serve as more of a "mastery" of tasks and actions.


Full-on ewwww to the game you thought you were getting.  I mean, sure, for easy mode, whatever. Rush the tech tree and regard everything before everybody has all the toys as tutorial. That couldn't possibly be more boring in a game this good. Cooperating teams of specialists *rock*, and you want to make that a niche little sideshow. I want to make that the only way to thrive on a hard-mode server, and it should be (barely) possible to survive if you're smart about your perk choices solo.

Screamers & Heat Map -
Nothing killed this games crafting and production aspect faster and more efficiently than this atrocious mechanic.


What? Dig a shaft 35m straight down and put your workshop down there, if you can't do that by day 3 you're doing something very wrong. A one-block shaft is perfectly navigable once you figure out how to wriggle free if you get stuck, you only need ladders every other block. I think activity should be *more* dangerous, to the point where if it's just you mining and at all exposed you'd damned well better have set traps at the higher difficulties, and if you make big bangy noise in an un-cleared town, oh, baby, you're going to die.

Gun parts created a parity between crafting and looting which doesn't exist at all in today's version of the game.
Not sure it was the gun parts that did it, but I hear you. Way I see it, as the difficulty cranks up you should be forced to rely more and more on personal skill and perception and strategy, less and less on tech-tree progression and looting.

"Smart" & "Gimmick" zombies -
You are losing the arms race and have been since you decided to enter it. Please give up. Players will always outsmart your AI.[…]Gore blocks were an infinitely better zombie threat than anything you've put in the game thus far and you removed them without trying to iterate on it at all. Get rid of the stupid demo zombies. Bring back gore blocks.


Sort-of agreed there except the demo zombies are a stroke of genius. In my dream version of this game playing on  harder settings should make it feel increasingly like Devil Daggers, it's not a question of whether, only when, and personal skill is by far the most important factor.

I think they're still iterating on the pathing, not sure it's possible to build the game they really want to build using any current game engine so it's always going to be the best compromise they can find. World War Z style gore piles would be terrifying. I'd *love* to see that mechanic boosted in 7dtd. As it is it's just a hint, it seems almost unintentional.

 
This is something I am personally against. I don’t want the weapons to be equal and I think any of the weapons is already good enough to be a backup or to use instead of the one you perked into. 
Yeah man, nothing beats emptying a double barrel into a zombie's face only for it to get up :v. Meanwhile, I can 1-hit the same zombie with a 9mm because perks.

 
Yeah man, nothing beats emptying a double barrel into a zombie's face only for it to get up :v. Meanwhile, I can 1-hit the same zombie with a 9mm because perks.


Yes, because with your perked up skills you are able not only to make a headshot but hit it through the eye directly into the brain 😉

This would be a similar explanation to what AD&D uses to explain the rogues additional damage.

 
Ok but like... my crosshair points to (roughly) the same spot :v


Bad luck, all the pellets went into the skull. If a lucky few go through the eye you'll notice it because then the head explodes prematurely 😉

The difference between an RPG and a shooter game is that in an RPG your characters and the weapons stats define how good you are, while in a shooter it is mostly about the skill of the player.

And this game is partly an RPG. There are also shooter-elements in this genre-mix of a game so the players skill has a big influence as well

 
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And this game is partly an RPG. There are also shooter-elements in this genre-mix of a game so the players skill has a big influence as well
And that's great, have perks affect/add accuracy, reload speed, fire rate, recoil, scope-in speed, draw speed, etc. Hell, I'll even tolerate crits/killstreaks and the like since they're not just a flat +dmg, but as you said this game is also partly a shooter so a well aimed shot should do consistent damage.

Bad luck, all the pellets went into the skull. If a lucky few go through the eye you'll notice it because then the head explodes prematurely
I may not be a doctor, but I figure that brain damage is worse than eye damage :v

 
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And that's great, have perks affect/add accuracy, reload speed, fire rate, recoil, scope-in speed, draw speed, etc. Hell, I'll even tolerate crits/killstreaks and the like since they're not just a flat +dmg, but as you said this game is also partly a shooter so a well aimed shot should do consistent damage.


It does. If you hit the head you get consistently more damage with any weapon. The rest is the RPG simulation of your character getting better at shooting.

You are aware that when you shoot in 7D2D you don't hit the cross, you hit randomly anywhere in the circle defined by the slowly shrinking crosshairs?

You yourself could be able to hit any pixel on your PC screen at any time and you still could miss a zombie at a distance because some part of the circle is not directly on the zombie. All of this is part of the RPG design of 7D2D

Why must it be damage? I would say because damage IS the most important stat of a weapon and RPG players want the good bits as well as the shooter fans.

I may not be a doctor, but I figure that brain damage is worse than eye damage :v


I definitely am not a doctor, but simply by looking at a skull I see that the brain is protected by the bones except for the eye sockets. Sorry I forgot to mention why I thought it was important to hit the eye.

Consider that zombies have bones that can digg through steel, maybe those bones protect them as well.

 
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It does. If you hit the head you get consistently more damage with any weapon. The rest is the RPG simulation of your character getting better at shooting.
You know damn well I'm arguing about a completely different thing. I'll reiterate for the Nth time, a bullet shot from the same gun hitting the same spot should do the same amount of damage wether shot by a skinny nerdlinger or a war vet.

You are aware that when you shoot in 7D2D you don't hit the cross, you hit randomly anywhere in the circle defined by the slowly shrinking crosshairs?
Yes, that's how the majority of FPS games work, I think.

You yourself could be able to hit any pixel on your PC screen at any time and you still could miss a zombie at a distance because some part of the circle is not directly on the zombie. All of this is part of the RPG design of 7D2D
CS:GO is now RPG I guess. Anyway, you're talking about (in)accuracy and I've agreed that it should be improved by perks.

Why must it be damage? I would say because damage IS the most important stat of a weapon and RPG players want the good bits as well as the shooter fans.
Nobody is going to kidnap your RPG, I like RPGs myself. Combat perks would still be worth investing into even without the +dmg, or are you saying that those other bonuses don't matter?

My point is that with perks as they are now, there is no point in using anything off-attribute (except bombs and stun baton). Yes you CAN use weapons outside of your build as I'm sure someone will cleverly point out, but what's the point? You're just short changing yourself for no reason. The only motivation behind it would be TO ROLEPLAY, and ironically our current (apparently) very RPG perk system discourages it. That and shotguns are must-have on a garbage PC.

 
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