PC is A17 removing the much beloved run and gun aspect?

Didn't read the whole thread, but glad this change has happened! Abusing coffee and sprinting backwards was ridiculous.
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True, sprinting backwards forever is a bit unrealistic. But coffee abuse is the only thing keeping me sane in my day job; so as long as God doesnt remove coffee in any of his upcoming patches to life, im happy to continue playing.

For real though, after being informed by someone midway through the thread about the change to base movement speed and the focus to make zombies more of a real threat in A17, ive gone from being annoyed to intrigued and am looking forward to these changes.

On a seperate note to that reply however, I had one of my games bug out on me and i had to start again from day 1. And it was after i died twice on two seperate day 1 restarts that i thought about 2 things. 1. I am bad at this game. 2. Wolves can outrun me when im sprinting backwards anyway so while sprinting backwards by some people is considered cheesy and gamebreaking, it doesnt guarentee survival in every scenario.

 
Just don't let a boar gore you. TFP fed THEM coffee or something because their damage output is seriously buffed in A17.

 
Just by the way. The realism argument is invalid. Nothing is taken out of the game because it is unrealistic. I don't believe that for a second. 7dtd is not trying to be realistic. Except maybe visually.

Backward running speed is reduced to make fighting zombies harder. And it will be, a bit. Melee hardly, you don't ever need to sprint, and if you walk backwards faster in A17, it will even be easier. Fighting running hordes with boots on the ground will also be harder. Again: A bit. But you basically just need to use a few "tactics", that are not particularly sophisticated. Myself, I like the pistol, going for head shots. I like the precision and the satisfaction when you hit the heads of running zombies, while you are running yourself. That already has been disabled by the devs, because the pistol hits nothing anymore, if you don't stand still. Fortunately, it can be modded out to bring back the fun. But in vanilla, you would probably use the shotgun to fight running hordes. Just circle the horde and continuously shoot into the pack with a shotgun. Or, even better, use the crossbow with explosive bolts, or pipebombs, or the rocket launcher.

My gripe with the crippling is that it won't amount to much. It won't lead to the desired effect. People who will have difficulties now to fight running hordes, did not fight running hordes to begin with. They continue to stay in their base. For those who fight them, a fun playstyle is removed, for no good reason.

If you want to make the game harder, without destroying fun, maybe you should ask people who actually play a lot.

 
Just don't let a boar gore you. TFP fed THEM coffee or something because their damage output is seriously buffed in A17.
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Hmmmm, if i kill a boar and eat the meat, do i get the buzzed perk then? I can see this saving me a whole lot of time switching between different food items in inventory. A17 is sounding far too easy with the pigs drinking my coffee for me.

(for real pigs scare me with how much damage they do now, Lord Madmole save our souls)

 
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Just by the way. The realism argument is invalid. Nothing is taken out of the game because it is unrealistic. I don't believe that for a second. 7dtd is not trying to be realistic. Except maybe visually.
Backward running speed is reduced to make fighting zombies harder. And it will be, a bit. Melee hardly, you don't ever need to sprint, and if you walk backwards faster in A17, it will even be easier. Fighting running hordes with boots on the ground will also be harder. Again: A bit. But you basically just need to use a few "tactics", that are not particularly sophisticated. Myself, I like the pistol, going for head shots. I like the precision and the satisfaction when you hit the heads of running zombies, while you are running yourself. That already has been disabled by the devs, because the pistol hits nothing anymore, if you don't stand still. Fortunately, it can be modded out to bring back the fun. But in vanilla, you would probably use the shotgun to fight running hordes. Just circle the horde and continuously shoot into the pack with a shotgun. Or, even better, use the crossbow with explosive bolts, or pipebombs, or the rocket launcher.

My gripe with the crippling is that it won't amount to much. It won't lead to the desired effect. People who will have difficulties now to fight running hordes, did not fight running hordes to begin with. They continue to stay in their base. For those who fight them, a fun playstyle is removed, for no good reason.

If you want to make the game harder, without destroying fun, maybe you should ask people who actually play a lot.
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To be completely accurate... the ability to run and gun with accuracy has been disabled from a Day 1 character. Once you purchase the perks and/or find the gun attachments that tighten the aim you will be able to get those head shots while running because you will have skilled up to that ability. The same is true of decapitation. Stone arrows on day one never decapitate any longer. To get a decapitation you have to advance in the perk that increases the chance for a decapitation to happen.

Some people won't want to use the in-game progression system to earn these abilities during the course of the game and they will just mod in these abilities to have them from Day 1. I suspect that most will be satisfied progressing to the ability within the structure of the dev's intended design much as most people accepted forced crafting and looting timers since perks allowed them to reduce those things. I do imagine there are mods out there that just circumvent that whole system and grant instant crafting and looting from Day 1.

Who knows? Maybe after feedback in experimental they might add backward sprinting to the highest tier of the new Parkour Perk. I'm sure it's something they could do if they decide it's right to have that ability in the game at all. The point is that Madmole was playing a character with zero progression in the video and a lot of cool things will be possible once all the skills and perks are brought online and implemented fully.

 
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To be completely accurate... the ability to run and gun with accuracy has been disabled from a Day 1 character. Once you purchase the perks and/or find the gun attachments that tighten the aim you will be able to get those head shots while running because you will have skilled up to that ability. The same is true of decapitation. Stone arrows on day one never decapitate any longer. To get a decapitation you have to advance in the perk that increases the chance for a decapitation to happen.
Some people won't want to use the in-game progression system to earn these abilities during the course of the game and they will just mod in these abilities to have them from Day 1. I suspect that most will be satisfied progressing to the ability within the structure of the dev's intended design much as most people accepted forced crafting and looting timers since perks allowed them to reduce those things. I do imagine there are mods out there that just circumvent that whole system and grant instant crafting and looting from Day 1.

Who knows? Maybe after feedback in experimental they might add backward sprinting to the highest tier of the new Parkour Perk. I'm sure it's something they could do if they decide it's right to have that ability in the game at all. The point is that Madmole was playing a character with zero progression in the video and a lot of cool things will be possible once all the skills and perks are brought online and implemented fully.
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I obviously don't know how A17 will work regarding perks, in A16 - I had considered that a bug, if you remember - the pistol has an insane spread as soon as you just walk. If you can counter that with perks now, it's certainly an improvement.
The issue with fighting a running horde is another. When you have 10 or more zombies running towards you, while you stand there, still, or walk backwards slowly, you can take out a couple, but then the others are in your face. So you have to start running. And if you can't run backwards, you have to run forward, facing away from the zombies. As soon as you turn around, you slow down and they will catch you again. So you have only two options: Run away from them to create space. Then you can turn around, stand still and land a couple of headshots - rinse repeat. Or you run around the running group in circles and fire into it. That, however, is difficult even with a precise pistol and even if you had the crosshair visible, because zombies will move horizontally, from your perspective, while they are a lot more "stable", if you run backwards and they chase you. If you don't know what I mean, just try it out.

Shooting at zombies while you run backwards and they chase you is a specific playstyle, that cannot be replaced by anything. If that's disabled, the playstyle is just gone. I also doubt that there will be many complaints, from my experience on random servers, most people don't go outside at night. Which, as I mentioned, adds to the tragedy: They disable a playstyle that only a few used. It is probably even some kind of accident, and they just wanted to make melee harder. Oh well.

Speaking of perks: I despise perks. I've modded my game so that all perks are included to skills, and all skills only progress naturally, by doing the corresponding activity. No skill point is ever spent (and none is ever earned).

 
Here is a thought that could solve the problem, if they don't care about us few who fight running zombies:

Make it so that you need something like 2 seconds before you gain speed. Which is, not that it's important, realistic as well. Make it so that when you start running, you don't immediately run at full speed, but need those seconds to accelerate. Then you cannot "sprint" backwards in melee, but still sprint away backwards from running zombies.

Another btw: In melee, it is actually realistic to be able to quickly dash backwards a short distance. Try it out in real life.

 
I obviously don't know how A17 will work regarding perks, in A16 - I had considered that a bug, if you remember - the pistol has an insane spread as soon as you just walk. If you can counter that with perks now, it's certainly an improvement.
The issue with fighting a running horde is another. When you have 10 or more zombies running towards you, while you stand there, still, or walk backwards slowly, you can take out a couple, but then the others are in your face. So you have to start running. And if you can't run backwards, you have to run forward, facing away from the zombies. As soon as you turn around, you slow down and they will catch you again. So you have only two options: Run away from them to create space. Then you can turn around, stand still and land a couple of headshots - rinse repeat. Or you run around the running group in circles and fire into it. That, however, is difficult even with a precise pistol and even if you had the crosshair visible, because zombies will move horizontally, from your perspective, while they are a lot more "stable", if you run backwards and they chase you. If you don't know what I mean, just try it out.

Shooting at zombies while you run backwards and they chase you is a specific playstyle, that cannot be replaced by anything. If that's disabled, the playstyle is just gone. I also doubt that there will be many complaints, from my experience on random servers, most people don't go outside at night. Which, as I mentioned, adds to the tragedy: They disable a playstyle that only a few used. It is probably even some kind of accident, and they just wanted to make melee harder. Oh well.
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I hear you. What's interesting is that Gazz, himself, enjoys running around on horde night. He has shown his base design of "Open Meadow" a number of times. I wonder what his take is on this.* But again, much of this playstyle will become possible as a character progresses. Currently there is no way to progress up to being able to sprint backwards but that could possibly change based on playtesting over the next months. I definitely think the main reasoning on this is nerfing what is seen as an exploit during daylight hours using default setting. In other words, running backwards makes battling daytime walkers way way way too easy. Unfortunately, that leaves the night time running zombies almost impossible to fight if there are enough numbers of them to overwhelm you since you now need to sprint, turn, and fire.

Speaking of perks: I despise perks. I've modded my game so that all perks are included to skills, and all skills only progress naturally, by doing the corresponding activity. No skill point is ever spent (and none is ever earned).
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I'm sure that the current mix of perks can be converted to how you like it done. There are already certain skills that are earned by doing and not by spending in A17 so maybe it will be even easier than in past iterations to make it so for everything.

Here is a thought that could solve the problem, if they don't care about us few who fight running zombies:
Make it so that you need something like 2 seconds before you gain speed. Which is, not that it's important, realistic as well. Make it so that when you start running, you don't immediately run at full speed, but need those seconds to accelerate. Then you cannot "sprint" backwards in melee, but still sprint away backwards from running zombies.
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I think ideas like these are good to further discuss and develop once people are playing and can see the whole picture of what all is different and what needs to be done for their particular playstyle--whether that is to change TFP's mind or to inspire modders.

Another btw: In melee, it is actually realistic to be able to quickly dash backwards a short distance. Try it out in real life.
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I agree that if I walked out into the uncluttered street in front of my house and simply sprinted backwards I could go faster than is depicted in the game. But on uneven forest ground? On streets with clutter and refuse? On desert sand? In the snow? All while aiming a gun and killing enemies?

Since you said "realistic" I'm going to say that in 90% of the locations in the world of TFP it actually is not realistic to let the player sprint backwards without breaking an ankle and I already lived through Alpha 11 once to want the devs to make it realistic in that regard.... ;)

*I guess this is what he said:

Y'all talk like this is A16 with this one change applied. Yes, in this scenario melee vs running zombies would be considerably harder. But what if this was A17 and there were actual melee-centric skills and item mods for more than just doing more damage?

Mind-blowing, I know.
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I didn't see him firing a weapon and that track was amazingly uncluttered. Bet he would've brained himself without the lane lines and a few random cinder blocks, tree roots, holes, and cacti thrown in his path....

Maybe reverse sprinting can be enabled solely on the football field POI but only if you run in circles on the track around the field....

 
I hear you. What's interesting is that Gazz, himself, enjoys running around on horde night. He has shown his base design of "Open Meadow" a number of times. I wonder what his take is on this.* But again, much of this playstyle will become possible as a character progresses.
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It's really hard to tell.

I was strafing far more than backpedaling.

 
I didn't see him firing a weapon and that track was amazingly uncluttered. Bet he would've brained himself without the lane lines and a few random cinder blocks, tree roots, holes, and cacti thrown in his path....
Maybe reverse sprinting can be enabled solely on the football field POI but only if you run in circles on the track around the field....
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I never said he's firing a weapon or does any other thing besides running, but it's a proof that it can be done which was my point as it's doable in real life when you know the terrain and keep checking your surroundings to prevent from running into things that could make you slip and fall. Also in game, you're not always doing this in such hard conditions like you described. When you build your base on the road, that's exactly where it's most realistic to be able to run backwards with the least ammount of problems. Sure in real life you would have to stop to take a good aim to fire a weapon and naturally you would most likely turn around and run if needed, but you wouldn't just "walk" backwards from the threat, at the very least, you would quickly jump back from the threat no matter what is behind you, you know, that basic instinct humans have that helped them survive this long? Yeah, that kind of move is always faster than just walking backwards and that could make a whole lot of difference both in game and real life...

 
Some people won't want to use the in-game progression system to earn these abilities during the course of the game...
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As I understand, there are a lot of perks to buy but one character can buy only some of them. This "in-game progression system" sounds like: we nerf 10 things and you can buy 3 of them back. You can be good an run'n'gun but all your points just went into those perks...

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if the balance is right. But I hope the specialization isn't going to be too narrow because everyone has some perks he can't live without (playstyle). If I only have points to cover those, it's gonna be really boring for me because basically I don't have a choice at all.

It's really hard to tell.I was strafing far more than backpedaling.
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This bugs me, why can't you sprint while strafing only?

I can understand that it seems odd to be able to sprint backward, although an evasive jump would be logical to have. But why can't you sprint and look to your side at 90% angle.

 
Heh, that's hardly an average guy.
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Oh come on, I was doing that for fun when I was a kid. Maybe I wasn't too fast, but the point was that it is doable. It's not like someone's preventing you from doing that in real life.

 
Just by the way. The realism argument is invalid. Nothing is taken out of the game because it is unrealistic. I don't believe that for a second. 7dtd is not trying to be realistic.
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90% of the game is trying to be realistic if we are talking about rl realism... It's just that you can't sacrifice important gameplay parts for absolute real life realism. For example you can't realistically lift stacks of cement etc, but if the game tried to be 100% realistic in that aspect, none would build ever.

Anyway realism in games is about something that is realistic in the game's own universe. For example, if you can abuse coffee to run infinitely with no real penalty, it is both unrealistic, when it comes to the survival elements of this game, and goes against the game's own goals because it would be detrimental for gameplay for obvious reasons, such as... making stamina and regen mechanics obsolete. If you can backpedal with full speed, the game essentially defies the realistic physics it already uses (from gravity to human anatomy etc, pretty much everything physics related). You can't and shouldn't sacrifice "realism" for such a thing, because it doesn't help already important gameplay elements, it actually goes against them.

 
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As I understand, there are a lot of perks to buy but one character can buy only some of them. This "in-game progression system" sounds like: we nerf 10 things and you can buy 3 of them back. You can be good an run'n'gun but all your points just went into those perks...
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if the balance is right. But I hope the specialization isn't going to be too narrow because everyone has some perks he can't live without (playstyle). If I only have points to cover those, it's gonna be really boring for me because basically I don't have a choice at all.
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If anything that isn't your favourite thing is automatically a non-choice then you'll never have any choice ever. In anything. =)

Now if everyone chooses the same things then it's clearly a dominant strategy and a balancing problem. You choosing something is... you making a choice.

The thread title is also highly misleading because it's really about infinite backpedaling with trivial risk, not run&gun gameplay.

 
Wouldn't the slower back-peddle interfere with building? Things like placing blocks as you walk backwards, for example. Seems like it might make things a bit more tedious and feel clunkier (on paper at least).

If they have it to where you can move backwards quicker when say you have a building block or seeds in your hand - then you'd have cheese situations where you could manipulate that by quickly switching back and forth between melee weapon and something else rapidly in order to jump back fast and smack'em like before.

 
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