PC Intellect has a serious problem.

BFT2020 said:
That statement is not true.
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Are you saying meganoth doesn't agree? :) .. You yourself are implying it is the best, you just chose to avoid it this time? It shouldn't be brought into line with the other pipes because players Can choose not to use one?

 
The HP-Buff of the zombies, is in fact a huge buff for crowd control. Anything, that slows down zombies, pushes them back, kocks them down is now even better than befor.

So in my opinion it is a big buff for str and int.  So yes int has a big problem it is now even more OP.

 
theFlu said:
Are you saying meganoth doesn't agree? :) .. You yourself are implying it is the best, you just chose to avoid it this time? It shouldn't be brought into line with the other pipes because players Can choose not to use one?
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No, what is not true was the statement that it was the defacto best choice for everyone.  My current playthrough I didn't have a lot of 7.62 mil ammo so making a pipe machine gun would have been a poor choice since I had a lot of 9 mm and shotgun shells.  Even with a lot of people believing it to be a bit better than the other pipe weapons, that doesn't make it the best choice for everyone.

Also best was in-between double quotation marks, which I use to indicate I am air quoting when I say it  😉  What one person's determination of what is best is not the same for another person.

I been thinking about the pipe weapons actually and planning on trying something when V1.0 goes stable.  I am going to make all the pipe weapons to be on par with their T1 counterparts, except I am going to change what is actually bad with them - mainly zero mod spots and very weak durability (think pipe shotgun as powerful as the double barrel but breaks within a few shots of use and then you can't repair them).

 
BFT2020 said:
My current playthrough I didn't have a lot of 7.62 mil ammo so making a pipe machine gun would have been a poor choice since I had a lot of 9 mm and shotgun shells. 
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I mean, sure, the pipe pistol is also better than the M60 by that logic ;)

By objective measures, the PMG will take more ammo, but that's more because it CAN, the others don't have the fire rate to waste ammo. You can also use PMG with actually aiming, which is the use case that makes it the best.

BFT2020 said:
(think pipe shotgun as powerful as the double barrel but breaks within a few shots of use and then you can't repair them).
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Your way of modifying the game is interesting, for sure; but this one, I dunno. Make them break fast enough and I wouldn't bother using them, make them a tad more durable from that and it's just a duct tape sink to recraft the PMG over and over again ;)  

 
cl0udburst said:
The crank idea is great - none of the other pipe guns can automatically cycle and it's conceivable that the super jury-rigged design doesn't match up well with a reliable self-loading action - think about the fact that the other three (breech-loading rifle and shotgun, double action revolver) became popular and were perfected around the last half of the 19th century, but a reliable fully-automatic self-loader wasn't truly viable until the BAR (1918) at best - maybe fortitude should be starting with a focus on the fists and get rid of pipe MG entirely in favor of a BAR-Tactical Assault Rifle-M60 level 1-2-3 progression. That way, you get a big late-game payoff in firepower but have to cope with worse weapon handling and lower ammo count early. (anyone else think the Tactical AR feels like a very minor improvement over the AK?)
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You know I didn't even think of the idea of a crank gun like a Gatling gun I was thinking maybe three round burst then you have to crank the gun but your ideas much better

 
I start with STR because I generally don't use ranged weapons (except for pulling with a bow while stealthed) until I can create a solid kill structure for horde nights.
Miner 49er is also important to me.

Once I get it to STR level 5 and bring the Clubs perk up to level 3, I diversify greatly. I always underestimate how valuable INT's Physician is.

I would not be averse to giving up Shotguns from STR to balance it better (trade it for Machine Guns?), though I'm not sure it has enough of an INT "feel" to move it there.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

 
Morloc said:
I start with STR because I generally don't use ranged weapons (except for pulling with a bow while stealthed) until I can create a solid kill structure for horde nights.
Miner 49er is also important to me.

Once I get it to STR level 5 and bring the Clubs perk up to level 3, I diversify greatly. I always underestimate how valuable INT's Physician is.

I would not be averse to giving up Shotguns from STR to balance it better (trade it for Machine Guns?), though I'm not sure it has enough of an INT "feel" to move it there.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀
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Shotguns fit strength well enough that i wouldn't want to see it move. 
I always felt it was wierd that Bows and Crossbows were bound together, Thats why i suggested crossbows move over to INT, as it requires no great physical prowess to load and fire one, which fits INT more than a straight firearm would. At least in my opinion. 

 

 
I really don't think intellect needs a ranged weapon.

For some, it seems to be focusing on what one attribute doesn't have compared to other attributes (in this case ranged weapon perk for Int) and not giving much weight to what the class has

For Int we have:

  • Melee weapon that stun locks enemies - even rads


    When upgrade with repulser, crowd control is greatly improved once you learn to knock the enemies back into groups

[*]Ability to have 2 turrets deployed and operating at the same time


  • Faster turret speed, longer deployment distance

[*]Better barter prices

[*]Better quest rewards

[*]Ability to instant cure sprains

[*]Lower crafting costs

[*]Faster crafting times

[*]Ability to craft traps cheaper

[*]XP from electric trap kills





I just got done playing and I had a blast doing a T3 infection quest in the desert.  I managed somehow to wake up the majority of the zombies and spent quite a bit of time running around the house and up ladders, knocking zombies back with my stun baton.  Feral Big Mamma's, feral lumberjacks, wrights, radiated zombies - they all went flying off the roof once I claimed it as mine.

I found it easier to deal with radiated zombies with the non-combat class (Int) then with my last agility playthrough.

 
Slingblade2040 said:
This is my opinion and how i view it, INT class should be played like you actually have some INT.

Lay down spike traps, use hatches, use barb wire to slow down enemies so you can get good headshots with your crap weapons for maximum damage, use molotovs, use pipe bombs. You aren't limited in ways to kill the zombies unless you are limiting how you do it because oh using hatches is cheesy or some other silly rule. 
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Well said,well said,I have mutual feeling,too.
I've always picked skill trees depend on which weapons looted,that means put points into mix skill tree,
so even if INT build seems weaker at the beginning,there's compensate to cover it up.
BTW I don't think INT build is weak from the start,
a stun baton+bone knife are a good match to deal with Zs in most cases,
and of course like you say,INT build should need other "services" to offer higher output,
whether from offensive or defensive perspective:

Put Zs on fire/Let them bleed/Spike or fence to slow them down...etc

geeez,so much options,just get Creative!
This build might not the be the fastest killing Zs style in the first place,
but would be the most interesting ways of playing it 🤪

So after watching Zs get roasted+electrified+bleed out to death,
we should rename it-"debuff king"that is,lol

 
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This thread started out as a discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of attributes, but ultimately I understood it to be a claim that "the strength relationships based on debuff or DPS combinations should be more equalized to a certain extent."

Sadly, there's not much point in commenting on game balance or changes/additions here.

The discussion will likely go something like this: sales figures are up, so vanilla definitely made the right changes, there's a problem with the way you play, if you don't like it, get a mod.

 
binf_shinana said:
This thread started out as a discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of attributes, but ultimately I understood it to be a claim that "the strength relationships based on debuff or DPS combinations should be more equalized to a certain extent."

Sadly, there's not much point in commenting on game balance or changes/additions here.

The discussion will likely go something like this: sales figures are up, so vanilla definitely made the right changes, there's a problem with the way you play, if you don't like it, get a mod.
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The thread started out as me wanting INT to get a ranged option themed to the playstyle that it can use right from the start.  

Again and again and again I have stated that endgame INT is very strong. 
And just as often, I have stated that putting a dedicated firearm into INT will not change a damn thing about it at endgame. By endgame, You have the spare points to dump into another spec and use their weapon. 

The response from everyone is always to go straight to declaring how amazing the turrets are with 2 of them and a Stun Baton. 
Yes, I know. I've said as much. Over and over, i have said this. 

And all of those things are wonderful. When you get them. 
INTs gameplay progression is a flat line into a vertical wall. This is what i would like to see fixed. Part of that is giving the spec a unique ranged weapon. You know, Like the other 4 Attributes have. 

You either have a crappy Pipe Baton, or you have the only melee weapon you will ever use for the rest of the game. 
While Strength, Perception, Agility and Fortitude have a nice curve of progression where their spec theme starts at level 1, INT has no theme until you get your Stun Baton and Turrets. 

Does a Strength build approach combat the same way an Agility build does?
But they both have a dedicated ranged weapon in their trees! That makes them clones right?! Perfectly identical in all ways!

Giving INT its own unique firearm helps to build its gameplay theme from the start instead of a week in when you finally start getting turrets and a stun baton. 

Given that Meganoth actually engaged in discussion rather than just declaring "ALL IS PERFECT AS IS", the thread evolved a bit into suggestions regarding general improvements to INT as a whole to help set it apart from the other specs in flavorful ways without just amping power. 

Goal of the thread was to get INT into a better, more thematic place in the early game without breaking the later stages. Though i see now how few people actually care because they're happy to just bandaid over glaring issues instead of resolving them for a better spec. 

There is a lot that Fun Pimps could do with the 'Intelligent inventor' theme that INT has with its focus on Robotics and tech in general, They just havent. 

As for Pipe MGs, They are objectively the best of the Pipe guns. That doesn't make the other Pipe guns 'useless', just means the underperforming ones need to be brought up to the Pipe MGs level so we can have proper variety. 
Just because you can sidestep an issue, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. 

 
BFT2020 said:
I found using techniques I developed as an agility survivor helps when I play INT survivors.  I kite the zombies as much as possible, but don't have the advantage of DOT from bleeding out.

My current INT playthrough is on Day 13.  My current kit includes a Q5 pipe baton (no mods) with a primitive bow (no mods), a Q1 toilet pistol (extended mag) and Q4 pipe rifle (scope).  I think I am at Q4 sledge turret, so close to unlocking stun baton.  Working in the burnt biome for Trader Jen on T2 quests now.  I haven't put any perks into ranged weapons yet (even the first level).

I did recently a T2 quest for Jen (Infestation quest at the Cozy 8 Motel - I think that is the POI name) and had to deal with some ferals.  I didn't stand up to them, just started to kite the zombies.  Took down one feral with the pistol and damaged another one before I ran out of 9 mm, then finished it off with the pipe baton since I knew it would have been low HP.  The only surprised I had was a feral Big Mama that showed up, so I ended up kiting her by going between floors and taking shots at her with my pipe rifle.

I also don't drop down into rooms through holes in the ceiling / roof if I can't be sure I have an escape route.  In those circumstances, I make my own entrance.

This is why I like playing INT so much.  You have this disadvantage that you have to overcome, but not in the same way of someone that specializes in ranged combat.
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Once your dealing with alot of ferals kiting is basically 7dtd in a nutshell. The guns do far to little damage for being guns and this even gets worse. Try killing a radiated biker in 1.0, its going to take multiple mag dumps to kill it, even if you hit the head with most of those shots, its stupid and unfun. A radiated biker has 1800 base HP btw with a +-15% variance. Even a shotgun with full perks is going to take a absurd amount of shells to kill 1 of those, and often, you can have several running at you at once. The game basically has turned into a hit and run game in v1.0, standing your ground will get you killed fast.

Lyote said:
The thread started out as me wanting INT to get a ranged option themed to the playstyle that it can use right from the start.  

Again and again and again I have stated that endgame INT is very strong. 
And just as often, I have stated that putting a dedicated firearm into INT will not change a damn thing about it at endgame. By endgame, You have the spare points to dump into another spec and use their weapon. 

The response from everyone is always to go straight to declaring how amazing the turrets are with 2 of them and a Stun Baton. 
Yes, I know. I've said as much. Over and over, i have said this. 

And all of those things are wonderful. When you get them. 
INTs gameplay progression is a flat line into a vertical wall. This is what i would like to see fixed. Part of that is giving the spec a unique ranged weapon. You know, Like the other 4 Attributes have. 

You either have a crappy Pipe Baton, or you have the only melee weapon you will ever use for the rest of the game. 
While Strength, Perception, Agility and Fortitude have a nice curve of progression where their spec theme starts at level 1, INT has no theme until you get your Stun Baton and Turrets. 

Does a Strength build approach combat the same way an Agility build does?
But they both have a dedicated ranged weapon in their trees! That makes them clones right?! Perfectly identical in all ways!

Giving INT its own unique firearm helps to build its gameplay theme from the start instead of a week in when you finally start getting turrets and a stun baton. 

Given that Meganoth actually engaged in discussion rather than just declaring "ALL IS PERFECT AS IS", the thread evolved a bit into suggestions regarding general improvements to INT as a whole to help set it apart from the other specs in flavorful ways without just amping power. 

Goal of the thread was to get INT into a better, more thematic place in the early game without breaking the later stages. Though i see now how few people actually care because they're happy to just bandaid over glaring issues instead of resolving them for a better spec. 

There is a lot that Fun Pimps could do with the 'Intelligent inventor' theme that INT has with its focus on Robotics and tech in general, They just havent. 

As for Pipe MGs, They are objectively the best of the Pipe guns. That doesn't make the other Pipe guns 'useless', just means the underperforming ones need to be brought up to the Pipe MGs level so we can have proper variety. 
Just because you can sidestep an issue, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. 
Click to expand...


I'd like the pipe shotgun to have at least a 2 round mag, its already far weaker than the double barrel but this would at least make it somewhat useable. The pipe rifle is basically pointless, as is the pipe pistol. Pipe machine gun is decent but thats only because it has a big enough magazine size to kill a target and it reloads quite fast compared to the other pipe guns.

 
Scyris said:
Once your dealing with alot of ferals kiting is basically 7dtd in a nutshell. The guns do far to little damage for being guns and this even gets worse. Try killing a radiated biker in 1.0, its going to take multiple mag dumps to kill it, even if you hit the head with most of those shots, its stupid and unfun. A radiated biker has 1800 base HP btw with a +-15% variance. Even a shotgun with full perks is going to take a absurd amount of shells to kill 1 of those, and often, you can have several running at you at once. The game basically has turned into a hit and run game in v1.0, standing your ground will get you killed fast.
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I like that many of the zombies are not push-overs anymore.

First of all, in any game with both ranged and melee weapons either ammo is very scarce (which is not the case here) or melee MUST have bigger damage as a compensation for the higher danger of melee combat. That usually means that ranged has unusually low damage if compared to reality. But thats the crux, this is a game, not a simulation.

Secondly this is supposed to be a horror-themed game, there should be enemies where you are NOT perfectly safe in the knowledge that you can always simply mow them down with your gun when you get surprised. In the first trwo weeks feral enemies should be highly dangerous, and until now they never were, unless you played on insane.

That isn't to say that some class that previously relied on simply standing your ground and shoot everything to smithereens might not need some adjustment now. Balancing is a never-ending task.

 
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I started playing 7 days to die about a month ago, and all of me was extremely attracted by an INT build.  A stun baton? Robotic thingies? Electricity and trap? It's my engineer-self dream to play that, sign me up! And I'm not disappointed, at all. Keep in mind I only played an INT build so I do not have any experience with using other weapons for comparison.

Currently starting my 4th solo world + playing one with a friend, difficulty set to warrior, everything else left to default. On my 3rd playthrough I've been incredibly unlucky with my books before the first horde night (despite having all my points only allocated to Electrocutioner and Robotics Inventor) and the trader did not have anything to help me  :classic_laugh:  I wish I had anything something other than my level 4 pipe baton for my first horde night, it was rough but I made it out alive haha I wish we could unlock the robotic sledge earlier on, even if it means reworking it so that each level has a different attack speed.

Right now you unlock the level 1 robotic sledge with 11 tech planet and attack speed is constant (30 attacks per minute) no matter what's the level of the robotic sledge, level 6 being unlocked at 25 books.

I'd like to see this progression:





Sledge level


books


forged iron


attacks per minute






1


6


15


15




2


9


60


18




3


12


105


21




4


17


150


24




5


21


195


27




6


25


240


30







Curious what are your thoughts on that? Just trying to think: how can we can something early other than a pipe baton ^^

 
UncleAo said:
Curious what are your thoughts on that? Just trying to think: how can we can something early other than a pipe baton ^^
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Int tree has a perk book series that also boosts melee weapons and turrets, so I think the crafting system is fine as it is; along with the perks there already.

 
Adam the Waster said:
Agreed the pipe guns are broken most people get the mg

I think maybe after 3 shots or something you need to crank it. Would make it more crappy. 

Pipe pistol isn't too bad but the worst is the rifle by far

That and maybe increase costs like add mechanical parts with the crafting 
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Pie rifle is actually just fine for its high single-shot damage. Pipe shotgun is by far the most garbage pipe gun, with it's HORRIFIC reload speed and (like the rifle) single shot.

 
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