PC Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?

Doesn't really matter what you call it, having safe places would remove even more tension.


I would rather say that a safe area increases the tension when you have to leave it. There are always habituation effects when you are exposed to a situation for too long.

If you live in the destroyed biome, you quickly get used to the background noise and the lighting that is supposed to be scary. But if you live in the green biome and only visit the wasteland when you have to, it's a completely different experience.

 
I would rather say that a safe area increases the tension when you have to leave it. There are always habituation effects when you are exposed to a situation for too long.

If you live in the destroyed biome, you quickly get used to the background noise and the lighting that is supposed to be scary. But if you live in the green biome and only visit the wasteland when you have to, it's a completely different experience.


Good point. Though the ability to create a base that is except for one night a week practically as safe as your real-life home already does that. And it is a bit extreme if you actually can create a safe zone almost anywhere in a few seconds.

 
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Obviously then RE is not "a typical game where all buildings and floors are unpassable" either.

Or is it? Can you dig or break walls everywhere or just in some specific places in RE? If the latter, then what has it do to with my argument?

And a scripted zombie kid killing here mother with whatever tool is an anecdote of some kind but again has nothing to to with the topic.

So PFFFFF back with a vengeance 😁

And many horror movies have no real horror left for people who watch a lot of horror stuff. Still works for some. Doesn't really matter what you call it, having safe places would remove even more tension.
1. it was joke about crashing walls. Well zombies in 7dtd are true rock punchers XDD Btw only similiar game to 7dtd is vanaheim - but even there destroing thing by enemy is more resticted - most enemies can destroing only player made blocks. Only some of them can destroing everything.

2. IT HAVE TO THIS TOPIC BECAUSE.... romeo reference must be used XD btw a little bit offtopic but ... . In DL1 you have zombies using hammers, planks and zombie childrens ( screamers) . In DL2 don't have this but they have tons of bandits damn this so boring xd. In dl1 they are much rarer xd

Well  i think now there is two types of horror in mainstream : focused on gore and focused of lore

 
1. it was joke about crashing walls. Well zombies in 7dtd are true rock punchers XDD Btw only similiar game to 7dtd is vanaheim - but even there destroing thing by enemy is more resticted - most enemies can destroing only player made blocks. Only some of them can destroing everything.

2. IT HAVE TO THIS TOPIC BECAUSE.... romeo reference must be used XD btw a little bit offtopic but ... . In DL1 you have zombies using hammers, planks and zombie childrens ( screamers) . In DL2 don't have this but they have tons of bandits damn this so boring xd. In dl1 they are much rarer xd

Well  i think now there is two types of horror in mainstream : focused on gore and focused of lore


"planks"?. --- 3. Damn matt115! now i want 7dtd in pirate setting. 😁

(At least the above assoziation seems comprehensible. How you got from my post to ww2 is still a complete mystery to me) 😉

 
"planks"?. --- 3. Damn matt115! now i want 7dtd in pirate setting. 😁

(At least the above assoziation seems comprehensible. How you got from my post to ww2 is still a complete mystery to me) 😉
damnn nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I hate water!!!!! 😭 i 

i watched  one time gameplay from subnautica with chulthulu mod and i was feeling so uncomfortable for all day 😅

Well my mind is soo random even  for me sometimes - quick example: newsstands -> horror game in victorian setting being something between little nighmares and horizon zero dawn. how?? this is simple  - newsstands are quiet basic shops with everything. This is similar to colonial shops from pre-ww2 period. Colonial shops - England. what is famouse and connected with England? Books- romeo and julia , olivier twist. Olivier twist? orphan. Orphan? orphanages. It was quiet good level in painkiller and could be perfect begining place for horror game right?  what is popular game about running away kid? little nighmares , and popular game about victorian period orphan? alice madness return.

So mix both characters from this game - barefoot girl in dress. But ww2 period? strange machines! So? KONFIKT 47. Konfikt 47? - british automatons.  But colonies so... bows!

that's how you get  idea to make game about rich girl whose parents die became poor orphan after her uncle intrigue. She ran away after something from orphanage in prologe and now she is huting automatons in London using bow.

Another one! 

Pirates -> game about kiling krakens etc  in space. 

How?? 

easy

pirates-> pirates of the caribbean -> krakens -> moon brothers from dead space 3 -> make game about hunting gigantic monster in void.

Damn i'm crazy sometimes

give me anything and i can give you fresh game idea 😂

 
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Man. Step away for a moment and the topic suddenly turned to talk about….planks? lol

Anyway thanks all for sharing in this topic. I can understand why some never want the option for digging to become a player controlled option and that it should be something all zombies normally do. But I still stand by my opinion that it should be a player option, just like feral sense was made an option the player can turn off and on. Imagine if feral sense became the new unchangeable way that zombies behaved. Any new player, and even some veteran players would have to rock Romero esque settings (i.e. every zombie walks no matter what situation) just to be able to deal.

We’ve focused only on being underground in the base during a Blood Moon when it comes to digging, but the situation goes beyond that. If one is above ground, since Zombies have the acute (and unnecessary) ability to know exactly where the weakest point in the base is, watch as a group suddenly decides that they want bypass the wide open pathways into the base and dig underneath it so that they can reach the one cobblestone block that was overlooked during the upgrading process and break through it.

Also zombies can, will, and do dig outside of a Blood Moon. In both scenarios Zombies will dig their way around and under obstacles, such as spikes, fences, or game built barbed wiring. Remember how one used to be able to go all the way down to bedrock level and build an area for all of the heat using items to avoid unnecessary visits from the Screamer? She can now somehow STILL sense heat coming from that far down in the earth and will happily dig her way down to the source.

Please Fun Pimps can we get the option to turn digging off and on like all the other zombie related stuff? One of the many things I like about this

game is the ability to create my own experience, from a Romero-esque one (i.e. everything walks no matter what) up to a full throttle World War Z experience (i.e. feral sense is on and everything moves at max speed). Feral sense wasn’t forced onto the players and digging shouldn’t be forced either. Those who want it on will keep it on and those who want it off (like me) can turn it off. Who is it hurting to make this happen? Everyone wins.

 
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...Imagine if feral sense became the new unchangeable way that zombies behaved....


I have a better example: Imagine there was a bug in A25 that zombies could turn only right, not left. And after TFP fixed the bug for A26 with lots and lots of AI changes some players complained that the game was so much better for them when zombies only turned right.

I somehow doubt that TFP would expend development effort and option settings for this even if there were some players asking for it. Game developers don't like too many options because they have to support and test for all combinations of option settings. They tend to be very selective about them.

 
I have a better example: Imagine there was a bug in A25 that zombies could turn only right, not left. And after TFP fixed the bug for A26 with lots and lots of AI changes some players complained that the game was so much better for them when zombies only turned right.

I somehow doubt that TFP would expend development effort and option settings for this even if there were some players asking for it. Game developers don't like too many options because they have to support and test for all combinations of option settings. They tend to be very selective about them.
I'd have to argue that a bug is a much different animal than something that was actually coded into the game to be an actual behavior.

And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game. That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced, how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced, and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior? Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.

 
I'd have to argue that a bug is a much different animal than something that was actually coded into the game to be an actual behavior.


As far as I have heard the story of digging zombies it went this way: 7days originally already had zombies that could dig and they turned it off for some alphas because it didn't work like they wanted. That is why I think this case has more similarity to a bug than to a new play modus that was added to make the world look more alive.

And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.


Well, actually a lot of people complained about the world feeling empty and the devs made clear that they didn't like that situation either but were constrained by performance. Feral option was one way to combat that. So actually feral sense was something the developers wanted and a lot of players wanted.

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game. That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced, how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced, and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 


This is called balancing and is done while developing any game. A game works well and is well balanced if the more effort the player invests the more he gets out. "Features" that give the player safety without effort are not a good balance in a game where survival is a goal.

A game needs this balance to have a long "life". Why do you think Blizzard took so many pains to balance their games so painstackingly? Why do you think those games were so popular and stayed relevant for so long?

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior? Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.


If I remember correctly, Faatal (who remade the AI for A17) said the no-digging feature would have to be developed anew. I assume this means that he changed the way the AI worked from ground up and that the old code you assume still existing is gone (Maybe he even said this himself, don't know)

To me it doesn't really matter. The no-dig option is for me what the feral-sense option is for you. No-digging is something for a mod in my opinion.

The question "there is this option, why not that option?" could be asked for hundreds of features that were once in the game. Almost all changes TFP has ever done to the game in its long years of open development have at least one fan saying "But I liked that the other way, please give it back, just as an option".

 
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JCrook1028 said:
Zombies dig because the Devs want them to. Zombies don't dodge.
Are we playing the same game?  Not a night goes by when the zombies don't do that stupid duck when I'm trying to hit them midcenter to head.

 
Are we playing the same game?  Not a night goes by when the zombies don't do that stupid duck when I'm trying to hit them midcenter to head.
Then look to what is causing it. Either something above or below them. They only do it to fit thru small spaces. they DO NOT do it to avoid your attack. It is simply NOT in their coding, at all. Period. End of Story. Full Stop.

 
Roland said:
Maybe TFP is disappointed in George Romero. How about that?


iu


-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 
As far as I have heard the story of digging zombies it went this way: 7days originally already had zombies that could dig and they turned it off for some alphas because it didn't work like they wanted. That is why I think this case has more similarity to a bug than to a new play modus that was added to make the world look more alive.
I see. Now I understand the bug analogy. I had no idea digging was something TFP had been working on previously and were just trying to get it right. Thanks for letting me know this.

Well, actually a lot of people complained about the world feeling empty and the devs made clear that they didn't like that situation either but were constrained by performance. Feral option was one way to combat that. So actually feral sense was something the developers wanted and a lot of players wanted.
This I remember, and yes the biomes (sans the Wastelands at night) did used to feel like they were empty at times. I've noticed that has changed since A20 and that's a good thing. Still not turning on feral sense though....lol.

This is called balancing and is done while developing any game. A game works well and is well balanced if the more effort the player invests the more he gets out. "Features" that give the player safety without effort are not a good balance in a game where survival is a goal.

A game needs this balance to have a long "life". Why do you think Blizzard took so many pains to balance their games so painstackingly? Why do you think those games were so popular and stayed relevant for so long?


I agree with this, and the only light counter I have to it is that 7D2D is a type of game where the player can create their own "balance" so to speak to a certain extent. I like that ability and level of control. But balance for the sake of...well, let's just put it this way. Never put Blizzard and "balance" in the same sentence together. They did good jobs with that on everything except World of Warcraft. I played a Warlock in that game from the beginning until about two expansions ago when I finally retired from the game. And if you know anything about Warlocks and their balance history, then you'll know what road I don't want to see TFP go down and claim balance as the cause.

If I remember correctly, Faatal (who remade the AI for A17) said the no-digging feature would have to be developed anew. I assume this means that he changed the way the AI worked from ground up and that the old code you assume still existing is gone (Maybe he even said this himself, don't know)

To me it doesn't really matter. The no-dig option is for me what the feral-sense option is for you. No-digging is something for a mod in my opinion.

The question "there is this option, why not that option?" could be asked for hundreds of features that were once in the game. Almost all changes TFP has ever done to the game in its long years of open development have at least one fan saying "But I liked that the other way, please give it back, just as an option".


Ah. I did not know the AI had been re-worked from top to bottom, and now it makes sense why nobody has been able to create a mod that removes digging. It's hardwired in to the new code.

Though I would still like to see an option for no digging, I now better understand why it's not there and may never be available. And I can deal with that. In all seriousness, thank you for your responses. Who said there were no more civilized message boards for games around anymore!

Roland said:
Maybe TFP is disappointed in George Romero. How about that?


-Arch Necromancer Morloc


/agree. lol

 
And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.


One thing to keep in mind is that feral sense was added as an option in the first place. It was not added first as a standard feature of the game and then provided an on/off switch later. Digging was added as part of the pathing code. A better example in your favor would be the Blood Moon horde. That was added as a standard feature of the game and then later on an option was added to turn off blood moon hordes. The difference between blood moon horde on/off and digging on/off is the amount of work necessary to make it happen. For blood moon it was a very simple job. Since digging is integrated completely in the pathing coding it is going to be a lot trickier.

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.


These developers are not averse to lots of options. There are two things going on here. FIrst, the game is in active development and the developers want features to be played with and tested. They aren't keen on adding something new just to have everyone turn it off without even giving it a try. Certainly, things often get modded out immediately by those who have that skill (and that does irritate the developers btw) but it is really a small subset of the whole base who do that. Most players will have to play with the new feature the devs want playtested since there is no option to turn it off.

Second, the developers come from a modding background and so from their perspective they have given us the ultimate options menu by exposing the xml files and allowing us to edit them. Set the amount of options available through xml editing next to the options of any game's options screen and you won't think that TFP hates too many options.

There is a time and season to everything and I am certain 7 Days to Die will eventually have an option menu that will rival any game out there once development is finished. Once workshop integration is complete and modlets can be selected like options right from the steam menu, the list of options available for the game that the non-mod-savvy person could choose will be beyond countable.

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game.


No. Conspiracy theories all. Circumstantial evidence does not reveal some causal relationship that some people in the community invent in their minds. There is no TFP campaign to stop players from using their strategies. There is a desire to fix bugs and improve pathing and if those fixes and pathing improvements cause a particular strategy to become obsolete then it was simply collateral damage and not the intent or the goal of the developers. Also, the lion share of the effort in doing those fixes was performed by the player base in discovery. The amount of time needed to discover undesirable exploits would be obscene and TFP largely refrains from doing any of that. The effort to fix most of the bugs that some were using as the basis for their "strategies" really has been minimal. The most recent bug with the arrow slits was fixed in a matter of hours if not minutes.

That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced


Absolutely not. That change was purely for improving their pathing through POI's -- in particular attic spaces as well as some of the irregular holes in walls. You can take me as an official source on that rather than gulping in the speculations of certain internet personalities looking for likes and subscribes...

how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced


Partially true. It is true that TFP wanted to eliminate the surface of deep lakes and rivers as a 100% safe zone as part of their philosophy that nowhere in the game should be 100% safe. I don't think they have completely achieved that goal but swimming zombies was definitely part of it. But it was also part of the general pathing overhaul to help them traverse the terrain better and not get stuck. As far as being able to swim better than us, it is simply because the development of player interaction with water hasn't happened yet. Should be happening soon-- either this upcoming alpha or the next. Then we can better judge player vs zombie swimming abilities. For now it is WIP.

and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 


Had nothing to do with base defense strategies even though it was discovered by players doing base defense strategies. It is all about zombie pathing and making sure they are able to move about the world as intended. The arrow slit blocks were never intended to be impassable. There is nothing about them that appears to be something zombies couldn't walk over. As I already mentioned, most of the work on this fix was done by the community in discovering it. Actually fixing it was a snap. No cool future potential feature was displaced by a programmer spending a portion of his morning fixing that bug. 

And finally...who is complaining that zombies are pathing over previously troublesome terrain without issue now? Sounds to me like TFP is doing its job since zombies that get stuck in terrain and never get to you make for boring gameplay. Most of the chatter I read is a desire for more zombies in the world but I suppose there may be some out there wishing that more zombies would get stuck in the world terrain more often so that the overall impression would be even

fewer zombies. There really can't be very many of those voices but yours is definitely one of them I guess...

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior?


They are aware since they had digging zombies first and then they removed it and then they returned it. Seems like they intentionally chose the state they wanted the game to have after fully exploring both states. It wouldn't hurt anyone to put an option in but it would be a lengthy and involved process since it would also involve redoing the pathing. Perhaps it would have been better if they had made "digging" be a simple AI zombie task separate from the pathing but they did not. It is part of the pathing and it will take a lot of work for them to separate it out and create an on/off switch for it. So it goes to whether they want to put that much effort into it. Maybe they will <shrug>

Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.


Except you don't have to toggle that option off. It is already off by default. You would have to toggle it on and then toggle it off to make your point which I suppose you could do with a shouted "Take that!" at the same time. ;)

 
TFP Weekly Sprint

1. Optimize dynamic mesh for roadways and dirt paths

2. Improve lighting in store_oldwest_02 and house_modern_06

3. Completely &@^! up that one YouTuber's base strategy

 
Then look to what is causing it. Either something above or below them. They only do it to fit thru small spaces. they DO NOT do it to avoid your attack. It is simply NOT in their coding, at all. Period. End of Story. Full Stop.


I'll need some sort of proof other than because you say so, because it happens way to often to be explained away so simply.

 
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I'll need some sort of proof other than because you say so, because it happens way to often to be explained away so simply.


Only the zombies infected by Agent Smith do it. We are trying to stay ahead of the infection rate but it feels like a losing battle...

 
Only the zombies infected by Agent Smith do it. We are trying to stay ahead of the infection rate but it feels like a losing battle...
That reminds me i have a question I don't know about you but am I crazy or does cop and mutated zombie vomit have a higher chance of infection than other damage types of of course not including dogs because I usually get infected Earlish game the 2nd or 3rd time my guy takes vomit damage or dog bit damage.

 
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